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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
03-02-2013, 04:32 PM
  #851
Nihiliste
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I don't really understand why people push for Sakic to take a key role in the organization. He's a franchise legend but how do we know he has even the slightest inclination of how to run a business? I get that a lot of ex players seem to step into management roles but thats probably why the NHL is such a **** show of a business. These guys have no financial or operative experience or training. I want a team president with a track record and experience when PL eventually steps down/dies but I know we're most likely going to just get Eric or Sakic in instead.

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03-02-2013, 04:35 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I don't really understand why people push for Sakic to take a key role in the organization. He's a franchise legend but when how do we know he has even the slightest inclination of how to run a business? I get that a lot of ex players seem to step into management roles but thats probably why the NHL is such a **** show of a business. These guys have no financial or operative experience or training. I want a team president with a track record and experience when PL eventually steps down/dies but I know we're most likely going to just get Eric or Sakic in instead.
This x 100.

Too many players get key roles in the management as soon as they retire. I don't know much about what Sakic does in the office or if he is just there to watch and learn. But I don't think his perfect wrist shot and skills with the puck are helping him much in the office.

At least in the case of bringing Patrick Roy as a coach he actually has a coaching record, even though I wouldn't bring someone from the QMJHL straight to the NHL...

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03-02-2013, 04:50 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I don't really understand why people push for Sakic to take a key role in the organization. He's a franchise legend but how do we know he has even the slightest inclination of how to run a business? I get that a lot of ex players seem to step into management roles but thats probably why the NHL is such a **** show of a business. These guys have no financial or operative experience or training. I want a team president with a track record and experience when PL eventually steps down/dies but I know we're most likely going to just get Eric or Sakic in instead.
I agree, just using Sakic as an example. PL still pulls too many puppet strings, and his way of running the team is not working. Holding grudges, trading anyone who crosses you, hiring only coaches in the family tree, etc. I don't place much of that at Sherm's feet is all I meant.

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03-02-2013, 05:07 PM
  #854
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I agree, just using Sakic as an example. PL still pulls too many puppet strings, and his way of running the team is not working. Holding grudges, trading anyone who crosses you, hiring only coaches in the family tree, etc. I don't place much of that at Sherm's feet is all I meant.
Yup. He's simply unwilling to relinquish power, yet he's unable to handle the day-to-day duties of running a hockey team. He needs to go, and should've retired a long time ago.

I think Sakic would be okay as a replacement. I don't see him being the micromanager Lacroix is. I would think/hope he'd be more like John Davidson.

Regardless of whether or not Lacroix was responsible for the O'Reilly situation (and he was at least partially), Sherman is still the GM of record. He deserves the lion's share of the blame on this.

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03-02-2013, 05:13 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post

Regardless of whether or not Lacroix was responsible for the O'Reilly situation (and he was at least partially), Sherman is still the GM of record. He deserves the lion's share of the blame on this.
I'll concede to that, but between the lockout in mid-negotiations, the rush to start the season, Avs and ROR being stubborn, this was just a cluster**** waiting to happen.

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03-02-2013, 05:57 PM
  #856
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I think it would be a good idea to get to know your players before negotiating with them. It's not like it came like lightning from a clear sky that he was stubborn and very proud. Add that his fathers whole leadership philosophy is based around organizations respecting your employees and you can see how Avs style wouldn't play that well with O'Reilly.

So there is plenty of blame to go around between all partners.

I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer to the question "why wouldn't you want to lock up a guy like O'Reilly for as long as you can?". I can't understand why Avs wouldn't be all over this. Haven't they seen him play?

That is the main mistake here in my mind.

It turned out to be an expensive lesson for Avs front office. Hope they aren't thick and stubborn enough to not learn anything from it.

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03-02-2013, 06:00 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post

I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer to the question "why wouldn't you want to lock up a guy like O'Reilly for as long as you can?". I can't understand why Avs wouldn't be all over this. Haven't they seen him play?

That is the main mistake here in my mind.

It turned out to be an expensive lesson for Avs front office. Hope they aren't thick and stubborn enough to not learn anything from it.
I agree that a longer deal at 4m/yr would have made sense, but we really don't know what all was discussed early on.

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03-03-2013, 12:22 PM
  #858
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I'd fire Sherman over this. He also did not know the waiver rule and could've taken advantage of it by letting other teams know. The only team that would've done the offer sheet was Columbus or someone with the first waiver pick up and that team's draft pick would likely be the 1st overall.

Sherman's also given out some bad contracts to bottom pairing dmen but that's besides the point. His inability to improve the defence+ this is worth firing imo.

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03-03-2013, 12:34 PM
  #859
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I'd fire Sherman over this. He also did not know the waiver rule and could've taken advantage of it by letting other teams know. The only team that would've done the offer sheet was Columbus or someone with the first waiver pick up and that team's draft pick would likely be the 1st overall.

Sherman's also given out some bad contracts to bottom pairing dmen but that's besides the point. His inability to improve the defence+ this is worth firing imo.
Columbus or any other team wouldn't be able to claim Radar since they would be the ones putting him on the waivers, every other team would have a waiver priority over them.

Sherman is at fault for not knowing the rules or in the case if he knew them for not telling the other teams about that claue in the CBA and thus preventing incoming OS's.

As for him not being able to improve our defense, who exactly should've he tried to add using either the trade route or the FA route? The FA pool was pretty shallow and the only player who was a semi realistic option for the Avs (Carle) and who could improve our defense got horribly overpaid for what he brings to the team and the trade route isn't as simple as it seems, since every team in the league is trying to add to their defensive depth and not the other way around.

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03-03-2013, 12:37 PM
  #860
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Columbus or any other team wouldn't be able to claim Radar since they would be the ones putting him on the waivers, every other team would have a waiver priority over them.

Sherman is at fault for not knowing the rules or in the case if he knew them for not telling the other teams about that claue in the CBA and thus preventing incoming OS's.

As for him not being able to improve our defense, who exactly should've he tried to add using either the trade route or the FA route? The FA pool was pretty shallow and the only player who was a semi realistic option for the Avs (Carle) and who could improve our defense got horribly overpaid for what he brings to the team and the trade route isn't as simple as it seems, since every team in the league is trying to add to their defensive depth and not the other way around.
Haven't you been paying attention to this thread? If he got Hannan instead of Zanon our D would be legendary.

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03-03-2013, 12:41 PM
  #861
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Haven't you been paying attention to this thread? If he got Hannan instead of Zanon our D would be legendary.
Touche.

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03-03-2013, 02:11 PM
  #862
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Columbus or any other team wouldn't be able to claim Radar since they would be the ones putting him on the waivers, every other team would have a waiver priority over them.

Sherman is at fault for not knowing the rules or in the case if he knew them for not telling the other teams about that claue in the CBA and thus preventing incoming OS's.

As for him not being able to improve our defense, who exactly should've he tried to add using either the trade route or the FA route? The FA pool was pretty shallow and the only player who was a semi realistic option for the Avs (Carle) and who could improve our defense got horribly overpaid for what he brings to the team and the trade route isn't as simple as it seems, since every team in the league is trying to add to their defensive depth and not the other way around.
Agree, and I don't think many of us, nor the Avs thought ROB would struggle like he has this year. If ROB was playing like last year, he'd be our #4/5 guy when everyone is healthy and #3/4 as needed. This would leave Zanon, SOB, and Hunny in the 5-7 spots where they belong.

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03-03-2013, 02:15 PM
  #863
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I'd fire Sherman over this. He also did not know the waiver rule and could've taken advantage of it by letting other teams know. The only team that would've done the offer sheet was Columbus or someone with the first waiver pick up and that team's draft pick would likely be the 1st overall.

Sherman's also given out some bad contracts to bottom pairing dmen but that's besides the point. His inability to improve the defence+ this is worth firing imo.
People make statements like this all the time but who has he had a chance to sign recently? He put a offer in to Suter but that was never going to happen. Should he sign Dennis wide man to his ridiculous deal? I'd rather have a general manager that is concious about the future than one that spends money irresponsibly to win now.

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03-03-2013, 02:29 PM
  #864
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People make statements like this all the time but who has he had a chance to sign recently? He put a offer in to Suter but that was never going to happen. Should he sign Dennis wide man to his ridiculous deal? I'd rather have a general manager that is concious about the future than one that spends money irresponsibly to win now.
Garrison's the only FA other than Suter that could've been that EJ partner we need and I doubt we could've kept him from going home.

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03-03-2013, 02:47 PM
  #865
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People make statements like this all the time but who has he had a chance to sign recently? He put a offer in to Suter but that was never going to happen. Should he sign Dennis wide man to his ridiculous deal? I'd rather have a general manager that is concious about the future than one that spends money irresponsibly to win now.
I would have been fine if he would have done nothing and opened up a spot for one of Elliott/Barrie. Or if he would have gambled on a reclamation project. But signing bottom pairing d after bottom pairing d? What was the point of signing SOB, Hunwick and Zanon if you already have EJ, Wilson, Hejda, ROB under contract? One of them fine. But all 3 ? To multi year deals? And we let Mueller walk? And re-signed Jones to big money? I will never get what Sherman was drinking in this offseason. I was indifferent on him before (liked the EJ deal, loved the McGinn trade, hated Liles trade, hated him not firing Sacco,...) but this offseason was just horrible. ROR dispute, handling of the d situation, letting Mueller walk (injury risk and all but why? He still had value and we all knew that he was a potential asset to us) and so on.
What he has done since July 1st (with the exception of the PAP deal but Sakic sealed that) is enough to get him fired IMO.

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03-03-2013, 02:52 PM
  #866
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I know that in hindsight we can see that Barrie's ready to make the jump, but come on now. People were crucifying him last year for just that very thing. So he addressed our depth without getting guys that would be in our kids' way once they were ready. The only issue I have with his handling of the D is we still have Sacco coaching the team. Once he finds us an EJ partner and we get a new coach our D will be very good.

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03-03-2013, 03:44 PM
  #867
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I would have been fine if he would have done nothing and opened up a spot for one of Elliott/Barrie. Or if he would have gambled on a reclamation project. But signing bottom pairing d after bottom pairing d? What was the point of signing SOB, Hunwick and Zanon if you already have EJ, Wilson, Hejda, ROB under contract? One of them fine. But all 3 ? To multi year deals? And we let Mueller walk? And re-signed Jones to big money? I will never get what Sherman was drinking in this offseason. I was indifferent on him before (liked the EJ deal, loved the McGinn trade, hated Liles trade, hated him not firing Sacco,...) but this offseason was just horrible. ROR dispute, handling of the d situation, letting Mueller walk (injury risk and all but why? He still had value and we all knew that he was a potential asset to us) and so on.
What he has done since July 1st (with the exception of the PAP deal but Sakic sealed that) is enough to get him fired IMO.
I don't like having all these depth defenseman either but that alone isn't reason to fire him like some claim.

I don't like the Jones signing either but it's excusable, he would have got something like that in the open market and at the end of the year he and Stastny were playing great hockey together.

There's no point in arguing Mueller with you as you seem to have your mind set, but the guy was out almost two years of hockey. The Liles trade is looking good right now as we got an asset out of a salary dump. Liles isn't the player he used to be and if he was here he could have taken a spot from Barrie.

People like to hate on management because this team hasn't made the playoffs often in the couple years since he's taken over, but over look the important players he's acquired and shed. If I had to fault him for one thing it would be not firing Sacco but I honestly think that will be done when were seriously ready to compete.

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03-03-2013, 06:34 PM
  #868
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I don't like having all these depth defenseman either but that alone isn't reason to fire him like some claim.

I don't like the Jones signing either but it's excusable, he would have got something like that in the open market and at the end of the year he and Stastny were playing great hockey together.

There's no point in arguing Mueller with you as you seem to have your mind set, but the guy was out almost two years of hockey. The Liles trade is looking good right now as we got an asset out of a salary dump. Liles isn't the player he used to be and if he was here he could have taken a spot from Barrie.

People like to hate on management because this team hasn't made the playoffs often in the couple years since he's taken over, but over look the important players he's acquired and shed. If I had to fault him for one thing it would be not firing Sacco but I honestly think that will be done when were seriously ready to compete.
It's one thing to claim that they were getting d-men who wouldn't "get in the way," but it's entirely another to get d-men who couldn't act as placeholders in the first place. And they couldn't, so I really don't see what the point was in getting them.

You can all say they couldn't get better than turnover machine Greg Zanon this offseason, fine. I still don't agree with that, but whatever. Maybe the key was not to get painted into a corner like that by trading away Liles and Quincey to begin with. The Quincey deal was a good one, yes, and they clearly needed to get him out of there (though his shots taken at the organization may be a little more factual than people want to believe). Liles was doing great for the Leafs before he got concussed, however, so those of you who say the Avs were right to get rid of him are only benefiting from hindsight. There's no reason to believe that Liles would be playing like that if he were still here.

And I don't necessarily mind the Avs giving up on Mueller, but bottom line, they've traded away a lot of scoring talent, however enigmatic or unhealthy. It's essentially Sherman painting himself into another corner and being forced to throw $4 million per at David Jones because there's simply no alternative. We have a draft guru who drafted some very talented kids whose stock fell for attitude/work ethic issues, and a general manager who quickly flipped them when they displayed it. To me, that's a GM and a head scout who aren't on the same page. Couple that with TPS's assertion that the coach and management aren't at all on the same page and...

And maybe that's the biggest issue of all. This many-headed monster is simply not in sync. And that monster is a creation of Lacroix, who won't relinquish enough power to the GM and yet won't take charge of day-to-day operations. It's a disjointed mess in Avalanche Land, and it'll continue to be that way until Lacroix is gone.

I still want Sherman gone, but as I have said before, he's merely a symptom of the main problem.

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03-03-2013, 06:48 PM
  #869
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Garrison's the only FA other than Suter that could've been that EJ partner we need and I doubt we could've kept him from going home.
Carle was an option too, but I don't blame Sherman for not wanting to give him six years at $5.5M per for a 40 point defenseman, who's suspect in his own zone.

There just weren't any real good options. They'll turn over this group fairly quick, so who cares.

I don't understand why people continue to cry about letting Mueller and Flash go either. They have plenty of capable wingers with PAP, McGinn, Downie, Landy, Jones, who not only score, they also bring other elements to the table. Mueller and Flash were basically useless if they were scoring, and both had incredible health issues.

How many years were they expected to keep Mueller before just moving on as an organization?

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03-03-2013, 07:00 PM
  #870
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Yup Foppa, I said this before, but I will say it again. The 2012 free agency was filled up with crap except 3-5 players. The depth was also crap.

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03-03-2013, 07:07 PM
  #871
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Yup Foppa, I said this before, but I will say it again. The 2012 free agency was filled up with crap except 3-5 players. The depth was also crap.
The problem going forward now that they can't trade O'Reilly for a defenseman for another year, is the 2013 group looks even worse in terms of offensive D.

Look at this group.

http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?...D&fa_type_id=2

It's basically all aging 35+ year old guys, and Streit is really the only good one. I'm not all that crazy about Ian White, and Whitney's fallen completely off the map.

How are they gonna fix this any time soon? They don't have any real good assets to trade either, unless it's their 1st, and aside from Barrie and Elliott there's nothing that offensive in the pipeline. Anyone they draft is gonna take 4-5 years to really be at an effective top pairing level unless they get lucky.

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03-03-2013, 09:40 PM
  #872
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It's essentially Sherman painting himself into another corner and being forced to throw $4 million per at David Jones because there's simply no alternative

. We have a draft guru who drafted some very talented kids whose stock fell for attitude/work ethic issues, and a general manager who quickly flipped them when they displayed it.

To me, that's a GM and a head scout who aren't on the same page. Couple that with TPS's assertion that the coach and management aren't at all on the same page and...
Painted himself into a corner? How? I think what he did was realize that Jones was a twenty goalscorer and played good at the end of last year. I don't know what you mean by there was no alternative as there were plenty.

What draft Guru are you talking about? if your talking about Pracey you should realize he wasn't around when Stewart and Wolski were drafted. Are you trying to say that we would be better off if we had have kept them?

I'm not sure what you mean by our GM and head scout not being on the same page, please enlighten men. Our head scout drafts who he thinks will be the best player available how is that different than what management wants?

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03-03-2013, 09:59 PM
  #873
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Painted himself into a corner? How? I think what he did was realize that Jones was a twenty goalscorer and played good at the end of last year. I don't know what you mean by there was no alternative as there were plenty.

What draft Guru are you talking about? if your talking about Pracey you should realize he wasn't around when Stewart and Wolski were drafted. Are you trying to say that we would be better off if we had have kept them?

I'm not sure what you mean by our GM and head scout not being on the same page, please enlighten men. Our head scout drafts who he thinks will be the best player available how is that different than what management wants?
What alternatives were there? He had "plenty?" So why then did he throw $16 million at an injury prone winger with questionable hockey sense and erratic production? I actually don't mind Jones, but the Avs made a rather sizable investment in him, which just seems strange because they've let other players go who had just as many question marks.

Okay, Pracey wasn't there. My bad. Still find it strange that this team jettisons players so quickly when they develop "character issues" when it was pretty clear they had those character issues from the beginning, and that's why they were available when the Avs took them. If they don't want these guys, they shouldn't draft them in the first place. That's what I mean by management and scouting not being on the same page. Do I think we'd be better with Wolski still on the team? No. I do think the Avs soured a bit quicker than they should have on Stewart. I'm still okay with the trade, but I read the team didn't take well to some of Stewart's off-ice antics, and that was a big reason he was deemed expendable when he did. Best player available or not, if you don't think the guy will be a good fit, don't take him.

Again, just don't like the fact that Sherman jettisons talent in key areas and leaving himself with very few options. If he builds a winner, great, I will come back here hat in hand. But I don't have confidence that he will.

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03-04-2013, 10:46 AM
  #874
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I don't like having all these depth defenseman either but that alone isn't reason to fire him like some claim.

I don't like the Jones signing either but it's excusable, he would have got something like that in the open market and at the end of the year he and Stastny were playing great hockey together.

There's no point in arguing Mueller with you as you seem to have your mind set, but the guy was out almost two years of hockey. The Liles trade is looking good right now as we got an asset out of a salary dump. Liles isn't the player he used to be and if he was here he could have taken a spot from Barrie.

People like to hate on management because this team hasn't made the playoffs often in the couple years since he's taken over, but over look the important players he's acquired and shed. If I had to fault him for one thing it would be not firing Sacco but I honestly think that will be done when were seriously ready to compete.
I don't really care about the playoffs. If you follow my posting history, I am in the firm group of wanting to tank this year and I am not making friends with my opinion on the state of this team.
Without a doubt I want him mainly fired for sticking with Sacco which I find completely unacceptable. But the ROR fiasco comes second. Our mess at the backend is only the third best reason for me wanting him gone.

My problem is not that he let go of Mueller and Fleischmann. My problem is that he let them walk for free. Just go over to the FLA board or make a thread at the tradeboard and ask for Mueller or Fleischmann. Those guys are considered top5-8 in importance over there right now. And that hurts. If we wanted to reacquire them, we probably would have to give them Siemens or our 1st or something like that. And that is just bad asset management. Mueller was playing 32 games for us. Everyone could see that he was rusty and not in game shape. But everyone also had seen the potential he had. You don't let a guy like this go. Especially not if you can retain him dirt cheap. If you want to get rid of him, sign him to a cheap contract and trade him to Pittsburgh at the deadline if he looks halfway decent (and chances were that he woud).

I hate his asset management. He did some good things no doubt. But he let go of Liles for way to cheap and did nothing to replace him. I hated the Varlamov gamble. It turned out great. But it was too much of a risk for the second worst team of the previous year.

I want PL and his cronies out of this organisation. That includes Sherman. Oh and his interview after matching the offersheet was a disgrace....

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03-04-2013, 11:56 AM
  #875
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Originally Posted by JoemAvs View Post
I don't really care about the playoffs. If you follow my posting history, I am in the firm group of wanting to tank this year and I am not making friends with my opinion on the state of this team.
Without a doubt I want him mainly fired for sticking with Sacco which I find completely unacceptable. But the ROR fiasco comes second. Our mess at the backend is only the third best reason for me wanting him gone.

My problem is not that he let go of Mueller and Fleischmann. My problem is that he let them walk for free. Just go over to the FLA board or make a thread at the tradeboard and ask for Mueller or Fleischmann. Those guys are considered top5-8 in importance over there right now. And that hurts. If we wanted to reacquire them, we probably would have to give them Siemens or our 1st or something like that. And that is just bad asset management. Mueller was playing 32 games for us. Everyone could see that he was rusty and not in game shape. But everyone also had seen the potential he had. You don't let a guy like this go. Especially not if you can retain him dirt cheap. If you want to get rid of him, sign him to a cheap contract and trade him to Pittsburgh at the deadline if he looks halfway decent (and chances were that he woud).

I hate his asset management. He did some good things no doubt. But he let go of Liles for way to cheap and did nothing to replace him. I hated the Varlamov gamble. It turned out great. But it was too much of a risk for the second worst team of the previous year.

I want PL and his cronies out of this organisation. That includes Sherman. Oh and his interview after matching the offersheet was a disgrace....
You're right.
I just checked your profile, and it says, "JoemAvs has not made any friends yet"

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