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Old
03-05-2013, 05:13 PM
  #901
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a)Jones was a UFA. They tend to cost more.
b)When was the last time McGinn scored 27 goals?

His current contract is 1.75M. Why do you think a 43% raise is out of the question? He's on pace for a whopping 12 goals in a full 82 game season. Unless he somehow breaks out next year...
That's not really fair. If you're going to assess his goal per game average over the course of an 82 game season, you might as well do the same for points. He'd be on pace for 49, which is more than Jones ever scored.

I don't think he can command the $4M Jones did as a UFA, but I think he can make a pretty good case for $3M or so if he has a strong finish, and a good year next year.

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03-05-2013, 05:13 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by avs1dacup View Post
a)Jones was a UFA. They tend to cost more.
b)When was the last time McGinn scored 27 goals?

His current contract is 1.75M. Why do you think a 43% raise is out of the question? He's on pace for a whopping 12 goals in a full 82 game season. Unless he somehow breaks out next year...
But also a 49-50 point pace of 82 games, 45-50 point players don't get 2.5m contracts when they are close to UFA, unless it just takes them to UFA status (which I think with McGinn will be 1-2 years). If McGinn quits hitting posts he will net ~12-15 this season, he could very easily have 4-5 more goals.

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03-07-2013, 10:32 PM
  #903
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Is there anyone in here who still thinks Sherman didn't get bent over backwards in the EJ trade.

Stewart a goal and two assists tonight.

What a freaking terrible trade.

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03-07-2013, 10:35 PM
  #904
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Is there anyone in here who still thinks Sherman didn't get bent over backwards in the EJ trade.

Stewart a goal and two assists tonight.

What a freaking terrible trade.
Are you gonna post here whenever Stewart or Shattenkirk gets a point?

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03-07-2013, 10:38 PM
  #905
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Are you gonna post here whenever Stewart or Shattenkirk gets a point?
He could post whenever EJ gets a point but then he would only have 1 post this season.

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03-08-2013, 12:53 AM
  #906
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He could post whenever EJ gets a point but then he would only have 1 post this season.
Yea but you're assuming the idea is not to annoy (aka tr*ll) everyone on the board, in which case he'd have no posts at all.

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03-08-2013, 01:25 AM
  #907
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He could post whenever EJ gets a point but then he would only have 1 post this season.
Or he could post everytime EJ covers for this god awful defense and keeps Varly from having to singlehandedly protect our goal, since that's been the role he's been stuck with.

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03-08-2013, 06:34 AM
  #908
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Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
Are you gonna post here whenever Stewart or Shattenkirk gets a point?
Either that or until he gets acknowledgment that he's right. Which he is.

BTW, Avalanche family with double digit scoring this season:

Duchene - 20 pts
Parenteau - 20 pts
Stewart - 19 pts
Selanne - 17 pts
Tanguay - 17 pts
Fleischmann - 17 pts
Shattenkirk - 17 pts

Stastny - 13 pts
Vrbata - 12 pts
McGinn - 12 pts
Mitchell - 11 pts
Mueller - 11 pts
Winnik - 11 pts
McClement - 10 pts


Have the Avs not become the NY Islanders?

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03-08-2013, 06:35 AM
  #909
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Originally Posted by BrickAHL View Post
He could post whenever EJ gets a point but then he would only have 1 post this season.
LOL. Exactly.

That said, I'm really looking forward to EJ getting back, so we won't have to watch Hunwick anymore.

...
...
...
...
...

...at least, that's what I hope Sacco would do.

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03-08-2013, 06:49 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Either that or until he gets acknowledgment that he's right. Which he is.

BTW, Avalanche family with double digit scoring this season:

Duchene - 20 pts
Parenteau - 20 pts
Stewart - 19 pts
Selanne - 17 pts
Tanguay - 17 pts
Fleischmann - 17 pts
Shattenkirk - 17 pts

Stastny - 13 pts
Vrbata - 12 pts
McGinn - 12 pts
Mitchell - 11 pts
Mueller - 11 pts
Winnik - 11 pts
McClement - 10 pts


Have the Avs not become the NY Islanders?
So Avs should hang on to all players they ever had because we can't risk them putting up points in the NHL?

That you consider Selšnne part of the Avs family shows how bizarre this argument you are trying to make is. I can guarantee that Selšnne doesn't feel the same way and that he is currently part of an organization he feels is more family to him than Avs ever were. Selšnne was in control of where he wanted to be and chose another team, as did Winnik, Fleischmann, McClement.

Vrbata flamed out with three other teams after Avs. Phoenix is pretty much the only place he looked good. Tanguay, while I like him, never has been a guy you can lean on and the teams he is on never go anywhere. Mueller seems to be a similar type of player.

In hindsight, there are probably some players they would have been better off hanging on to, but at the same time they have brought in a lot of players doing very well.

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03-08-2013, 07:30 AM
  #911
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So Avs should hang on to all players they ever had because we can't risk them putting up points in the NHL?

That you consider Selšnne part of the Avs family shows how bizarre this argument you are trying to make is. I can guarantee that Selšnne doesn't feel the same way and that he is currently part of an organization he feels is more family to him than Avs ever were. Selšnne was in control of where he wanted to be and chose another team, as did Winnik, Fleischmann, McClement.

Vrbata flamed out with three other teams after Avs. Phoenix is pretty much the only place he looked good. Tanguay, while I like him, never has been a guy you can lean on and the teams he is on never go anywhere. Mueller seems to be a similar type of player.

In hindsight, there are probably some players they would have been better off hanging on to, but at the same time they have brought in a lot of players doing very well.
LOL. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I'm sure a bunch of Islanders fans have similar sentiments - they defend each individual transaction as good/inevitable/no one's fault, while the players they let go/trade flourish with other teams, while their team wallows at the bottom of the standings. An awesome trifecta.

Joy.

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03-08-2013, 09:26 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
LOL. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I'm sure a bunch of Islanders fans have similar sentiments - they defend each individual transaction as good/inevitable/no one's fault, while the players they let go/trade flourish with other teams, while their team wallows at the bottom of the standings. An awesome trifecta.

Joy.
Almost any team can find guys they used to have who are doing well, but that is like going through the past drafts and saying the team failed for passing on one guy for another, even when at the time it seemed like the right choice. Or saying the 671pts Owen Nolan scored after the trade for Sandis O or the 1015pts scored by Sundin after the trade for Lefebvre and Lemieux (via Wendel Clark) should be used against the Avs.

Flash + Mueller=28pts. They basically are who McGinn and PAP replaced.
McGinn + PAP = 32pts. (+4 for the Avs)
Winnik (got us McGinn) would not be getting as many top 6 minutes on the Avs, but do miss what he brought to the table.
McClement took less money to go to Toronto (not really the Avs control)
Selanne and Tanguay are on the wrong side of their careers and have a total of 8m/yr in contracts.
Stewart and Shatty were the only way we could get EJ, and although missed (Shatty), I'd rather have EJ.
Vrbata, well, its nice he's finally found a home, but it took him 8 years and 4 teams to do so, after leaving the Avs in 2003.


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03-08-2013, 09:52 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Either that or until he gets acknowledgment that he's right. Which he is.

BTW, Avalanche family with double digit scoring this season:

Duchene - 20 pts
Parenteau - 20 pts
Stewart - 19 pts
Selanne - 17 pts
Tanguay - 17 pts
Fleischmann - 17 pts
Shattenkirk - 17 pts

Stastny - 13 pts
Vrbata - 12 pts
McGinn - 12 pts
Mitchell - 11 pts
Mueller - 11 pts
Winnik - 11 pts
McClement - 10 pts


Have the Avs not become the NY Islanders?
If O'Reilly had played from the start, Landeskog didn't get a concussion, and Downie didn't tear his knee, you could probably take those bottom three players off.

Don't know why you would consider Selanne as someone the Avs "lost."

Not to mention, I don't know how many times it is going to be ignored, but Jay Mac took less money than the Avs offered to go to the Leafs.

Take away Winnik's hot start, and he has 4 points in his last 17 games.

Which leaves you Vrabata, Shattenkirk, Flash, Tanguay and Stewart.

We all know how you feel about Shatty/Stewart, but you would still want Vrbata here? and Flash most likely over PAP? In Vrbata's 10 seasons in the NHL, he has broken 50 points twice. I would hardly consider it a disappointment the Avs cut ties with him. You can't keep every single NHLer who puts up marginal points.

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Old
03-08-2013, 10:27 AM
  #914
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Almost any team can find guys they used to have who are doing well, but that is like going through the past drafts and saying the team failed for passing on one guy for another, even when at the time it seemed like the right choice. Or saying the 671pts Owen Nolan scored after the trade for Sandis O or the 1015pts scored by Sundin after the trade for Lefebvre and Lemieux (via Wendel Clark) should be used against the Avs.

Flash + Mueller=28pts. They basically are who McGinn and PAP replaced.
McGinn + PAP = 32pts. (+4 for the Avs)
Winnik (got us McGinn) would not be getting as many top 6 minutes on the Avs, but do miss what he brought to the table.
McClement took less money to go to Toronto (not really the Avs control)
Selanne and Tanguay are on the wrong side of their careers and have a total of 8m/yr in contracts.
Stewart and Shatty were the only way we could get EJ, and although missed (Shatty), I'd rather have EJ.
Vrbata, well, its nice he's finally found a home, but it took him 8 years and 4 teams to do so, after leaving the Avs in 2003.
I'm sure a bunch of Islanders fans have similar sentiments - they defend each individual transaction as good/inevitable/no one's fault; while the players they let go/trade flourish with other teams; while their team wallows at the bottom of the standings. An awesome trifecta.

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03-08-2013, 10:30 AM
  #915
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Selanne was never part of the Avalanche family.

He was a lame Duck wearing burgundy & blue.

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03-08-2013, 10:53 AM
  #916
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I'm sure a bunch of Islanders fans have similar sentiments - they defend each individual transaction as good/inevitable/no one's fault; while the players they let go/trade flourish with other teams; while their team wallows at the bottom of the standings. An awesome trifecta.
So by repeating yourself are you trying to say if the Avs kept all those players, the team would be better than it is currently? Or are you stating that another GM would have had better foresight and kept those players and this team would be better? I really do not understand your point of driving the Islanders comparison. This team has not reached the Islanders level of consistent "wallowing".

This is not the first time this Franchise has struggled through lean years to build a very good team. It is even more difficult now with a salary cap, lockouts, and better overall parity in the league to improve quickly. If you feel that this team is truly worse off now than 2-3 years ago and is set to wallow away with no improvement in the next 1-2 years, then that is fine. I'd strongly disagree with you, and consider that you may be one of the many fans who are habitually "half empty" fans.

In the eyes of a "half empty" fan, this team will always be the Western Islanders until they lose in the playoffs a couple times, then they will be the Sharks or Nucks. If the team does not win The Cup every year, they are obviously run by poor management and are a poor team who will never meet expectations.

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03-08-2013, 11:08 AM
  #917
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So by repeating yourself are you trying to say if the Avs kept all those players, the team would be better than it is currently? Or are you stating that another GM would have had better foresight and kept those players and this team would be better? I really do not understand your point of driving the Islanders comparison. This team has not reached the Islanders level of consistent "wallowing".

This is not the first time this Franchise has struggled through lean years to build a very good team. It is even more difficult now with a salary cap, lockouts, and better overall parity in the league to improve quickly. If you feel that this team is truly worse off now than 2-3 years ago and is set to wallow away with no improvement in the next 1-2 years, then that is fine. I'd strongly disagree with you, and consider that you may be one of the many fans who are habitually "half empty" fans.
You may consider me that if you wish - it is entirely your prerogative.

But I don't believe it's accurate. In truth, I don't really mind so much if the team makes transactions, if they don't make the playoffs during a rebuild, if they make round 1/round 2, etc. I pay more attention to whether (I believe) the management of the team is doing the right things. And I believe that I speak out when I both agree and disagree with what management is doing.

So with that said, I may seem like a 'half empty' guy, because I strongly disagree with a number of ways the team has been doing things:

- The continued ridiculous insistence on hiring in-house people, when there are obviously better candidates outside.
- The hardline contract stances which allow/cause good talented players to leave.
- The insipid trades/comebacks of Forsberg and Foote.
- The team-weakening overpayment in the Erik Johnson trade.
- There are several more.

I certainly don't wish the team to be crummy, and have been wholly on board for this rebuild (in fact, I called for it to begin back in 2006-07). But I believe that a number of repeated, serious mistakes are being made, and the team is looking like a bottom dweller. Again.

Hence, my Islanders comment.

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03-08-2013, 11:37 AM
  #918
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You may consider me that if you wish - it is entirely your prerogative.

But I don't believe it's accurate. In truth, I don't really mind so much if the team makes transactions, if they don't make the playoffs during a rebuild, if they make round 1/round 2, etc. I pay more attention to whether (I believe) the management of the team is doing the right things. And I believe that I speak out when I both agree and disagree with what management is doing.

So with that said, I may seem like a 'half empty' guy, because I strongly disagree with a number of ways the team has been doing things:

- The continued ridiculous insistence on hiring in-house people, when there are obviously better candidates outside.
- The hardline contract stances which allow/cause good talented players to leave.
- The insipid trades/comebacks of Forsberg and Foote.

- The team-weakening overpayment in the Erik Johnson trade.
- There are several more.

I certainly don't wish the team to be crummy, and have been wholly on board for this rebuild (in fact, I called for it to begin back in 2006-07). But I believe that a number of repeated, serious mistakes are being made, and the team is looking like a bottom dweller. Again.

Hence, my Islanders comment.

Cannot see much of another option, given the assets and comparative value at the time, to get a player like EJ.
(I admit that outside of him being a hard to find power forward, I was not high on Stewart. Seemed to have less drive than he shows now, and seemed to, for lack of a better term, "pout" anytime there was struggles for him.)

I agree with the bolded generally, but believe that the last 2-3 years have been much better for the FO than the years previous. Where as it seems the comparison you use (Isles) has yet to show much improvement or change in their approach to team building.
I think both teams current struggles can be blamed as much on ownership as the FO though. I also feel bad for Sherman because I think the puppet master that is PL still dictates much of the coaching and player negotiations and limits what Sherman can freely do.

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03-09-2013, 05:10 PM
  #919
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Shattenkirk has two assist and Stewart has one.

Sherman is an idiot.


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03-09-2013, 09:20 PM
  #920
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Shattenkirk has two assist and Stewart has one.

Sherman is an idiot.



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03-09-2013, 09:29 PM
  #921
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Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm a bit drunk right now.


Sorry Heebs

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03-09-2013, 10:59 PM
  #922
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Either that or until he gets acknowledgment that he's right. Which he is.

BTW, Avalanche family with double digit scoring this season:

Duchene - 20 pts
Parenteau - 20 pts
Stewart - 19 pts
Selanne - 17 pts
Tanguay - 17 pts
Fleischmann - 17 pts
Shattenkirk - 17 pts

Stastny - 13 pts
Vrbata - 12 pts
McGinn - 12 pts
Mitchell - 11 pts
Mueller - 11 pts
Winnik - 11 pts
McClement - 10 pts


Have the Avs not become the NY Islanders?
How far back are we gonna go with that list? Tanguay, Selanne, and Vrbata weren't even during Sherman's tenure. We can't hang on to everyone for ever. McLement turned down a much better offer from the Avs, and Winnik was sucking and asking for the moon at the same time.

Mueller and Flash's replacement in PAP is leading that list, and Downie would be contributing a lot as well if he wasn't done for the season. Meanwhille Mueller has only been healthy for two months, and who know what would have happened with Flash if he were playing half his games in Denver's altitude.

Not to mention replacement's McGinn and Mitchell are outscoring Mueller, Winnik, and McClement.

If we're talking about the ex Avs let go shouldn't we list the Wolsiki's, Arnason's, Quincey's, Guite's, Hensick's, Raycroft's, Hannan's, Cohen's, Cumiskey's, Carmen's, and Galiardi's too?

Every team has a similar list, and if anything I think you actually pointed out the Avs are in better shape with PAP, McGinn, Downie, and Mitchell than Mueller, Flash, and McClement.

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03-09-2013, 11:09 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Either that or until he gets acknowledgment that he's right. Which he is.

BTW, Avalanche family with double digit scoring this season:

Duchene - 20 pts
Parenteau - 20 pts
Stewart - 19 pts
Fleischmann - 17 pts
Shattenkirk - 17 pts

Stastny - 13 pts
McGinn - 12 pts
Mitchell - 11 pts
Mueller - 11 pts
Winnik - 11 pts
McClement - 10 pts


Have the Avs not become the NY Islanders?
Ignoring the 3 that are irrelevant to Sherman, the only ones that I'm upset about losing are Stewart and Shattenkirk. Stewart I can even live with since we got EJ, but giving up both for Johnson is simply too much.

Flash/Mueller/Winnik were arguably replaced with Parenteau/Mcginn/Downie and to be honest I miss Winnik's PK abilities a LOT more than I miss his 11 points. He always starts off the year hot and there's no way I'd pay him the 2.5/year he was asking for before he priced himself out of the market and had to settle with the ducks. Mcclement I also really wish we had kept but we can't really help it that he chose not to sign here.

We picked up Winnik for a 4th. We can replace him in FA or with a similar trade quite readily. I think we could have realistically afforded to take a risk on Mueller for 1 more year but I can understand why they didn't after he played a hanadful of games over 3 years.

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03-09-2013, 11:18 PM
  #924
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Ignoring the 3 that are irrelevant to Sherman, the only ones that I'm upset about losing are Stewart and Shattenkirk. Stewart I can even live with since we got EJ, but giving up both for Johnson is simply too much.

Flash/Mueller/Winnik were arguably replaced with Parenteau/Mcginn/Downie and to be honest I miss Winnik's PK abilities a LOT more than I miss his 11 points. He always starts off the year hot and there's no way I'd pay him the 2.5/year he was asking for before he priced himself out of the market and had to settle with the ducks. Mcclement I also really wish we had kept but we can't really help it that he chose not to sign here.

We picked up Winnik for a 4th. We can replace him in FA or with a similar trade quite readily. I think we could have realistically afforded to take a risk on Mueller for 1 more year but I can understand why they didn't after he played a hanadful of games over 3 years.
You can't just limit that trade to being EJ for Shattenkrik and Stewart though. The Avs picked up a very good defensive player in McClement who for whatever reason was dead set on signing with the Leafs, and an 11th overall pick, and the Blues picked up a 2nd. An 11th overall pick carries HUGE value, even if you ignore the player the Avs got, and the seemingly very strong season he's been having this year.

Not to mention how do you quantify EJ's overall value to the team in a stat? You just can't. I still say a player like that is much harder to find, and easier to build your top pairing around than an offensive D like Shattenkrik. I'll take an EJ and an offensive D pairing over a Shattenkirk and two way D pairing any day.

You make a good point with Winnik though. He's very much an early starter offensively, then he settles into his normal PK and defensive role during a full 82. That's imminently replaceable in my eyes, and not even worth bringing up with the wingers they brought in since then.

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03-09-2013, 11:38 PM
  #925
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You can't just limit that trade to being EJ for Shattenkrik and Stewart though. The Avs picked up a very good defensive player in McClement who for whatever reason was dead set on signing with the Leafs, and an 11th overall pick, and the Blues picked up a 2nd. An 11th overall pick carries HUGE value, even if you ignore the player the Avs got, and the seemingly very strong season he's been having this year.

Not to mention how do you quantify EJ's overall value to the team in a stat? You just can't. I still say a player like that is much harder to find, and easier to build your top pairing around than an offensive D like Shattenkrik. I'll take an EJ and an offensive D pairing over a Shattenkirk and two way D pairing any day.

You make a good point with Winnik though. He's very much an early starter offensively, then he settles into his normal PK and defensive role during a full 82. That's imminently replaceable in my eyes, and not even worth bringing up with the wingers they brought in since then.
I mean you're right it's

Stewart, Shattenkirk, 32nd
EJ, 11th, McClement

If you look at that as Stewart for EJ, Shattenkirk (value at the time) for 11th, 32nd for McClement, the first two parts sound ok in theory, and 32nd for McClement is just god awful.

But, we gave up a quality power forward, a young #2/3 offensive dman in Shattenkirk, and a very early 2nd for a #2 shutdown dman, and two risky assets in an unknown but high value draft pick and a veteran defensive player who was not far from UFA eligibility. That's not even taking into account the risk that their pick was mindbogglingly top-10 protected.

I think it falls on our pro scouting for not understanding what they had in Shattenkirk. Barrie is good but I don't think he displays the same level of vision and positional hockey sense that Shattenkirk possesses. They also perhaps didn't understand fully what they were getting in Johnson - the trade would be great if he was a 40-50 point dman but I don't really think he has the creativity or vision for that. I know we're a bad team but it looks like he's settling more into a 20-30 point guy.

Ultimately I'm happy to have EJ on the team and I know Armstrong wasn't willing to do the trade without Shatty but I feel like just like the Varlamov trade it was a really big risk to take for a rebuilding team and perhaps not the most prudent possible asset management. If we had waited for example EJ's value may have continued to dwindle.

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