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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
11-30-2011, 11:48 AM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
EJ and Varly were not added to lead us to a championship this season. They were brought in to help lead us to a championship in a couple of years. Both have the raw talent to do so, both have shown the flashes of great play you want young players to show. Now both still need to grow a lot, like the rest of our young core, and in this keeping Sacco around is a mistake, although that's a mistake that I'm not sure Sherman alone is responsible for. But that's the only significant mistake on Sherman's resume.
No one expected a Stanley Cup this season, or even the next one. I can't speak for everyone else, but I was expecting a progression, not a regression, which is what we're seeing.

And while you clearly disagree, we've listed plenty of significant mistakes on Sherman's resume.

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11-30-2011, 12:24 PM
  #202
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Here is my take on your comments:
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'm sorry but if anything, this viewpoint is stretching the truth, not the other side. A lot of the reasons this team is close to being where it should be has to do with draft picks, and amateaur scouting. That's why they have Duchene, Landeskog, O'Reilly, Hishon, Elliott, Barrie, and Siemens. Other parts like Staz, Jones, and Hejduk were not his doing either.
Agree that the scouting staff does all the work on this issue but the GM ultimately decides who he wants to draft to fit his vision. You might argue that PL has a lot to say about it but I just can't believe that a GM would just sit back and let the head scout make the decision on who to draft. If other GMs get credit for how they well they build their team through the draft then Sherman deserves the same.

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The financially motivated trade of Smyth brought back a good but injury prone 2nd pairing D in Quincey, but Smyth is still scoring and leading with 12 goals and 24 points in 24 games, and only a year left on his current deal.
At the time of the trade Smyth was on the decline and had (still has) an expensive contract. The only reason he is doing so well is that he is back in Edmonton where he loves to play. Most people were happy with the return except maybe for the 5th rounder. The pick could have been higher but Quincey was a good return for a huge cap dump.

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Who knows what happened with Anderson, but he traded him straight up for a goalie with much lower value, who then sucked, and then he let him go to find him leading all goaltenders this year with a 1.31 GAA and a .951%.
Don't understand your proble with this one. Anderson was leaving anyway. We were going to lose for nothing and besides one half of a season, he had been doing average with the Avs. I don't think one person here wanted the Avs to retain Elliott so what he is currently doing this year is irrelevant. Nobody saw that coming. Blaming Sherman for not seeing it is unfair. He did what the fan wanted him to do.

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EJ's trade is basically a wash at this point, but the point is that while EJ is still young, it was expected that he would take that next step in his developement and grab the reins of this team with his play. He hasn't done that yet and while looking solid, he is not any closer to a true number one D than he was with St. Louis.
Agree. We'll have to wait on this one.

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Overpaid by a lot for Varly, who while he also is still too young to fully evaluate the trade, hasn't yet taken the reins as the Avs true number one goalie that can steal games, and make consistent big saves when needed, as hoped.
Another one we'll have to wait to assess fully. The problem with this trade is that the overpayment was at the time of the trade. Varly was 3rd on their depth chart and was believed to leave for the KHL. One would think that the Avs would have been able to get him for less but unfortunately we were not part of the negotiations so who knows how it went. Maybe another team came forward with a good offer and Sherman was afraid of losing him. However if Varly reaches his full potential that many here believes and finally becomes the goalie that we have been missing for so long since Roy, I have no doubt that he will be worth a lottery pick and a second rounder. By the way I also thought that we would go the Vokoun way but I don't mind the trade so far. Even though he hasn't done as well as we want, he is not the problem right now.

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Signed Jan Hejda to a four year deal, as a top pairing partner to EJ. Looked good at first, but has quickly regressed to a very mistake prone defenseman in any role.
Another one I don't understand why you rate him low on. At the time of the trade, everybody here were really happy with the move. Maybe one year too many on the terms but we all thought he would be what EJ needed. Can't really blame him for the coach mishandling the player except for not firing the coach. It was a good move and with a different coach, this trade could still look like a very good move in the future.

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Even some of his lesser moves don't look great in hindsight:

He let a still capable, veteran presence, heart and soul Lappy walk to sign a reasonable $1.166 M deal.

He brought back Aranason for two years for some inexplicable reason.

He let McCormick go and succeed as a fan favorite 4th liner that can chip in points in Buffalo.

Traded a prospect with decent value in Cohen for another undersized offensive defenseman the Avs didn't need, who turned out to be their worst defenseman.

Let another gritty veteran, heart and soul and capable Matt Hendricks walk to sign a reasonable $825k.
Arnason was before him unless you take into account that he was the assistant GM. However he you say he is not responsible for the drafting then you have to say that he was not responsible for moves as assistant GM. I really dislike Arnason but to FG's defense, Arnason had a pretty good year just before the signing. The problem was signing him for 2 years.

Lappy wanted more money and a 3 year contract. It was too much for the Avs at the time. Hated losing him though but had to be done. He still got his long term contract with Philly but he had to settle for less money he wanted.

McCormick - Really who cares?

Cohen was overrated a lot in those days. I was saying it before the trade that all people were saying about him was always centered on his big shot. It takes a lot more than a big shot to make it and remain in the NHL. Not a big loss. The problem was what we got in return and with that I agree with you. Didn't need another small PMD and that one actually made us a worst team.

Hendricks - Hated to lose him as I was a big fan. However the problem with him was that he wanted a one-way contract. It wasn't the amount. I think the Avs were ok to pay him 825K for what he was bringing. 4th liner are a lot easier to replace so they let him go.

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Let Flash go for unknown reasons, and put up 10 goals and 23 points in 23 games with Florida.
Again I don't think we can blame him for letting him walk. He had health issue related to high altitude. He was a PPG player while with us but it was a very small sample (22 games). There were lots of complaints at the time with him only showing at the end of the games which certainly doesn't fit the type of players the Avs are after. Yes he had chemistry with Duchene but again it was a small sample and couple that with his past record with WAS and it was certainly a risk to re-sign him at the money he wanted even if it was a lower amount that he signed for with FLO.

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Couldn't get more than a 2nd rounder for Liles coming off a 46 point season, and now he's on pace for his best season ever with 54 points.
There were always lots of talk of trade regarding Liles in the past. If true, it is obvious that they got the maximum they could get for him. He is always hot coming out of the gate so let see if he keeps it up. We had to get bigger and we had lots of PMDs in the system so not a big loss. Our D is one of the best in the league in scoring and I believe we got stronger defensively so better a second rounder than nothing.

Quote:
Signed Lindstrom as a depth scoring forward and back up plan to the departed Flash and concussed Mueller, but he has shown no chemsitry with the team, or any form of consistent presence of any form. He has now been waived.
A move that didn't pan out but it was a very low risk/high reward type of move. I liked it at the time and still don't blame him for trying. The reason he is being moved is his defensive play and Elliott forcing FO to keep him.

Quote:
Signed Kobasew as a depth scoring forward, who like Lindstrom has shown no chemistry with the team, and no consistent presence on the ice, whether offensively or physically.
I think Kobasew is avery good signing if they keep him on the 4th line. He can also fill in on the 3rd if need be.


Quote:
Positives:

Daniel Winnik has become a solid 3rd line winger for a 4th rounder.

Ryan O'Byrne has become a dependable, and physical 3rd pairing D-man for a decent prospect who's role we had filled.

SOB was a good low risk UFA signing and has exceeded expecations as a solid second pairing D with a mean streak and unexpected leadership.
Love all these trades. Agree with you.

As far as coaching is concerned, I said it before. I think they have a plan and they are waiting for something. I think he has the full support from PL regarding the wait. I hate it but I can only sit back and wait to see what the plan is. I believe they are waiting for Roy. Are they trying to find an interim coach until then...we'll see.

Overall I am still happy with Sherman. I want to see what a new coach can do with what we have before we trade anybody or change the GM.

Sorry for the long post.

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Old
11-30-2011, 12:36 PM
  #203
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I find it hilarious that Sherman is not only blamed for the Anderson for Elliot trade, but also for letting Elliot go now that he is playing well for the Blues. Of course if he had re-signed Elliot it would have been proof he is the worst GM ever. And that Elliot is now playing better than Anderson this year doesn't make the original trade good although by the internal logic of the complaint it should.

That's some creative thinking making a minor trade involving two very average goaltenders that were both having ****** seasons into a big mistake by Sherman. It wasn't a big deal back then and it's not a big deal now.

And this is a pattern I see recurring in these efforts to paint Sherman as a bad GM. Blowing minor moves way out of proportion.

He's made two big moves. The EJ and the Varlamov one. We can start evaluating those in a couple of years. The rest of his moves barely register on the Richter scale.

Hejda was a semi-big splash but I have to believe he can be a much better player than he is showing. Everything about how he is playing currently makes no sense. I think eventually he'll settle down and provide average solid defense. Which is all we got him for.


Last edited by Freudian: 11-30-2011 at 12:42 PM.
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11-30-2011, 01:42 PM
  #204
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Man I have my work cut out here. I guess I should have known so I'll try to back it up with some clarification. I'll never understand why some people need to nitpick little things though and miss the whole point. It's not like I made any outlandish negative statements about any of the moves individually.

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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
God damn do we have some impatient fans. The Sakic/Foppa/Roy era really messed some of you guys's expectations up, huh?
I don't understand your mentality with this post. It's like the anti homer guy that gives people crap for saying the officiating has been bad, when it has. Or that someone is being impatient for simply laying out a list of moves that did not work out as expected to counter the point he has been a "solid" GM.

Just because there are people out there that complain about trivial things when things are going well, doesn't mean you have to go completely to the other side of the scale and not call a spade a spade. Quit playing this "you guys are spoiled" card. It's not an excuse for the condition of the team right now. He's has not been among the list of worst GM's ever, but he hasn't been that good based on his results so far.

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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
EJ and Varly were not added to lead us to a championship this season. They were brought in to help lead us to a championship in a couple of years. Both have the raw talent to do so, both have shown the flashes of great play you want young players to show. Now both still need to grow a lot, like the rest of our young core, and in this keeping Sacco around is a mistake, although that's a mistake that I'm not sure Sherman alone is responsible for. But that's the only significant mistake on Sherman's resume.
I agree Sherman is not really responsible for Sacco or who comes after him. I believe that's PL's decision.

As for EJ and Varly, they definitely need to be given time and a bit of patience. However, I would disagree they were brought in with the expecation they would be playing at the level they are now. Especially Varly. He was expected to be the clear starter that consistantly make big saves and give his team a chance to win. He's played well but he hasn't found consistency, and hasn't been able to bail his team out (despite it being a very tough job) from their lack of scoring. A goaltender should be able to play up to the level he's capable of the first season after a trade like that. Otherwise the likelyhood that he will ever put it together is pretty low.

EJ, also I would argue was expected and hyped to be closer to that true #1 this year, though like I have said, I have no problem with being a bit more patient with him.

The main point of my post was to show that the vast majority of his moves have either not received market value in return, overpaid, backfired, or at best are a wash because they haven't panned out yet. It was to show a consistant theme.

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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I find it hilarious that Sherman is not only blamed for the Anderson for Elliot trade, but also for letting Elliot go now that he is playing well for the Blues. Of course if he had re-signed Elliot it would have been proof he is the worst GM ever. And that Elliot is now playing better than Anderson this year doesn't make the original trade good although by the internal logic of the complaint it should.

That's some creative thinking making a minor trade involving two very average goaltenders that were both having ****** seasons into a big mistake by Sherman. It wasn't a big deal back then and it's not a big deal now.

And this is a pattern I see recurring in these efforts to paint Sherman as a bad GM. Blowing minor moves way out of proportion.

He's made two big moves. The EJ and the Varlamov one. We can start evaluating those in a couple of years. The rest of his moves barely register on the Richter scale.

Hejda was a semi-big splash but I have to believe he can be a much better player than he is showing. Everything about how he is playing currently makes no sense. I think eventually he'll settle down and provide average solid defense. Which is all we got him for.
I had a feeling at least one person was going to nitpick at this, but I was hoping they would get the general theme of what was being said. You notice I didn't harp on any one trade or move. It's not about one move, it was about a string of decisions he made that didn't pan out as hoped.

Hence the idea that he trades Anderson for a goalie who had much less trade value because he had proven less as a #1, and struggled much worse and for longer. Then Elliott struggled on the Avs and he let him go. Then goes on to be the best goaltender in the league so far this year.

Obviously this isn't about each decision he made here. It's that the decisions he makes do not turn out well. Even when he tried to second guess himself and undo what he did, it doesn't look that great.

For the record, like everyone else I had no problem with letting Elliott go, and don't hold that against Sherman, but that is not the point I was getting at. It's about results, and this was another example of him not achieving them.

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Old
11-30-2011, 01:57 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I had a feeling at least one person was going to nitpick at this, but I was hoping they would get the general theme of what was being said. You notice I didn't harp on any one trade or move. It's not about one move, it was about a string of decisions he made that didn't pan out as hoped.

Hence the idea that he trades Anderson for a goalie who had much less trade value because he had proven less as a #1, and struggled much worse and for longer. Then Elliott struggled on the Avs and he let him go. Then goes on to be the best goaltender in the league so far this year.

Obviously this isn't about each decision he made here. It's that the decisions he makes do not turn out well. Even when he tried to second guess himself and undo what he did, it doesn't look that great.

For the record, like everyone else I had no problem with letting Elliott go, and don't hold that against Sherman, but that is not the point I was getting at. It's about results, and this was another example of him not achieving them.
Even if Anderson for Elliot was purely for value, it's such a minor trade that it doesn't matter.

I think there were other factors involved with Andy being beyond brutal in his last handful of starts and going on a personal leave while on the road the week before the trade. I think it was a matter of getting him out of here no matter what.

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11-30-2011, 02:32 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by hek View Post
Yet you leave out his play the prior two seasons. His last two years with LA he looked to be on the decline and his production was no where near his cap hit. Smyth has had a resurgence this year certainly and would no doubt help the Avs right now. But Smyth does play a physical game, is aging and has a pretty large cap hit. As you mentioned it was ultimately a cap dump, but Sherman still pulled a solid, though sometimes inconsistent, top four defenseman. I don't know what more you really can expect out of a cap dump.
True, and that's a fair point. The idea however is that rationale behind the move (other than purely financial) was that Smyth was going to be washed up and completely over paid. He isn't and is producing a PPG through 24 games, skating very well, and providing the kind of leadership this team has needed for the last few years.

In return, they essentially only received Quincey, who I liked the first few months he was here, and so far this season, has not provided much due to injury and lack of confident play.

Like i mentioned in my last post a few times, and will do so again just to be clear. It's not about one move, it's about the results not really speaking for themselves.

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Originally Posted by hek View Post
What value did Anderson have at the time of the trade? When Anderson was traded he had a save percentage of .897% and had only been a starting goaltender in the league for a season and a half. I don't see much value there. And what on earth up to this point has Elliot ever done that warranted bringing him back?.
To be clear again, I have no problems with letting Elliot go. I'm not trying to cut Sherman with a double edged sword by giving him crap for aquiring him and letting him go. It's that both decisions didn't work out...once again.

Anderson's trade value was not high. Elliot's was basically nothing. Anderson's 09/10 season gave him more value becuase Elliot never had a season like that. Money didn't come into play because they're contracts were both up at the end of the year.

Again, by itself, nothing to harp on. Anderson while he has looked pretty good in a few games this season has also had a few poor ones, and there was no reason for Sherman to bring back Elliot based on what he'd seen. They are however another in a list of moves that don't look good.

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Originally Posted by hek View Post
(Hejda)Hasn't made anymore mistakes this year than Wilson or EJ. Plus they had a need for a defenseman and had to get to the cap floor one way or another. Not much else out there he could have grabbed at the cap hit.
I think he's made more than EJ, especially the last six or seven games. I wouldn't argue he's a worse defenseman than Wilson, but based on his larger role, I think he has made more mistakes than Wilson. I liked the move at the time, and it could still turn out ok. The point again is (getting tired of this but perhaps it was my fault for it not being clear) that this move doesn't look that good right now. Therefore, if this along with most of the other ones can be described as such, he hasn't been a "solid" GM or a good one as implied.

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You're upset about a bunch of dime a dozen fourth line scrubs and marginal prospects? Ok.
This time I am too tired to say it again. Not upset about letting 4th liners go. It's that they were players they needed and have had success (other than Lappy of course) since they left. They are players that would help this team now.

Having McCormick instead of McLeod, or Lappy and Hendricks to instil pasion and grit into this team would be huge. There was no reason to let Lappy and Hendricks go and sign cheap deals with other teams. On their own, not a big deal. Just another in the list of moves that don't look good.


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Originally Posted by hek View Post
Flash would be a huge help to this team no doubt. However, it appears the Avs are working on a tight budget and Flash's history of blood clots and embolism problem made him expendable. Just an ugly fact of how this team is being run with a shoe string.
Flash's contract was pretty ugly I agree. However there's nothing saying he wouldn't have signed for less to play for the Avs. That looks like one of those overpayments to play for a perenial basement franchise. The injury thing made it tough too, but again the point is Flash is lighting the lamp regularly like he did with the Avs, and the Avs aren't scoring so it looks bad.

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Originally Posted by hek View Post
I liked Liles and again I'm sure he would help the transition game out. But he's average at best defensively on his best days. And while he's on pace for 54 points he won't keep it up. He never has. He always comes out of the gate hot and then cools off the rest of the season. Through this point in the season the past three or four years he's been on pace to put up career numbers and then peters out. What I also find funny is that in prior years fans were absolutely incensed at this teams inability to clear the zone with any kind of authority or regularity. Liles was a part of that problem. Now that Sherman has brought in a defense that has improved significantly in that aspect of play fans are now complaining about not having enough PMDs. Damned if you do, damned if you don't it seems.
I never saw a place for Liles on the team beyond his contract. However, a competant GM would have got more than a 2nd rounder for him, and if he couldn't, he would have seen that it would benefit the team more to hold on to him for the last year of his deal. If anything he could have got more at the deadline this year. The 2nd rounder is for the next draft anyway. Not a huge loss in the grand scheme of things, but just another GM he made look good with a trade.

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Originally Posted by hek View Post
Yep, Lindstrom was largely invisible. Invested nothing more than a small contract.
Yet still another move that didn't work. No loss aside from the fact he didn't bring in a player that did work instead.


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Originally Posted by hek View Post
He's looked fine when he's been give bottom six minutes. I have no complaints when he isn't given a role above his abilities.
I'd disagree slightly. He isn't really a 3rd or 4th line grinder. He doesn't fit in that role. The only time I saw him consistently play a gritty game like this shift after shift, was the last game when he was probably told either him or Lindstrom were getting waived/sent down. He had an uncharacteristic (this season) fire in his game.


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Originally Posted by hek View Post
The results aren't there no question. But Sherman has completely overhauled the roster since he has taken the reins. He's brought in a lot of guys with talent and youth. He's set the team up for the future with guys that could fill major holes the Avs have had for quite some time. Now, the question is do these young, talented players ultimately fulfill their potential and be the contributors the Avs need. If they don't then certainly Sherman has failed. No question. If they do fulfill their potential than Sherman certainly has done a solid job setting the team up for long-term success. He's taken significant risks and staked a lot on EJ and Varly. Only time will tell.

The one area that I don't understand at all is the pass he's given to Sacco. He should have been gone after last season. He's had a losing record in the AHL and the NHL. I'm totally puzzled by his continued employment.
Except that the young players you refer to as bright spots for the future are no his doing. Duchene, O'Reilly, Lando, Elliott, and other prospects were due to Pracey's staff and his picks. The other guys on the roster like Staz, Hejduk, Jones, and most of the others were not his doing. So he shouldn't be commended for simply not completely f' n up and trading away his youngsters.

If the moves he has made don't look good, and the best you can say is he didn't trade everyone away, then he can not be described as a solid or good GM. The original point, and nothing more.

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11-30-2011, 02:37 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Even if Anderson for Elliot was purely for value, it's such a minor trade that it doesn't matter.

I think there were other factors involved with Andy being beyond brutal in his last handful of starts and going on a personal leave while on the road the week before the trade. I think it was a matter of getting him out of here no matter what.
Not....the....point.

Unless you are saying Sherman is a good GM, and laying out examples of why, don't take issue with me laying out examples of trades that didn't work out as expected, and saying he can't be described as a good or solid GM. His record simply doesn't give credence to this.

I never used language like he sucks, or he's a POS that needs to be thrown out right now. He's just not that good of a GM and his lack of successful moves support this.

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11-30-2011, 03:01 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Not....the....point.

Unless you are saying Sherman is a good GM, and laying out examples of why, don't take issue with me laying out examples of trades that didn't work out as expected, and saying he can't be described as a good or solid GM. His record simply doesn't give credence to this.

I never used language like he sucks, or he's a POS that needs to be thrown out right now. He's just not that good of a GM and his lack of successful moves support this.
Or possibly one of his move (hiring the current coaching staff) made most of his other moves look worst. A coaching staff with a good system could, and I stress the word could, make the other moves look a lot better. It's not all the coaching staff's fault obviously but it is also obvious it is a big part of the problem.

To me that's the move he should be criticized the most about not the other ones, especially when most fans were in agreement with Sherman at the time of most trades. However how much say did he have in hiring them and how much does he have in firing them? Who knows?

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11-30-2011, 03:02 PM
  #209
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Trading liles was the right move, I just mention.

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11-30-2011, 03:06 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Not....the....point.

Unless you are saying Sherman is a good GM, and laying out examples of why, don't take issue with me laying out examples of trades that didn't work out as expected, and saying he can't be described as a good or solid GM. His record simply doesn't give credence to this.

I never used language like he sucks, or he's a POS that needs to be thrown out right now. He's just not that good of a GM and his lack of successful moves support this.
I'm saying that most of the supposed strikes against him aren't strikes. Lots of small minuses and lots of small pluses and then EJ and Varlamov trades, which has such a large future element to them that there is no reason to focus on them now.

I guess I could do a laundry list of all the small pluses and all the small minuses and come up with a grade but what is the point? They are all minor moves. Nothing that defines him in any way.

I like the team much better now than when he took over. I think it has a lot of potential to turn into a very good team. Most of it is of course from drafting. I don't think he has done an amazing job but I'm generally happy with him. He does aggressively address what he perceives as team needs in an era where most GMs have a hard time making any moves. I'd have that kind of GM any day over the GMs that are afraid to make mistakes.

With our budget limitations and Avs having been a ****** team for a few years, his maneuver room is limited. The best UFAs don't want to come here and the best UFAs are all overpaid anyway. So we patch things up with the Kobasews and Hejdas of the world.

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11-30-2011, 03:08 PM
  #211
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The moves don't look good right now. But right now doesn't matter, 2 years from now on is what matters for this team, so judging these moves how they look right now is dumb because it doesn't matter, it's not what the moves were made for. It just comes off as you having unrealistic expectations for every little move to work out great and all youngsters to immediately be consistently great despite having sub-optimal support. EJ and Varly have been great at times, with the ****** coaching and offense that alone is a good sign for the future with such young players.

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11-30-2011, 03:09 PM
  #212
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Or possibly one of his move (hiring the current coaching staff) made most of his other moves look worst. A coaching staff with a good system could, and I stress the word could, make the other moves look a lot better. It's not all the coaching staff's fault obviously but it is also obvious it is a big part of the problem.

To me that's the move he should be criticized the most about not the other ones, especially when most fans were in agreement with Sherman at the time of most trades. However how much say did he have in hiring them and how much does he have in firing them? Who knows?
Exactly, that's really my one gripe with Sherman so far and I'm not sure he's the one to blame for that one.

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11-30-2011, 03:31 PM
  #213
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Here is my take on your comments:

Agree that the scouting staff does all the work on this issue but the GM ultimately decides who he wants to draft to fit his vision. You might argue that PL has a lot to say about it but I just can't believe that a GM would just sit back and let the head scout make the decision on who to draft. If other GMs get credit for how they well they build their team through the draft then Sherman deserves the same.
I don't have any hard evidence to support this, but to me it's pretty clear this isn't true with the Avs. Pracey runs the show. They pick the BPA, and Sherman says thanks. Even PL didn't play much of a role in draft pick decisions. They just don't know nearly as much about the prospects as the guys who's job it is to follow them all year. Sherman and PL simply don't have the time to do this, and trust their amateur scouts opinions. It's Pracey's job to weigh everyones opinions and make the best decision for the team, not Sherman.

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At the time of the trade Smyth was on the decline and had (still has) an expensive contract. The only reason he is doing so well is that he is back in Edmonton where he loves to play. Most people were happy with the return except maybe for the 5th rounder. The pick could have been higher but Quincey was a good return for a huge cap dump.
I'll just copy and paste my comments from earlier.

"The idea however is that rationale behind the move (other than purely financial) was that Smyth was going to be washed up and completely over paid. He isn't and is producing a PPG through 24 games, skating very well, and providing the kind of leadership this team has needed for the last few years.

In return, they essentially only received Quincey, who I liked the first few months he was here, and so far this season, has not provided much due to injury and lack of confident play.

Like i mentioned in my last post a few times, and will do so again just to be clear. It's not about one move, it's about the results not really speaking for themselves."

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Don't understand your proble with this one. Anderson was leaving anyway. We were going to lose for nothing and besides one half of a season, he had been doing average with the Avs. I don't think one person here wanted the Avs to retain Elliott so what he is currently doing this year is irrelevant. Nobody saw that coming. Blaming Sherman for not seeing it is unfair. He did what the fan wanted him to do.
Copy and pasted earlier post.

"To be clear again, I have no problems with letting Elliot go. I'm not trying to cut Sherman with a double edged sword by giving him crap for aquiring him and letting him go. It's that both decisions didn't work out...once again.

Anderson's trade value was not high. Elliot's was basically nothing. Anderson's 09/10 season gave him more value becuase Elliot never had a season like that. Money didn't come into play because they're contracts were both up at the end of the year.

Again, by itself, nothing to harp on. Anderson while he has looked pretty good in a few games this season has also had a few poor ones, and there was no reason for Sherman to bring back Elliot based on what he'd seen. They are however another in a list of moves that don't look good."


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Agree. We'll have to wait on this one.
We will then won't we!

Just kidding.


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Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
Another one we'll have to wait to assess fully. The problem with this trade is that the overpayment was at the time of the trade. Varly was 3rd on their depth chart and was believed to leave for the KHL. One would think that the Avs would have been able to get him for less but unfortunately we were not part of the negotiations so who knows how it went. Maybe another team came forward with a good offer and Sherman was afraid of losing him. However if Varly reaches his full potential that many here believes and finally becomes the goalie that we have been missing for so long since Roy, I have no doubt that he will be worth a lottery pick and a second rounder. By the way I also thought that we would go the Vokoun way but I don't mind the trade so far. Even though he hasn't done as well as we want, he is not the problem right now.
I agree definitely. However the fact will always stand that at the time, he gave up considerably more than his market value, and made another GM look good. At best, he is shooting for the trade to be a wash and Varly was worth it.

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Another one I don't understand why you rate him low on. At the time of the trade, everybody here were really happy with the move. Maybe one year too many on the terms but we all thought he would be what EJ needed. Can't really blame him for the coach mishandling the player except for not firing the coach. It was a good move and with a different coach, this trade could still look like a very good move in the future.
I agree, and I liked it at the time too. As I mentioned earlier, it could still pan out and Hejda could find a solid game again. However, the point was it looks bad right now, and therefore can't be deemed a successful move like most all his others.

I would disagree though in that Sacco and the coaching staff isn't to blame on this one. I actually think Lefebvre has done a very good job with the D, and it is one of the bright spots on this team. It's the forwards that have had the problems with scoring, and play in their own zone. Hejda's struggles are all on him I think.

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Arnason was before him unless you take into account that he was the assistant GM. However he you say he is not responsible for the drafting then you have to say that he was not responsible for moves as assistant GM. I really dislike Arnason but to FG's defense, Arnason had a pretty good year just before the signing. The problem was signing him for 2 years.
Right, and you probably missed it, but I mentioned I misread that one. I was looking at the departures in the first post, and saw he signed a two year deal with NYR, and thought it was when he sigend the two year deal with us. Defintiely not Sherman's mistake.

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Lappy wanted more money and a 3 year contract. It was too much for the Avs at the time. Hated losing him though but had to be done. He still got his long term contract with Philly but he had to settle for less money he wanted.
Again, individually not the point but I'll argue it. Lappy didn't want more money, he wanted the same money because he had been taking paycuts most his career. $1.166 M isn't that much and neither would have been a 3 year deal. They knew they'd have no cap issues, and they needed a veteran leader that played a gritty game anyway. Not to mention he was a fan favorite.

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McCormick - Really who cares?
Again not the point, but he made the decision to let McCormick go instead of McLeod and McCormick is by far the better fighter, and player on the ice. Something this team needs both of. By itself not a huge deal, just another in the list of moves that don't look successful.

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Cohen was overrated a lot in those days. I was saying it before the trade that all people were saying about him was always centered on his big shot. It takes a lot more than a big shot to make it and remain in the NHL. Not a big loss. The problem was what we got in return and with that I agree with you. Didn't need another small PMD and that one actually made us a worst team.
Absolutely, and even at the time when it wasn't as clear that he was overhyped, I had no problem with losing him. We had Shatty, and a wealth of right handed shots.

Like you said though the problem was the return. It was for a redundant player in a small PMD, and he turned out to be even worse than thought. Cohen probably had decent value from his days with BU, so if he was to be traded, Sherm could have got more.

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Hendricks - Hated to lose him as I was a big fan. However the problem with him was that he wanted a one-way contract. It wasn't the amount. I think the Avs were ok to pay him 825K for what he was bringing. 4th liner are a lot easier to replace so they let him go.
True, I think you're right if I remember correctly. However, at that point, there was no doubt in my mind that Hendricks was an NHL player. I didn't see anything that would imply his game would regress. I could see this argument for McCormick possibly, but not Hendricks. They didn't need to play hardball and insist on a one way deal to be safe.

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Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
Again I don't think we can blame him for letting him walk. He had health issue related to high altitude. He was a PPG player while with us but it was a very small sample (22 games). There were lots of complaints at the time with him only showing at the end of the games which certainly doesn't fit the type of players the Avs are after. Yes he had chemistry with Duchene but again it was a small sample and couple that with his past record with WAS and it was certainly a risk to re-sign him at the money he wanted even if it was a lower amount that he signed for with FLO.
Nope I agree. However, it's another in a list of moves that don't look good, and a player the Avs wish they had. The point is the results. It's easy to look at it with 20/20 hindsight, but after a certain amount of time is past, that's how you evaluate a GM. His successes and failures.

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There were always lots of talk of trade regarding Liles in the past. If true, it is obvious that they got the maximum they could get for him. He is always hot coming out of the gate so let see if he keeps it up. We had to get bigger and we had lots of PMDs in the system so not a big loss. Our D is one of the best in the league in scoring and I believe we got stronger defensively so better a second rounder than nothing.
Copy and paste from earlier.

"a competant GM would have got more than a 2nd rounder for him, and if he couldn't, he would have seen that it would benefit the team more to hold on to him for the last year of his deal. If anything he could have got more at the deadline this year. The 2nd rounder is for the next draft anyway. Not a huge loss in the grand scheme of things, but just another GM he made look good with a trade."


A move that didn't pan out but it was a very low risk/high reward type of move. I liked it at the time and still don't blame him for trying. The reason he is being moved is his defensive play and Elliott forcing FO to keep him.[/QUOTE]

C and P

"Yet still another move that didn't work. No loss aside from the fact he didn't bring in a player that did work instead."

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I think Kobasew is avery good signing if they keep him on the 4th line. He can also fill in on the 3rd if need be.
Fair enough, but I disagree, and he wasn't brought in to be a 4th liner. He was brought in to support the offense, so it can't be deemed successful.

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Sorry for the long post.
Not as sorry as I am for mine.

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11-30-2011, 03:33 PM
  #214
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The moves don't look good right now. But right now doesn't matter, 2 years from now on is what matters for this team, so judging these moves how they look right now is dumb because it doesn't matter, it's not what the moves were made for. It just comes off as you having unrealistic expectations for every little move to work out great and all youngsters to immediately be consistently great despite having sub-optimal support. EJ and Varly have been great at times, with the ****** coaching and offense that alone is a good sign for the future with such young players.
It's not dumb to analyze a move now. If you wish to call us dumb for not waiting until 2013 to analyze these moves, that's your problem, we have a right to say whether or not the rebuild is going in the right direction, and a growing number of us believe it's not.

If we should've waited for this team to get better instead of sooner, why then deal a first rounder for a goalie? Why not wait until the umpteen-million goalie prospects start bearing fruit? Then you still have a first-rounder that could be used to get another solid rookie, either on D or the wing. If this team is still in FULL rebuild mode, then they should've gotten some stopgap measures like before.

The move for Varly was to get a goalie for the present AND the future, whether you want to admit it or not. Varlamov is not a goalie prospect, he's a goalie, and he was expected to contribute to this team right off the bat. If he wasn't, then the deal to get him looks that much worse.

EJ doesn't get quite as much flack, but he too is NOT a prospect. It would be unrealistic to expect him to be Rob Blake off the bat, but it is not unrealistic to criticize his play right now, which has not been horrid, but below the mark IMO.

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11-30-2011, 03:54 PM
  #215
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I'm saying that most of the supposed strikes against him aren't strikes. Lots of small minuses and lots of small pluses and then EJ and Varlamov trades, which has such a large future element to them that there is no reason to focus on them now.

I guess I could do a laundry list of all the small pluses and all the small minuses and come up with a grade but what is the point? They are all minor moves. Nothing that defines him in any way.

I like the team much better now than when he took over. I think it has a lot of potential to turn into a very good team. Most of it is of course from drafting. I don't think he has done an amazing job but I'm generally happy with him. He does aggressively address what he perceives as team needs in an era where most GMs have a hard time making any moves. I'd have that kind of GM any day over the GMs that are afraid to make mistakes.

With our budget limitations and Avs having been a ****** team for a few years, his maneuver room is limited. The best UFAs don't want to come here and the best UFAs are all overpaid anyway. So we patch things up with the Kobasews and Hejdas of the world.
True there are some smaller moves that didn't work out, but the only ones that did were smaller moves. What's left are other moves that didn't work, or haven't yet. The point wasn't that he's a terrible GM, it was to rebut the point that he was solid or good. He hasn't been that good, and he's trending in the wrong direction.

You like the team much better than before he took over because Duchene, O'Reilly, Lando, Elliott, Hishon, and Stewart/EJ weren't really on it, and Jones is healthy. It has a core that is establishing itself, none of which are a credit to Sherman.

Not a horrible GM, but not a good one. That's the original point.

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The moves don't look good right now. But right now doesn't matter, 2 years from now on is what matters for this team, so judging these moves how they look right now is dumb because it doesn't matter, it's not what the moves were made for. It just comes off as you having unrealistic expectations for every little move to work out great and all youngsters to immediately be consistently great despite having sub-optimal support. EJ and Varly have been great at times, with the ****** coaching and offense that alone is a good sign for the future with such young players.
If that's how it comes off, than it's my mistake. I don't have unrealistic expectations for every move. My expectations are that his success percentage woulnd't be so low. You're not going to win every trade, or get full value, but you should every once in a while.

If you're not responsible for the draft picks, and PL makes the coaching decisions (like I believe) than his sole job is contract negotiations (he's good at this no doubt but it's hardly a top trait for a GM) negotiations with other GM's on trades, and player personel decisions. He hasn't had much success in the later two, and that is what I tried to point out.

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12-01-2011, 01:43 AM
  #216
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go foppa go foppa. love your posts.


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12-01-2011, 01:46 AM
  #217
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props to Av-merican for some solid remarks. I just think the posters on here who make valid points deserve a little recognition from time to time.

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12-01-2011, 01:52 AM
  #218
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props to Av-merican for some solid remarks. I just think the posters on here who make valid points deserve a little recognition from time to time.
Thanks much, FF. Same to you!

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12-01-2011, 01:53 AM
  #219
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Ok, I don't have the time and energy to quote and argue with all of the little things throughout this thread, so I'm gonna sum it up into a few sentences. Foppa I'm on board with all of the assessments you have made of Sherman's moves. Cyberfan, you're deluded and you're making a lot of rationalizations and excuses. Please get off Sherman's d**k.

Sherman's track record is as sketchy as a rope bridge on the set of Indiana Jones.

To anyone saying that we are seeing a "progression" under Sherman, realize that we were in a playoff spot 2 seasons ago, and we are now locked in the basement of the NHL. that's called "regression"
Haha! Considering the other posts I saw from you, I'm not going to worry about this comment.

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12-01-2011, 02:09 AM
  #220
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Haha! Considering the other posts I saw from you, I'm not going to worry about this comment.

ok, whatever you say man.

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12-01-2011, 11:00 AM
  #221
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He's made two big moves. The EJ and the Varlamov one. We can start evaluating those in a couple of years.
I think 10 years down the line, we'll be very happy he made the Varly trade. Hopefully EJ too!

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12-01-2011, 12:40 PM
  #222
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I think 10 years down the line, we'll be very happy he made the Varly trade. Hopefully EJ too!
Sweet!

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12-01-2011, 01:56 PM
  #223
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Even if Greg Sherman isn't the GM to change Colorado into a Stanley Cup contender, his regime was able to bring in a former 1st overall pick defenseman after years of a mediocre blue line. He also brought in a former 1st round pick goalie, after years of the franchise using retread wash-ups between the pipes. And while it's not looking like it'll turn out due to unforeseen health issues, he brought in a former 1st round pick forward who was recently considered untouchable by the Coyote organization.

You can't knock the guy for trying, and at the very least he's built a young foundation with the players he traded for, as well as with players drafted during his tenure as GM.

This whole management group has been such a breath for fresh air compared to the Francois Giguere era, a GM synonymous with bringing in over the hill talent. Five total trades in his three years as GM, the players he brought in being Ruslan Salei, Adam Foote, Jordan Leopold, Ryan Wilson, and Michael Wall. Players he signed including Ryan Smyth, Scott Hannan, Peter Forsberg, Darcy Tucker, and Andrew Raycroft.

That regime was a mess. Absolutely zero was accomplished, and the only holdover player is a middle pairing defenseman with upside. At least now the GM and management group is bringing in players with significant upside and room to grow, and they've done it while not giving up too much; arguably the best asset being Kevin Shattenkirk, someone widely considered to be replaceable based on system depth, i.e. players drafted during the Sherman era.

Best of all, they're doing it with zero money. Even if the Avalanche bottom out and clean office, at least there's no big money tied up in declining players (like the old Avalanche regime, and so many other bottom feeders, like Calgary and Columbus), and there are plenty of good players laying around to build around (Duchene, Landeskog, etc.).

At worst, Colorado is in first gear, and not reverse, like they had been from 2005-2009. Progress has been made.

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12-01-2011, 02:19 PM
  #224
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Even if Greg Sherman isn't the GM to change Colorado into a Stanley Cup contender, his regime was able to bring in a former 1st overall pick defenseman after years of a mediocre blue line. He also brought in a former 1st round pick goalie, after years of the franchise using retread wash-ups between the pipes. And while it's not looking like it'll turn out due to unforeseen health issues, he brought in a former 1st round pick forward who was recently considered untouchable by the Coyote organization.

You can't knock the guy for trying, and at the very least he's built a young foundation with the players he traded for, as well as with players drafted during his tenure as GM.

This whole management group has been such a breath for fresh air compared to the Francois Giguere era, a GM synonymous with bringing in over the hill talent. Five total trades in his three years as GM, the players he brought in being Ruslan Salei, Adam Foote, Jordan Leopold, Ryan Wilson, and Michael Wall. Players he signed including Ryan Smyth, Scott Hannan, Peter Forsberg, Darcy Tucker, and Andrew Raycroft.

That regime was a mess. Absolutely zero was accomplished, and the only holdover player is a middle pairing defenseman with upside. At least now the GM and management group is bringing in players with significant upside and room to grow, and they've done it while not giving up too much; arguably the best asset being Kevin Shattenkirk, someone widely considered to be replaceable based on system depth, i.e. players drafted during the Sherman era.

Best of all, they're doing it with zero money. Even if the Avalanche bottom out and clean office, at least there's no big money tied up in declining players (like the old Avalanche regime, and so many other bottom feeders, like Calgary and Columbus), and there are plenty of good players laying around to build around (Duchene, Landeskog, etc.).

At worst, Colorado is in first gear, and not reverse, like they had been from 2005-2009. Progress has been made.
Very good points all around. I'll readily concede he's been way better than Giguere. But I still don't think he should be the guy going forward.

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12-01-2011, 02:52 PM
  #225
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Do you know what would really help Sherman's record? HIRE CARLYLE.

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