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Old
06-05-2009, 04:29 AM
  #76
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[QUOTE=surshot;19804205]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shef View Post
Sure Gilbert is a nice offensive player but hes horrible in his own end and is a giveaway machine. For everything he gives you on the offensive side of things, he gives it all back with some of his defensive blunders.

There is no way on his own hes worth the #7 overall pick. Cowen easily projects out to be a more impacrfull player then Gilbert. Im not suprised by Oiler fans trying to do this sell job tho, they have the most overrated youth in the league (Gagner, Cogliano, Gilbert, Nillson etc). This is the second proposal I've seen from Oil fans in the past two weeks where they deal off a young player for the 7th pick. First it was Cogliano and now its Gilbert. You'd think if these players were half as good as Oiler fans say they were, they wouldnt be dealing it for a draft pick that has a chance to bust.[/QUOT]

Talk to me when you know what you are talking about. His defensive blunders are very limited for someone who makes first passes and can skate the puck out of his own end on a very consistent basis. He is good because of his defensive play he also was second on the Oil for blocked shots. If you knew anything about Gilbert you would rip on him because he does not look for hits yet he has the size to do so. You can also ignore the fact he is a plus player but go ahead and call him a give away machine as it looks good on you for someone who has no idea what the hell they speak about.

I do not make trade proposals and i am not the only Oiler fan. Were a large fan base and we have are share of meat heads just like Toronto fans like you who probably have no business commenting on players value as you have proved by ripping the Oilers young players. Do me a favor learn some hockey do some homework then think about responding to one of my posts. You know use your brain for good other then ripping on players you have no clue about by your obvious meathead comments. Have a good night and for a Toronto fan you should be a little less cocky when it comes to ripping other teams as you fail to understand what an easy target the pathetic leafs are. But i well rise above and not say anything as its like stealing candy from a whiny Toronto kid. They well just cry and have a hissy fit.
Using plus minus to determine a players defensive abilities is sooo faulty. Like I said Gilbert has nice offensive skills, can handle the puck, make a nice first pass/outlet pass and can be very effective skating the puck thru the tough areas. He is very prone to caughing up the puck when pressured and he gave the puck away in many prime areas last season and was sloppy with the puck in his own end. His defensive play needs alot of work, but I wouldnt expect someone whos obviously bias to admit this. Your the same guy that thinks Gilbert straight up is worth more then the #7 overall pick in a strong draft. Cowen easily projects to be a more impactfull player then Gilbert is and no way would I trade away a chance at him for a nice offensive 2nd pairing defencemen.

Im not even going to respond to that last part of your post, the whole paragraph is you acting like a 12 year old who thinks he's so much smarter and better then everyone else. Its hilarious that you think Leaf fans have no business commenting on some of the Oiler players, like leaf fans have never watched a Oiler game before or dont have center ice and possibly watch them on a regular basis.

"Have a good night and for a Toronto fan you should be a little less cocky when it comes to ripping other teams as you fail to understand what an easy target the pathetic leafs are. But i well rise above and not say anything as its like stealing candy from a whiny Toronto kid. They well just cry and have a hissy fit"


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06-05-2009, 04:33 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
You think Cowen is going to be there at 7. Here is a hint read something different then the Toronto Sports Network. As for the rest i said a good roster player. So what about Kaberle you guys mentioned him and i think he is a good player. But he is getting Older if you want to trade him for a top ten pick, good luck with that. I never said anything about him being worthless. You guys only read what you want to read.
I gurantee you Cowen is NOT selected in the top 5.

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06-05-2009, 04:39 AM
  #78
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[QUOTE=Shef;19804242]
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post

Using plus minus to determine a players defensive abilities is sooo faulty. Like I said Gilbert has nice offensive skills, can handle the puck, make a nice first pass/outlet pass and can be very effective skating the puck thru the tough areas. He is very prone to caughing up the puck when pressured and he gave the puck away in many prime areas last season and was sloppy with the puck in his own end. His defensive play needs alot of work, but I wouldnt expect someone whos obviously bias to admit this. Your the same guy that thinks Gilbert straight up is worth more then the #7 overall pick in a strong draft. Cowen easily projects to be a more impactfull player then Gilbert is and no way would I trade away a chance at him for a nice offensive 2nd pairing defencemen.

Im not even going to respond to that last part of your post, the whole paragraph is you acting like a 12 year old who thinks he's so much smarter and better then everyone else. Its hilarious that you think Leaf fans have no business commenting on some of the Oiler players, like leaf fans have never watched a Oiler game before or dont have center ice and possibly watch them on a regular basis.

"Have a good night and for a Toronto fan you should be a little less cocky when it comes to ripping other teams as you fail to understand what an easy target the pathetic leafs are. But i well rise above and not say anything as its like stealing candy from a whiny Toronto kid. They well just cry and have a hissy fit"

I was not talking to all TO fans, just to you please do not get confused. You rip are young players almost every single one and expect me to respect your opinion on Hockey. If you do watch you do not show it.

Your the one putting all Oil fans in the same boat.



For the Kaberle comments. I am sorry other posters have hurt your feelings it does not give you the right to rip Gilbert as thats the only reason i commented in this thread as the proposal was beyond stupid.

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06-05-2009, 04:41 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shef View Post
I gurantee you Cowen is NOT selected in the top 5.
Yeah your the last guy i would listen to. Thanks for the input.

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06-05-2009, 04:45 AM
  #80
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[QUOTE=surshot;19804257]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shef View Post

I was not talking to all TO fans, just to you please do not get confused. You rip are young players almost every single one and expect me to respect your opinion on Hockey. If you do watch you do not show it.

Your the one putting all Oil fans in the same boat.



For the Kaberle comments. I am sorry other posters have hurt your feelings it does not give you the right to rip Gilbert as thats the only reason i commented in this thread as the proposal was beyond stupid.
So any fan that points out a possible flaw in a players game all the sudden doesnt know what they are talking about and dont watch hockey? Are you honestly trying to tell me that Gilbert doesnt have shortcomings in his own zone? If I was here trying to purposely rip on Oiler players, then why would I be pointing out his strengths and praising certain things he does well.

Why are you even bringing up Kaberle to me? I didnt mention him once. If Gilbert is so awesome then why are Oiler fans trying to deal him for a draft pick that for all anyone knows could turn out to be a total bust. Doesnt sound like some of your other Oiler fans think as highly of Gilbert as you do.

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06-05-2009, 04:46 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Yeah your the last guy i would listen to. Thanks for the input.
So tell me who in the top 5 is going to select Cowen smartguy?

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06-05-2009, 04:50 AM
  #82
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Atlanta

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Old
06-05-2009, 05:09 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Shef View Post
So tell me who in the top 5 is going to select Cowen smartguy?
Atlanta

He was ranked high before he got hurt on the rankings that you put so much belief in for a reason. Teams well determine who and when a player gets drafted and if the teams determine his knee is fine there going to grab him faster then you can say Magnuss Paajarvi Svensson. He is very comparable to Hedman in both style and size Hedman is just doing it in a mens league. He can dominate a game by shutting things down and adding offence. Very important if i was Atlanta and was needing a stud Dman. Lets not forget this kid dominated a memorial cup as a 16 year old. He can also skate like the wind which is rare for someone his size. I see MPS or Schenn falling to seven. Cowen is a young Chara.

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06-05-2009, 05:09 AM
  #84
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I just went back and re read some of your posts surshot.

" Basically if your not in the top three do not expect a actual good roster player"

Are you honestly trying to say that outside of the first three picks, none of the other first rounders and even other top 10 picks will turn into good roster players? If this is what you are saying, this is hilarious.

"Cowen is going top five just watch. And from what i read there is zero consensus on what the top seven is going to be"

There might not be a concensus on the top 7 and even this is really not true, but there certainly looks to be a concensus on the top 5. Brian Burke said in a interview just a few days ago that he's talked to most GM's and the conclusion is the top 5 is Tavares, Hedman, Duchene, Kane and Schenn. I can even post the quote if you'd like to see if for yourself. The latest central scouting rankings also dont support your thoery that Cowen is going to be selected in the top 5 as he was bumped down to the 9th.

Lots of people will tell you that the top 7 is Tavares, Hedman, Duchene, Kane, Schenn, MSP and possibly Cowen. There is certainly a locked in top 6 and then at 7 it becomes somewhat tricky.

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06-05-2009, 05:10 AM
  #85
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[QUOTE=surshot;19804257]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shef View Post

I was not talking to all TO fans, just to you please do not get confused. You rip are young players almost every single one and expect me to respect your opinion on Hockey. If you do watch you do not show it.

Your the one putting all Oil fans in the same boat.



For the Kaberle comments. I am sorry other posters have hurt your feelings it does not give you the right to rip Gilbert as thats the only reason i commented in this thread as the proposal was beyond stupid.
Are you really that clueless? You say your comments aren't directed at all leafs fans yet you say our team is an easy target because their so pathetic. How is that not directed at all leafs fans? On another note are you french becuase your understanding of the english language is brutal.

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06-05-2009, 05:13 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Atlanta

He was ranked high before he got hurt on the rankings that you put so much belief in for a reason. Teams well determine who and when a player gets drafted and if the teams determine his knee is fine there going to grab him faster then you can say Magnuss Paajarvi Svensson. He is very comparable to Hedman in both style and size Hedman is just doing it in a mens league. He can dominate a game by shutting things down and adding offence. Very important if i was Atlanta and was needing a stud Dman. Lets not forget this kid dominated a memorial cup as a 16 year old. He can also skate like the wind which is rare for someone his size. I see MPS or Schenn falling to seven. Cowen is a young Chara.
So Atlanta is going to pass on Kane, Schenn and MSP? I highly doubt this as they could use forwards just as much as defencemen and currently all of those three are ranked ahead of Cowen, so they would still be drafting the percieved best player available.

Cowen is nothing like Chara. Chara is much bigger and much meaner. One of the knocks on Cowen is that he can certainly become a much tougher player to play against even though he's still good at playing the defensive shutdown role. Hes more Braydon Coburn then Zdeno Chara.

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06-05-2009, 05:23 AM
  #87
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Sam Gagner was selected #6 overall in a weak draft. I guess by your own logic, this would mean that Sam Gagner is also not a actual good roster player. I mean considering that you cant get a usefull player at picks after #3 according to you. This draft is easily better then that draft also.

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06-05-2009, 05:36 AM
  #88
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[QUOTE=Shef;19804264]
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post

So any fan that points out a possible flaw in a players game all the sudden doesnt know what they are talking about and dont watch hockey? Are you honestly trying to tell me that Gilbert doesnt have shortcomings in his own zone? If I was here trying to purposely rip on Oiler players, then why would I be pointing out his strengths and praising certain things he does well.

Why are you even bringing up Kaberle to me? I didnt mention him once. If Gilbert is so awesome then why are Oiler fans trying to deal him for a draft pick that for all anyone knows could turn out to be a total bust. Doesnt sound like some of your other Oiler fans think as highly of Gilbert as you do.
Not anymore flaws then in any other Dman. So what its a game of mistakes i was watching Lidstrom tonight and he made a couple mistakes does that mean i should go rip on him and call him a giveaway machine. Pronger makes the same mistakes so does Niedmayer it happens to all Dmen. Gilbert is a very consistent player in his own end and is really smart and makes the right play most of the time. He is fine usually unless he gets caught jumping into the play but he also has a uncanny ability that i have witnessed of getting a goal or a great play after making a mistake. He is not i repeat not a giveaway machine.

Kaberle was for the other posters who made comments thats what i meant when i said as for the Kaberle comments. I have already posted about this OP making silly proposals on a daily basis and directly gave him crap for it. Once again there are many Oil fans do not mistake one guy for all of us. Have you not seen a dumb proposal from a Toronto fan? Cause i have. I have seen it from most fan bases not just Oiler fans. The only reason Gilbert gets traded is because of who we have on are D core and some fans i repeat some fans think we should have more of a shut down guy instead and Gilbert could get a good return. Its not because he sucks.
For all anybody knows it could be Souray thats gone or Lubo or Grebs. Plus you add all four of those guys together and its almost 18 mill in salary for are top four. Some penny pinchers think thats a bit to much not me and i am sure i am not the only one.


Just trying to defend Gilbert as there is a bad sentiment around here about him and its really un-called for.

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06-05-2009, 05:46 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shef View Post
I just went back and re read some of your posts surshot.

" Basically if your not in the top three do not expect a actual good roster player"

Are you honestly trying to say that outside of the first three picks, none of the other first rounders and even other top 10 picks will turn into good roster players? If this is what you are saying, this is hilarious.

"Cowen is going top five just watch. And from what i read there is zero consensus on what the top seven is going to be"

There might not be a concensus on the top 7 and even this is really not true, but there certainly looks to be a concensus on the top 5. Brian Burke said in a interview just a few days ago that he's talked to most GM's and the conclusion is the top 5 is Tavares, Hedman, Duchene, Kane and Schenn. I can even post the quote if you'd like to see if for yourself. The latest central scouting rankings also dont support your thoery that Cowen is going to be selected in the top 5 as he was bumped down to the 9th.

Lots of people will tell you that the top 7 is Tavares, Hedman, Duchene, Kane, Schenn, MSP and possibly Cowen. There is certainly a locked in top 6 and then at 7 it becomes somewhat tricky.
Holy your your hard to talk to. the first bolded part was in a trade do not expect a good roster player. Your opinion is obviously different and your not going to change my mind on Cowen and i said watch what happens at the draft. Please Coburn.

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06-05-2009, 05:48 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shef View Post
Sam Gagner was selected #6 overall in a weak draft. I guess by your own logic, this would mean that Sam Gagner is also not a actual good roster player. I mean considering that you cant get a usefull player at picks after #3 according to you. This draft is easily better then that draft also.
Since when was it a weak draft. And you have not read my posts correctly.

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06-05-2009, 05:55 AM
  #91
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[QUOTE=dredeye;19804288]
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post

Are you really that clueless? You say your comments aren't directed at all leafs fans yet you say our team is an easy target because their so pathetic. How is that not directed at all leafs fans? On another note are you french becuase your understanding of the english language is brutal.
Are you that clueless? That i was responding to his post that ripped the Oilers and just showed how easy it is. If you want a war and me to lambast toronto players just let me know. Past or present.

I am English and i could care less what you think of my grammar as i am not trying to impress you or anyone else. If you can not understand what i type its you that might be french.

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06-05-2009, 06:44 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Holy your your hard to talk to. the first bolded part was in a trade do not expect a good roster player. Your opinion is obviously different and your not going to change my mind on Cowen and i said watch what happens at the draft. Please Coburn.
Your the one whos difficult to talk with. Maybe if you made a little more sense in some of your posts people wouldnt get it confused. Yes I will watch what happens at the draft and I'm very confident Jared Cowen will not get selected in the top 5. Hes alot closer in style to Coburn then he is Chara. Your comparison is more ridiculous then mine.

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06-05-2009, 06:48 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Since when was it a weak draft. And you have not read my posts correctly.
That draft was weak/Mediocre. Are you seriously saying it wasnt?

Kane's the only one that looks like a future star. Alot of decent players and alot of mediocre players. It certainly wasnt a good draft, the top end talent in the draft wasnt that great and not much in the 10-30 range looks that great either. It was a very MEDIOCRE draft.

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06-05-2009, 10:57 AM
  #94
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This thread is too funny. Do fans actually see plausibility in this trade?

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06-05-2009, 11:25 AM
  #95
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Do Leaf Homers actually think that a 7th overall pick is worth more than a 45 point/ 4 million dollar for 5 years/ 26 year old D-man in his 2nd season playing 2nd pairing minutes with 2nd pairing PP time? (I know an Oiler fan made the OP but this is directed at the comments)

And no Gagner will not be moved for the pick either, get over it.
we're not giving our top-10 pick for a 2nd pairing defenseman. You said it, not me.

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06-05-2009, 11:39 AM
  #96
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Potential>>>>Good NHL'ers, because thats how Stanley Cups are won!
I'm not sure why you've included the sarcasm smiley. You may or may not have noticed but it appears as though all of the most successful teams in this league are build through the draft.

Toronto has been trading "potential" for "good NHL'ers" for years and look where that has gotten us.

The harsh truth is that the 7th overall pick is worth so much more than Gilbert to the Leafs because, while Gilbert is a good player, the 7th overall has the potential to be a player that we build around. Quick fixes are no longer acceptable in Leaf land (I hope).

Quote:
Originally Posted by surshot View Post
Atlanta

He was ranked high before he got hurt on the rankings that you put so much belief in for a reason. Teams well determine who and when a player gets drafted and if the teams determine his knee is fine there going to grab him faster then you can say Magnuss Paajarvi Svensson. He is very comparable to Hedman in both style and size Hedman is just doing it in a mens league. He can dominate a game by shutting things down and adding offence. Very important if i was Atlanta and was needing a stud Dman. Lets not forget this kid dominated a memorial cup as a 16 year old. He can also skate like the wind which is rare for someone his size. I see MPS or Schenn falling to seven. Cowen is a young Chara.
If Atlanta takes Cowen I will eat my shoes. If Schenn falls to 7 that makes the pick all the more valuable to the Leafs.

Wait, let me get this straight, you think that the Leafs may be able to get MPS or Schenn at 7 AND that Gilbert is enough value for that pick? You have made this thread memorable for me. Thank you for that.

Quote:
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I am English and i could care less what you think of my grammar as i am not trying to impress you or anyone else. If you can not understand what i type its you that might be french.
For the record, I use good grammar not because I want to impress anyone, but because this is how I write. Don't go thinking that if you were to work on improving your grammar (perhaps by introducing some punctuation) it would be only because you wanted to impress people. There is value in being able to write clearly over and above what people think of you on the internet.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

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06-05-2009, 11:48 AM
  #97
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we're not giving our top-10 pick for a 2nd pairing defenseman. You said it, not me.

Its funny how Toronto fans, who continually describe Kaberle as an "all star" who is worthy of a top 10 pick, get indignant about a deal involving a similar player for their own pick (similar in style and potential, not similar in accomplishments - obviously).

Gilbert was on the second pair in EDM larger because of Vish and Souray. He would have been on the top pair on a lot of other teams.

I personally wouldnt' be shocked to see Toronto move down in this draft - in fact, I think the odds favor such a move. However, Gilbert is not that player that would attract Toronto's interest. They already have two similar players in Kubina and Kaberle. If Toronto did move their pick for a vet, I think they'd want a scorer in return.

I agree with Toronto fans - it would take a young stud along the lines of Gagner to get a deal done.

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06-05-2009, 12:10 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Its funny how Toronto fans, who continually describe Kaberle as an "all star" who is worthy of a top 10 pick, get indignant about a deal involving a similar player for their own pick (similar in style and potential, not similar in accomplishments - obviously).

Gilbert was on the second pair in EDM larger because of Vish and Souray. He would have been on the top pair on a lot of other teams.

I personally wouldnt' be shocked to see Toronto move down in this draft - in fact, I think the odds favor such a move. However, Gilbert is not that player that would attract Toronto's interest. They already have two similar players in Kubina and Kaberle. If Toronto did move their pick for a vet, I think they'd want a scorer in return.

I agree with Toronto fans - it would take a young stud along the lines of Gagner to get a deal done.
But dont you find it funny the amount of abuse we take for trade proposals offered for Kaberle. I know some are bad, but in every Kaberle thread people say how he is old, washed-up, injury prone and what not. We get ripped hard for it.

Lately there have been threads where oilers fans say they expect Zajac for Gilbert. Or Gilbert for the 7th overall. There are tons of Gilbert for threads, and the asking price is huge. You dont see a lot of people going into those threads and laughing at those offers.

In reality Kaberle > Gilbert. Gilbert plays behind Vis in EDM. I think there is a very high chance that if Kaberle was in Edm, with Vis, he would play ahead of him.

Yet when we ask for a top 10 draft pick we are dilusional, and overrate Kaberle so much. Its so hypocritical.

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06-05-2009, 12:28 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Its funny how Toronto fans, who continually describe Kaberle as an "all star" who is worthy of a top 10 pick, get indignant about a deal involving a similar player for their own pick (similar in style and potential, not similar in accomplishments - obviously).

Gilbert was on the second pair in EDM larger because of Vish and Souray. He would have been on the top pair on a lot of other teams.

I personally wouldnt' be shocked to see Toronto move down in this draft - in fact, I think the odds favor such a move. However, Gilbert is not that player that would attract Toronto's interest. They already have two similar players in Kubina and Kaberle. If Toronto did move their pick for a vet, I think they'd want a scorer in return.
There are two problems with this statement.

First, few Leaf fans would contend that Kaberle could be traded straight up for a top 10 pick. There will always be a few bad apples, but you know very well that most of the Leaf fans who have been posting in this thread (such as myself) do not think that Kaberle can be traded for a top 10 pick. Don't be coy.

In fact, if you read through the thread you will notice many posters asking if the Oiler fans would take Kaberle for the 10th overall (knowing that they wouldn't take the deal), thereby demonstrating not only that they know Kaberle's value to be less than a top 10 pick, but also that this perception is part of the explanation as to why Gilbert is not enough value for the 7th overall pick. In other words, we are fully aware that neither Kaberle or Gilbert is worth such a high pick in a deep draft.

Second, and you alluded to this yourself, Kaberle and Gilbert may be similar in style, but Kaberle is far and away the better player.

You always bring up the "all-star" thing, but I have no idea why. Kaberle has played 4 all-star games, yes. Gilbert would have to make the all-star game 4 out of his next 5 seasons in order to match Kaberle in that regard. Unfortunately he is still not better than Vishnovsky and Souray (who have played in 4 all-star games combined, remember). Lets not forget that Kaberle is only 5 years the elder of Gilbert, but has 349 more points. It is funny how 1 off-season decreases a player's value so much. I wouldn't trade Kaberle straight up for Gilbert.

Burke has said that he is content with staying at 7th overall if he can't trade up. It still may happen that he trades down, but I'm not sure if the odds favor it or not.

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06-05-2009, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
Lately there have been threads where oilers fans say they expect Zajac for Gilbert. Or Gilbert for the 7th overall. There are tons of Gilbert for threads, and the asking price is huge. You dont see a lot of people going into those threads and laughing at those offers.
Oiler fans put Gilbert in a lot of trade proposals because he's a guy they think should bring a good return, and plays behind less tradeable players who have similar skills. Ditto Cogliano.

Oiler fans aren't trying to unload the guy as if he were Wade Redden or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
In reality Kaberle > Gilbert. Gilbert plays behind Vis in EDM. I think there is a very high chance that if Kaberle was in Edm, with Vis, he would play ahead of him.
I strongly doubt it.

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