It wouldn't surprise me at all if Dean acquired both of those guys with the intention of one day dealing them away.
He wants to build through the draft, and perhaps he figured having two guys who weren't draftd by LA, but were drafted earlier and thus would be more NHL ready/valuable when he was ready to start wheeling and dealing, would help him along the way.
Who knows.
It could also be (and to me, most likey is) the case that DL simply had more faith in these two guys than they turned out being worth. It's not black and white, either Dean knew they were trouble but brain farted and ignored it or that he he didn't bother doing his research. He probably knew about their respective fathers, and felt the individuals were quality enough to overcome it. Maybe Dean got sick of waiting for that, or maybe his faith was misplaced a little.
Its not like Dean got to interview either of these guys at their combines right?
No....but if you remember when Dean first started with the Kings there was an issue with Avery (he was suspended by Taylor before the previuos season ended). Dean made a judgement that the whole Avery issue was overblown and that he would rather "Try to tame a tiger than to paint stripes on a kitty cat". Dean seems to believe that he can somehow fix problem players. He was wrong about Avery......he was wrong about Cammi (many here believed he was a problem)......he was wrong about O'Sullivan and if things progress the way they have been he will be wrong about Johnson.
I'd really like to know why I'm labeled an apologist. All I've ever done is look at things objectively and I continue to do so. Yet all you ever do is take the negative side of things and when somebody responds to you with logic you either don't reply or make comment followed by a sarcasm smiley. Tikannen does the same thing. For example see the thread where he makes a comment about Handzus not being offered a contract by anyone besides the Kings. He conveniently never returns to admit he is wrong about that when he is refuted. I've responded to both post by him and you and you've both done the same thing. Another one I remember is when you recently made a post about the Kings having the top prospect pool around the 2004 season and then the moderator responds with the actual rankings and guess what your only other post in the thread contained? You guessed it... a smart ass comment followed by .
Call me whatever you want but at least when I am wrong about something I'm happy to admit it. You are world class at nitpicking and making sweeping generalizations.. congrats!
I don't even lump you, Captain Ron or Tikkanen in the same group. While you may agree on certain things, you all have your different take. Captain Ron always will respond when you call him on something and while I don't always agree with him, he certainly knows a lot about the CBA and will actually debate the points he makes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger23
This all sounds like Cammy part 2.
Except Cammalleri had more than 1 1/2 seasons under his belt and he was much more productive. Regardless of whether or not I agree with how that all went down, he had way more leverage than Jack Johnson.
Except Cammalleri had more than 1 1/2 seasons under his belt and he was much more productive. Regardless of whether or not I agree with how that all went down, he had way more leverage than Jack Johnson.
I completely agree with that....if Johnson actually believes he is worth more than $2.5 million / year (even that is pushing it)....then he is out of his mind.
I'd really like to know why I'm labeled an apologist.
Because from what I can tell, an 'apologist' is anyone who has ever agreed with DL without first vetting the issue like we're electing supreme court judges.
I like Kurrilino because he is a fellow Kings fan....but he is way off on many of his player evaluations.
Like when he said he would not trade Johnson straight up for Lecavalier.
Kurrilino is fun! His are some of my favorite posts to read, for a variety of reasons. I love that I can all at once adamantly disagree with his points but be completely on board with an enamored by the place of Kings love all his zany thoughts come from.
Kurrilino is fun! His are some of my favorite posts to read, for a variety of reasons. I love that I can all at once adamantly disagree with his points but be completely on board with an enamored by the place of Kings love all his zany thoughts come from.
I find AKAY47 to be the same in many regards.
Exhuberance is great.
As unbelievable as it may sound I use to believe that every Kings player was better than their opponents. That was when I was 15 - 25 years of age......since then I have gradually lost my Kings colored glasses and try to have a more realistic view of players. There are times when my Kings bias rears its ugly head though....like in the Kopitar vs Malkin debate from a few years ago.
The +/- stat is overrated....unless it supports your argument....then it is the best stat to prove a player's defensive ability.
Maybe, but every player would also benefit or be equally hurt by it's flaws.
That being said, when a player finishes dead last and second to last(Handzus and his bad knees were dead last that year) two years in a row it's a more accurate gauge than Kurrilino's eyes
As unbelievable as it may sound I use to believe that every Kings player was better than their opponents. That was when I was 15 - 25 years of age......since then I have gradually lost my Kings colored glasses and try to have a more realistic view of players. There are times when my Kings bias rears its ugly head though....like in the Kopitar vs Malkin debate from a few years ago.
Haha, that was me too! I remember telling my friends that Kopitar was as talented as Malkin.
Its not like Dean got to interview either of these guys at their combines right?
Well he was a scout in Philly at the time so it is very possible. Outside of that possibility, you'd think that he at least did a little research to know of O'Sullivan's past and while it is sad to think negatively about a person for things that happened to him that were out of his control, you'd have to assume they've effected him as a person. In the case of Johnson, one talk with his father would be enough to know there is potential for problems in the future. I'm not trying to be a dick but that guy really creeped me out on that documentary on FSN.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ron
I completely agree with that....if Johnson actually believes he is worth more than $2.5 million / year (even that is pushing it)....then he is out of his mind.
I agree and while it may not be Jack that put that idea in his head, he still surrounded by the people that did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM
Because from what I can tell, an 'apologist' is anyone who has ever agreed with DL without first vetting the issue like we're electing supreme court judges.
I know challenging DL's reasoning and his moves as GM are highly intellectual concepts. Something simple minds like myself don't have the ability to do. It just amazes me that people think they are so clever with their opinions. I'm as bitter as the next Kings fan but I have hope that things are changing and I'm content to call things as I see them whether they are good or bad. And you can't say that everything in the Kings organization is bad right now. Sure there is a lot of work to do and there have been mistakes along the way but they have made progress.
I'd really like to know why I'm labeled an apologist. All I've ever done is look at things objectively and I continue to do so. Yet all you ever do is take the negative side of things and when somebody responds to you with logic you either don't reply or make comment followed by a sarcasm smiley. Tikannen does the same thing. For example see the thread where he makes a comment about Handzus not being offered a contract by anyone besides the Kings. He conveniently never returns to admit he is wrong about that when he is refuted. I've responded to both post by him and you and you've both done the same thing. Another one I remember is when you recently made a post about the Kings having the top prospect pool around the 2004 season and then the moderator responds with the actual rankings and guess what your only other post in the thread contained? You guessed it... a smart ass comment followed by .
Call me whatever you want but at least when I am wrong about something I'm happy to admit it. You are world class at nitpicking and making sweeping generalizations.. congrats!
I don't even lump you, Captain Ron or Tikkanen in the same group. While you may agree on certain things, you all have your different take. Captain Ron always will respond when you call him on something and while I don't always agree with him, he certainly knows a lot about the CBA and will actually debate the points he makes.
Except Cammalleri had more than 1 1/2 seasons under his belt and he was much more productive. Regardless of whether or not I agree with how that all went down, he had way more leverage than Jack Johnson.
No, really - that comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Insofar as responding when corrected, I try to do that when appropriate, but I do have a life outside of HF.
Please try not to take the things that I say personally and I'll try to answer more responsibly in the future.
....but the smartass in me will still sneak out occasionally
Well he was a scout in Philly at the time so it is very possible. Outside of that possibility, you'd think that he at least did a little research to know of O'Sullivan's past and while it is sad to think negatively about a person for things that happened to him that were out of his control, you'd have to assume they've effected him as a person. In the case of Johnson, one talk with his father would be enough to know there is potential for problems in the future. I'm not trying to be a dick but that guy really creeped me out on that documentary on FSN.
I believe DL was a pro scout in Philly, Western Conference scout specifically, so while it is possible he participated in the combines or other visits/interviews, his main job was watching pro teams and players, not draft eligible players.
And yes, I agree, that doc on FSN scared me heavily. Creepy family, a little too into the college thing for my liking. I'm wary of anyone who views college as the ultimate highlite of life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drivelikejoewho
And you can't say that everything in the Kings organization is bad right now. Sure there is a lot of work to do and there have been mistakes along the way but they have made progress.
I think objectively speaking there is more positive than not. I know I feel better about the team now than I did anytime in the last 5 years. Whether that is because its true or I'm so myopic and simple minded (like yourself ) that I can't see, as KriticalKing would suggest, I am blindly following AEG's tail in circles and hanging helplessly on Dean's words in some twisted hockey fan version of the Matrix, or worse, Logan's Run.
So at what point did this cease to be a discussion about deal around Jack and Lecavalier? Or is it just the Kings board rule that each discussion devolves into analyzing Lombardi and his moves?
Objectively, such a deal to me "makes sense" because there's a lot of intangibles and huge risks being taken on by both teams. The risk that Jack doesn't meet his expected potential, demands more money, whatever vs. the perception that Lecavalier is on the downswing of his career + the enormous cap hit he brings. In a sick and twisted way, I feel like this type of trade would be even for both teams in the short run, absent evaluating any kinds of extras coming from both sides (extra picks, prospects, roster players, etc.)
BTW, I still feel like this team is meeting my expectations. I expected another bottom-team finish, but hoped for at best a black hole finish. They sorta met that, seeing as how they looked like they cared about playing games well into the spring. However, I never said I'm willing to wait forever for Lombardi's plan to pan out. Playoffs in the 09-10 is the bare minimum. I don't care what happens in the offseason as long as it produces short term and long term success for the team. This is going to be a HUGE offseason - and I thought last year was going to hold a lot of weight...
But even more interesting is to ask, what happens if the Kings DON'T make the playoffs this coming season? For me, that happening is a horrible thought because it even further undermines Lombardi's credibility, but what's the alternative? Keep going? Reload?
And you can't say that everything in the Kings organization is bad right now. Sure there is a lot of work to do and there have been mistakes along the way but they have made progress.
Even the most pessimistic fan cannot realistically say that everything is bad right now....that is as ridiculous as saying that Dean started with nothing when he was hired.....hint...hint.
I have agreed with some of Dean's moves along may way to being a member of the anti-Lombardi club.
I was for the Demitra trade....but aginst drafting Lewis with the acquired pick.
I was for drafting Bernier......even if it wasn't totally Dean's idea.
I was for the Johnson trade.....which may have been the wrong choice in hindsite.
I was for trading Norstrom and believed that Dean got a very good return in that deal.
I was for drafting Doughty and Teubert.
There are too many moves that Dean has made that I disagree with...but I have not disagreed with everything Lombardi has done.
I don't like the term 'apologist' either. Rather, me and others are DL supporters. Apologist implies that we feel we need to cover for his mistakes. That is not true. it is empirically self evident that DL has made mistakes, McCauley and Cloutier being the most obvious, but there are many others.
Seems to me, however, on the whole, the guy is doing a good job. He has done three things very well- drafting (better than any other Kings' GM before or since), player development and keeping us out of a cap hole. All of these are a reflection of putting together a young core that can grow and win together. Key to that core is the kids buying into what DL is trying to build. Guys like Greene, Doughty, Brown, Kopitar, Simmonds and others clearly do. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, not every player does. In some cases it is because DL misjudged them in other cases they may just be bad apples. In any case, one would be hard pressed to find a GM that misses when it comes to evaluating character. It is the intangible that is hardest to measure.
So does anyone here even care that on the Tampa Bay boards there is absolutely no mention of a trade with LA. As a matter of fact, all I see is a mention of him possibly going to Montreal.
Seems to me, however, on the whole, the guy is doing a good job. He has done three things very well- drafting (better than any other Kings' GM before or since)
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you Piston....but what evidence do you have to support that?
Only 3 players that Dean has drafted with the Kings are currently in the NHL....Doughty, Moller and Simmonds
Doughty was a no brainer
Moller was originally ranked as a 1st round pick that fell because he was viewed by some to be a small framed Euro.
Simmonds was a good pickup......but he was still a 2nd round pick. I believe that Dean must have believed someone else would get him soon or he would have waited till selection #82 to draft Simmonds.
When one of Dean's latter round picks makes an impact I will give him more credit on drafting......right now Loktionov has the best chance to do this....but that is still not a given.
Right, but seeking what he is worth in Russia as opposed to negotiating with the team who holds his rights is a rather interesting move that will ruffle management's feathers.
Besides European players bolting for Russia, have you heard of any other players who are not yet free agents (remember, he isn't a free agent until July 1), approaching an European club to negotiate a contract?
Given that he was going to use the Russian club as leverage for a bigger contract, I don't think Lombardi or any other management group will take kindly to these types of tactics.
If he wants to see what he is worth in the NHL, he can wait till July 1 and see if any teams will extend him an offer.
I think the difference is that he has his father for his agent. Had he had a real agency, this would have been done and never heard about because agencies have ties or connections that JJ Sr. does not. But don't think for a second it doesn't happen it almost every negotiation.
I am not necessarily disagreeing with you Piston....but what evidence do you have to support that?
Only 3 players that Dean has drafted with the Kings are currently in the NHL....Doughty, Moller and Simmonds
Doughty was a no brainer
Moller was originally ranked as a 1st round pick that fell because he was viewed by some to be a small framed Euro.
Simmonds was a good pickup......but he was still a 2nd round pick. I believe that Dean must have believed someone else would get him soon or he would have waited till selection #82 to draft Simmonds.
When one of Dean's latter round picks makes an impact I will give him more credit on drafting......right now Loktionov has the best chance to do this....but that is still not a given.
I suppose time will tell on this. Most observers would say that the Kings have never had such a deep list of blue chip prospects. Yes, many of them are early picks, but you still have to hit on them. It will be 2-3 years before DL can be given a full grade on his drafts. But, for those who have been a fan of the team longer than I, has any previous GM done as well at the draft able?
I suppose time will tell on this. Most observers would say that the Kings have never had such a deep list of blue chip prospects. Yes, many of them are early picks, but you still have to hit on them. It will be 2-3 years before DL can be given a full grade on his drafts. But, for those who have been a fan of the team longer than I, has any previous GM done as well at the draft able?
Well I was not a fan at the time....but I would find it hard to believe that Dean could match the success of the Kings 1979 and 1980 drafts. But as you said...only time will tell....which means declaring him the Kings best drafting GM is a bit pre-mature.
No, really - that comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. Insofar as responding when corrected, I try to do that when appropriate, but I do have a life outside of HF.
Please try not to take the things that I say personally and I'll try to answer more responsibly in the future.
....but the smartass in me will still sneak out occasionally
Well sorry I assumed you were referring to me as he was responding to my post when you made the "apologist" comment. I understand you have a life and I'm sure most of us do as well. But you did have time to make a wisecrack in the same thread and you could've at least acknowledged you were mistaken. I'm certainly not trying to tell you what to do it was more of an observation and response to you calling me an apologist.
There is another poster here who I won't mention their username that often posts misinformation and generally disregards well thought out responses. It is for that reason that I rarely read those posts anymore muchless respond. Consider yourself special because I actually still see and respond to your posts on occasion. I'm sure that means to the world to you.
I'm sure that means to the world to you. 
