HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Notices

Habs are really bad drafter...oh really?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-06-2009, 04:28 PM
  #1
LastChancePrice
Registered User
 
LastChancePrice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,020
vCash: 500
Habs are really bad drafter...oh really?

Everybody keep saying that we should look over Detroit to build and manage a succesful team and i think this is bs when it come to the team drafting, but i seriously think its a problem of managing and coaching. Why? Here is my tough and that made me realise after loking at that closely that we are not that bad drafters at all.

Lets look over the last 15 years and take a look at our team drafting, and, Detroit drafting. I was surprise that this team didnt got that much out of talent with their first rounder than we got. I think we were even more lucky then them. They got some 'lucky' shot with late rounders, and they have the team they have today because of these late rounders.

2008 Draft: Too early to say anything. None are NHL'er

2007 Draft: Pacioretty (1)already show great stuff, Weber(3) so far play a few games, and we all cant wait to see Subban(2). For Detroit again, nothing have show up of this draft. Advantage Montreal

2006 Draft: Both teama gasin really havent got anything spectacular showing up.

2005 Draft: Price (1) Latendresse (2) lucky draft Dagostini (6) and SKost(7) have show way more talent than Helm(5) and Abdelkader(2) who are the only one who we recently started hearing of. Again advantage Montreal.

2004 Draft: Chipchura (1) ,Grabovski (5) ..but we trade him for nothing.. , and lucky shot Streit (9) are good draft compare to detroit who only got one player, but a pretty good one, Johan Franzen(3). Im going to give the advantage to Detroit for having the better player, but habs got great stuff as Stret and Grabovski. Its close to a draw imo because Streit is a great player.

2003 Draft: Akost (1) Max Lapierre (2) and Obyrne (3) are way better draft than Quincey who anyway the Wings let go who start producing in LA.Oh and i forgot lucky draft Halak (9) .Advantage Montreal.

2002 Draft: Higgins (1) was weak vs Hudler(2), Freichman (2)and Filppula(3). Detroit got the better draft here.

2001 Draft: We got Komisarek(1) and Plekanec (3) and we still think that Perezhogin can deliver (2), vs absolutly nothing for the Wings. Advantage Montreal.

2000 Draft: Hainsey(1) is the only real regular we got out of this draft whe they got a good one with Kronwall (1) and Kopecky (2). Adv Detroit.

1999 Draft: Well both team really didnt get anything spectacular, but Detroit got one of these incredible lucky shot as Zetterberg (7). Adv Detroit.

1998 Draft: Ribeiro (2), Beauchemin (3), lucky shot Markov (6) and Ryder (8) are an amazing draft but Detroit got Fiscsher(1) who was good, and one other lucky shot as Datsyuk (6). I personnaly think we got the edge here. An all start DMen a great dmen an all start forward anda great forward vs an all start Forward. We got the advantage here.

1997 Draft: I think we both miss the boat here.

1996 Draft: Garon(2), Asham(3) and Clark(6) are NHL regular when Detroit got nothing in this draft. Advantage Montreal.

1995 Draft: Robidas (7) is a NHL regular when Detroit again got nothing in that draft. Advantage Montreal.

1994 Draft: Theodore (2)and Vokoun(9) were two top goaltender once in their career and Detroit got Dandenault and Holmstrom. Montreal got the edge here, but not by much.

1993 Draft: Koivu (1) AND Tucker (6) were by far better than Erikkson (1 ). Montreal, again got the edge.


SO is Detroit a real model to follow? Im not saying they are a bad organisation, but when some people say we suck drafting, well this is not the problem. We got our part of superstars, and its to our coaching and managment to find the tools to make it fit together, cause seriously, we got way better draft then Detroit. It just suck our managment let go players like Streit, Ryder, Ribeiro, Beauchemin, Tucker, cause with these core players, we would be ina wayyyy better position then we are now for getting better player to come play here.

Discuss id like to hear about your opinion about this subject,


Last edited by LastChancePrice: 06-07-2009 at 10:59 AM.
LastChancePrice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:35 PM
  #2
Fire Brunet*
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: .-.
Posts: 5,388
vCash: 500
Last year people were saying we were one of the best drafting teams. Amazing how one bad year can change opinions...

Fire Brunet* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:38 PM
  #3
Vasculio
Booya !
 
Vasculio's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: La Tuque
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,260
vCash: 500
I like the way you put things in perspective. IMO we're very good at drafting, it's at developing those players that we suck... but all that has something to do with coaching of course, and rookie coaching isn't necessarily the best way to go... I have a GREAT feeling for this season, especially for the young players, JM is an instructor, they will learn alot about fundamentals and that's what was severly lacking...

Vasculio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:44 PM
  #4
JHabs
HFB Partner
 
JHabs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,354
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to JHabs
I know eh, I always thought we were in the top5, interms of best drafting teams. I'd say Detroit, MTL top2

JHabs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:44 PM
  #5
Ginoro
Registered User
 
Ginoro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Montreal
Country: French Guiana Independentist
Posts: 853
vCash: 500
I agree that we're drafting pretty well in general but no matter how good our drafts were, they still have Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen and even if those 3 were the only 3 players that made it to the NHL for Detroit in the last 10 years, they'd still be ahead of us in my opinion in terms of drafting because yeah, it's nice to have depth like the Habs have but if all you have is depth and no real quality first line player, you're not going very far with it

Ginoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:45 PM
  #6
Freaky Habs Fan
Registered User
 
Freaky Habs Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: New-Brunswick
Posts: 9,496
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pazuzu View Post
I like the way you put things in perspective. IMO we're very good at drafting, it's at developing those players that we suck... but all that has something to do with coaching of course, and rookie coaching isn't necessarily the best way to go... I have a GREAT feeling for this season, especially for the young players, JM is an instructor, they will learn alot about fundamentals and that's what was severly lacking...
It might also be the coaching in Hamilton. I think it's time to get a coach with an offensive system. We draft many talented forward, but most of them can't put it all together. I know young players all have to learn to play better in their own zone, but an offensive system don't mean the absence of a defensive game. That's why I really hope to see Boucher in Hamilton...he would be great.

Freaky Habs Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:49 PM
  #7
Sined
The AndroidBugler!
 
Sined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,370
vCash: 500
You're undervaluing Abdelkader and Helm. They definitely do not look lost out there in the SCF.

Sined is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:53 PM
  #8
ChemiseBleuHonnete
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 9,377
vCash: 500
I do not agree with your analysis because Detroit has drafted well enough and developped their players well enough to have a few impact players, something we've been unable to do for ages. When we'll draft well enough or get lucky enough to have 3-4 impact players that came from drafting alone, I'll re-think my position. However, we draft very very well and we draft more decently good players than any other organisation in the league imo.

ChemiseBleuHonnete is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:59 PM
  #9
Habs 1909
Registered User
 
Habs 1909's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Montreal/Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,666
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sined View Post
You're undervaluing Abdelkader and Helm. They definitely do not look lost out there in the SCF.
I agree.
Helm is a speedy forward and has proved it in the playoffs. He's been one of the go-to guys as of late, especially with Datsyuk injured.
Abdelkader would've made any other team's roster in the league imo. He was putting up solid numbers with the Griffins (52pts in 76 games).

Habs 1909 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:59 PM
  #10
Rgolt
Registered User
 
Rgolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: montreal, qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,380
vCash: 500
y does it matter if u have good drafting if u cant develop your players?

Rgolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 04:59 PM
  #11
HabsHockey
Registered User
 
HabsHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,942
vCash: 500
Here read this

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ng_philosophy/

Then ask yourself how a team that keeps on drafting after us has won so many Stanley cups since we won our last. I'm not saying we suck but they are better than us at drafting in the past 15 years and developing the players they draft.


Last edited by HabsHockey: 06-06-2009 at 05:04 PM.
HabsHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 05:06 PM
  #12
Milan the God*
king karlsson
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,806
vCash: 860
I always thought that the Habs were pretty good drafters. What impresses me the most is that they got loads of good players with picks not in the first round.

Milan the God* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 05:21 PM
  #13
Marksman
Registered User
 
Marksman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Country: Finland
Posts: 3,626
vCash: 500
Detroit has been doing better with the handicap they have. Being a successful team means you're drafting later than most other teams (including Habs).

Marksman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 05:29 PM
  #14
Bobby Clark
Spicy Sausage
 
Bobby Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Chez Bobby
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,101
vCash: 500
The difference between Detroit and everybody else is how well they can develop player.If a player shows some potential you can be sure that they will get the most out of him.It's also pretty crazy that they can take a guy like Cleary who was a one-dimensional superstar in junior but struggled in the NHL and turn him into a very solid two-way player.

Bobby Clark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 05:32 PM
  #15
Originalsix
Registered User
 
Originalsix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 516
vCash: 500

Originalsix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 05:43 PM
  #16
HABitual Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 370
vCash: 500
It is comparing apples to oranges. It is necessary to compare NHL depth before talking about prospects and development. Due to the cupboard being bare in Montreal players got pushed to the NHL much quicker then those in the Detroit system. If they were playing for Detroit, more then likely we would still be waiting for the likes of S Kostityn, Lapierre, Latendresse and Price to be just now getting a crack at full-time roster spots. Instead all got NHL time early in their pro careers and could not be sent down to Hamilton because they played too many games, unlike guys like Helm for Detroit. As the NHL club improves, players needing more development time will get it at the AHL level and not at the NHL level as is currently the case. The Detroit situation is Matt D'Agostini getting to play after paying his dues in the AHL for a couple of seasons, not like in Montreal where Max Pacioretty, Yannik Weber and Ben Maxwell all saw NHL time as AHL rookies.

HABitual Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 05:44 PM
  #17
#57
Registered User
 
#57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,640
vCash: 500
What I found unbelievable is that Detroit's scouting staff thought that Jari Tolsa, Andrei Maximenko and Kent McDonell were all better prospects than Henrik Zetterberg. Tolsa and Z actually played in the SAME LEAGUE.

And that Ryan Barnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Carl Steen and Adam DeLeeuw were all better than Pavel Datsyuk.

I mean, come on. Granted, all the other NHL teams passed up on Dats and Zets, but seriously, Detroit lucked out on them, it is pretty obvious.

They can developp their prospects better than any team out there, and that is why they have been so successful for such a long time.

#57 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 06:03 PM
  #18
MrNasty
Registered User
 
MrNasty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,434
vCash: 500
The most obvious difference between Montreal and Detroit is not the drafting. It is that Detroit surrounds their young players with veterans. They are the oldest team in the league and everyone praises them because they have good young players. They only let their very best young players play in the NHL and only after they have been seasoned in the AHL. You will notice that most of the rookies that start playing for Detroit are closer to 25 than 20.

This is blasphemy on this board...but it is true. Instead of filling their depth with young guys they fill all the marginal positions with vets who accept their role. Nobody is thrown into the NHL in Detroit unless they are premier talent. Old players make young players better. Everyone on here criticize when anybody that is over 30 is even rumoured to be going to Montreal

MrNasty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 06:07 PM
  #19
Kriss E
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 22,684
vCash: 500
I think a reason why Detroit is good in the late rounds/picks is because they try focus on their late picks.
They concentrate a lot on players that they know will be drafted either late or not at all.

So basically, they put a lot of their attention on many guys that are off most team's radar.
I think that might be part of the reason why they have so many late round picks turning out great.

Luck also has a part of it, but I feel strategy is also a big part.

This is just a thought that popped into mind, might be completely off.

Kriss E is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 06:10 PM
  #20
kent_carlson
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 763
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #57 View Post
What I found unbelievable is that Detroit's scouting staff thought that Jari Tolsa, Andrei Maximenko and Kent McDonell were all better prospects than Henrik Zetterberg. Tolsa and Z actually played in the SAME LEAGUE.

And that Ryan Barnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Carl Steen and Adam DeLeeuw were all better than Pavel Datsyuk.

I mean, come on. Granted, all the other NHL teams passed up on Dats and Zets, but seriously, Detroit lucked out on them, it is pretty obvious.

They can developp their prospects better than any team out there, and that is why they have been so successful for such a long time.
But at the same time, they could not developed the talent of
Jari Tolsa, Andrei Maximenko and Kent McDonell or Ryan Barnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Carl Steen and Adam DeLeeuw and so on. Dats and Zets are 2 outliers, probably 2 guys with a late development, not sure it is because of the Wings. But it was great scouting.

kent_carlson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 06:31 PM
  #21
Chomsky
Registered User
 
Chomsky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainKomisarek View Post
I agree.
Helm is a speedy forward and has proved it in the playoffs. He's been one of the go-to guys as of late, especially with Datsyuk injured.
Abdelkader would've made any other team's roster in the league imo. He was putting up solid numbers with the Griffins (52pts in 76 games).
He'll still be a career bottom 6 forward. A great one, but still.

Chomsky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 06:56 PM
  #22
OneSharpMarble
Registered User
 
OneSharpMarble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,200
vCash: 500
Difference is we draft players like Latendresse and Detroit drafts players like Franzen and Zetterberg.

We draft zero 1st line talent but we sure do have alot of 3rd and 4th liners.

OneSharpMarble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 07:24 PM
  #23
toshiro
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Western Canuckland
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,951
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to toshiro
Detroit also drafted for pure talent and hit homers with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. Hudler is an example of how they will take a chance. Chip etc are wasted picks as they will never skate well enough. The Habs need star centers and need to swingaway hoping for homers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by #57 View Post
What I found unbelievable is that Detroit's scouting staff thought that Jari Tolsa, Andrei Maximenko and Kent McDonell were all better prospects than Henrik Zetterberg. Tolsa and Z actually played in the SAME LEAGUE.

And that Ryan Barnes, Tomek Valtonen, Jake McCracken, Brent Hobday, Carl Steen and Adam DeLeeuw were all better than Pavel Datsyuk.

I mean, come on. Granted, all the other NHL teams passed up on Dats and Zets, but seriously, Detroit lucked out on them, it is pretty obvious.

They can developp their prospects better than any team out there, and that is why they have been so successful for such a long time.

toshiro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 07:31 PM
  #24
Corey
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,300
vCash: 500
Bah , a spin job if I ever saw one. WEcan't blame it all on Houle. The A. Savard-Timmins regime drafted for eight years without presenting the Habs with a contending team. That's a long time to go without real results. There are lots of under-30 players on the Red Wings who could easily make the Habs and displace some of the sorry excuses we see 41 times a season at the Bell Centre. The OP's dis of Abdelkader and Helm rings hollow when we compare their recent playoff contributions to those of the young Habs.

Corey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-06-2009, 07:37 PM
  #25
Sined
The AndroidBugler!
 
Sined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,370
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
He'll still be a career bottom 6 forward. A great one, but still.
At this rate so is Lapierre and Latendresse.

Sined is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:12 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.