HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Balsillie/Phoenix Part VI

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-09-2009, 05:12 PM
  #51
bishop12
Ovyously
 
bishop12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takabru View Post
The league cannot afford to expand. The only way that would work is to drop to 29 teams then expand back to 30.
the league could easily expand two more teams...

bishop12 is online now  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:15 PM
  #52
bbud
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
True -- no imposition on another team's territory.

I think there's a fee to the league for relocation, plus any territorial fees. (But I was not paying attention to previous relocations/expansions.)
what were last teams Atlanta and Columbus and they paid over 200 closer to 300 didnt they but does teh losses JB or anyone woudl need to pay to move count against these #s i just wonder what will be done to satisfy creditors and if Jb has to pay them how does NHL not take hit they are technically saying they ran this team so they owe now dont they?

bbud is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:17 PM
  #53
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 4,921
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyScholar View Post
Yeah looks like the NHL is wanting a $100 million dollar fee. Here is the link:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/647795

So this is obviously not as much as most posters thought on here.

If Balsillie agreed he would be paying $100 mil + $212.5 plus the $5 million or so he said he'd put into the arena upgrades.

So around $317.5 million for a team in Hamilton. I'd say this is reasonable.
I think the $100 million might just be a "relocation fee" and not any parts of "territorial rights fees."

He might have to pay $212 for the team, $100 to the NHL to move it to Hamilton, AND $X to Buffalo/Toronto for infringing on their territories.

The $100m would just be making up for a lost expansion fee to the NHL for the Hamilton area.

KevFu is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:19 PM
  #54
HabsAtak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 205
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mind_the_gap View Post
the league could easily expand two more teams...
I would agree with you before last September and the start of the KHL and the European leagues gaining more momentum. Now, though, the league could not afford to expand any more than any other league in North America can.

32 teams would not only dilute the talent even more it would bring more troubles for more teams since with 32 teams the revenues would go up slightly and raise the floor CAP. Struggling teams now would struggle more so and bubble teams would start to struggle.

HabsAtak is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:19 PM
  #55
Fugu
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
Wait, you're right on that math.

I was drawing from a previous post (1% thing vs Hamilton series replicating revenue).

Anyhow, long and short of it is, how many millions of dollars in revenue have the Islanders ever created? In 37 years, its more than the $4 million the Rangers got.

Same would hold true for Buffalo. You're talking tickets, you're talking advertising revenue, you're talking corporate sponsorship, you're talking merchandise, TV ratings, TV advertising. Everything. It would not take long for the $100 million to be dwarfed by those losses.
No, TV rights are Canadian (which belongs to the Leafs north of the border in that territory) and American (Buffalo I think is carried by MSG).

Furthermore broadcast territories are defined differently.

 
Old
06-09-2009, 05:19 PM
  #56
Bittco
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Country: United States
Posts: 94
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takabru View Post
What happens if the NHL wins this case and regains control of the Coyotes and then moves the team anyways to KC, LV or Winnipeg? Is there anything Balsillie can do about that?
i'm no expert in bankruptcy law but i thought the nhls argument in part was that it controlled the team and therefore the team never filed for bankruptcy- if this is the case the deathgrip lease with glendale still applies. my understanding is either jb gets the team or it stays in phx for a very long time

Bittco is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:20 PM
  #57
bishop12
Ovyously
 
bishop12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takabru View Post
I would agree with you before last September and the start of the KHL and the European leagues gaining more momentum. Now, though, the league could not afford to expand any more than any other league in North America can.

32 teams would not only dilute the talent even more it would bring more troubles for more teams since with 32 teams the revenues would go up slightly and raise the floor CAP. Struggling teams now would struggle more so and bubble teams would start to struggle.
it wouldn't raise the cap floor...b.c there would be two more teams in play. if anything it would lower teh cap floor

bishop12 is online now  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:21 PM
  #58
Tra La La
Registered User
 
Tra La La's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buffalo, New York
Country: Ireland
Posts: 4,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
True -- no imposition on another team's territory.

I think there's a fee to the league for relocation, plus any territorial fees. (But I was not paying attention to previous relocations/expansions.)
16 years ago the kings got 25 million from Anahiem. Half of the 50 million dollar expansion fee.

Tra La La is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:21 PM
  #59
Fugu
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I think the $100 million might just be a "relocation fee" and not any parts of "territorial rights fees."

He might have to pay $212 for the team, $100 to the NHL to move it to Hamilton, AND $X to Buffalo/Toronto for infringing on their territories.

The $100m would just be making up for a lost expansion fee to the NHL for the Hamilton area.
Nowhere has any other fee been identified.

 
Old
06-09-2009, 05:22 PM
  #60
bbud
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,948
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
Wait, you're right on that math.

I was drawing from a previous post (1% thing vs Hamilton series replicating revenue).

Anyhow, long and short of it is, how many millions of dollars in revenue have the Islanders ever created? In 37 years, its more than the $4 million the Rangers got.

Same would hold true for Buffalo. You're talking tickets, you're talking advertising revenue, you're talking corporate sponsorship, you're talking merchandise, TV ratings, TV advertising. Everything. It would not take long for the $100 million to be dwarfed by those losses.
I do think its crazy to claim canadian fans though as reasons to bump payout and my reasoning has some merits 1- new cross border rules will allready reduce #s i know many people who refuse to submit to new id requirements after crossing for years and literally leaving lots of cash behind for the pleasure its ticked lots of canadians off, as far as Tv and merchandise i see that as better more local revenues and sales and teh NHl shares those so Sabres lose nothing there

bbud is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:22 PM
  #61
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 66,277
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
No, TV rights are Canadian (which belongs to the Leafs north of the border in that territory) and American (Buffalo I think is carried by MSG).

Furthermore broadcast territories are defined differently.
Recall that Judge Baum in a previous hearing laughed that he had the power to demand that a Hamilton-based team would have "the same" TV rights as the Leafs per Balsillie's APA. (IOW, he wasn't going to grant them anything; they'd have to negotiate it themselves.)

AIUI, broadcast territories are more like 90 miles around city center compared to the 50 mile territory limit.

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:23 PM
  #62
Evil Doctor
Cryin' Hank crying
 
Evil Doctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
We really missed an opportunity to call the second thread "Balsillie/Phoenix 2: Electric Boogaloo"
Balsillie/Phoenix VI: The Return of the Jedi?

Darn it, yours is way better....

Evil Doctor is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:27 PM
  #63
Fugu
Guest
 
Country:
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Recall that Judge Baum in a previous hearing laughed that he had the power to demand that a Hamilton-based team would have "the same" TV rights as the Leafs per Balsillie's APA. (IOW, he wasn't going to grant them anything; they'd have to negotiate it themselves.)

AIUI, broadcast territories are more like 90 miles around city center compared to the 50 mile territory limit.
I do not believe that the Sabres have a Canadian broadcast contract, do they?

 
Old
06-09-2009, 05:27 PM
  #64
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 66,277
vCash: 500
cbctom: City says it would lose 500m dollars

cbctom: Coyotes say it would be only $5-$7m with a broken lease.

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:28 PM
  #65
smokes lets go
Registered User
 
smokes lets go's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,336
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars99Lobo37 View Post
Obviously. KC and LV don't have two teams less than an hour in distance away from them that have to be paid.
Even if they move to winnipeg i see a fee being paid too.

smokes lets go is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:29 PM
  #66
CGG
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 416
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevFu View Post
I think the $100 million might just be a "relocation fee" and not any parts of "territorial rights fees."
Has it been made public yet what this "relocation fee" was for Carolina, Dallas, Phoenix and Denver? Anyone? I'm guessing considerably less than $100 million, and probably not far away from $0.

And before someone answers smugly, no, I'm not talking about territorial fees paid to teams (like Tor, Buffalo), only what these relocating teams paid to the LEAGUE.

CGG is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:29 PM
  #67
HabsAtak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 205
vCash: 500
If Balsillie loses he should get together with Winnipeg, Quebec City and other US cities to form their own league.

HabsAtak is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:31 PM
  #68
Brodie
voted best
 
Brodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 15,451
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I do not believe that the Sabres have a Canadian broadcast contract, do they?
No, they don't.

Brodie is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:31 PM
  #69
HabsAtak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 205
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I do not believe that the Sabres have a Canadian broadcast contract, do they?
No they do not.

HabsAtak is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:33 PM
  #70
Tra La La
Registered User
 
Tra La La's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Buffalo, New York
Country: Ireland
Posts: 4,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I do not believe that the Sabres have a Canadian broadcast contract, do they?
Nope, just MSG.

Tra La La is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:34 PM
  #71
VelvetJones
Registered User
 
VelvetJones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,416
vCash: 500
Arash Madani:

THIS IS A CLASSIC ... I cannot confirm this, so I'll leave it to the guys there.

The Glendale rep at the podium was asked by the judge if he has ever been to a Coyotes game.

"Yes, your honour. This year. I went to a game against the Capitals. The Coyotes did not prevail but I was disturbed by how many empty seats there were here."

A rumbling of discontent behind me from the six Coyotes season ticket holders.

Phoenix, they tell me, WON that game ...

Oh boy.

VelvetJones is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:37 PM
  #72
HabsAtak
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 205
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mind_the_gap View Post
it wouldn't raise the cap floor...b.c there would be two more teams in play. if anything it would lower teh cap floor
If the league is to expand they are going to expand to money making venues. This means at one team in Canada and maybe another team in northern US. This will mean way more revenue evening if it is being split now by 32 teams. The CAP floor will most definitely go up because the CAP will go up.

The same thing is going to happen if Phoenix is moved to Southern Ontario. The CAP is going to be affected.

HabsAtak is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:39 PM
  #73
Stars99Lobo37
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Sec 314 - Richardson
Country: United States
Posts: 45,067
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMacdonald View Post
Phoenix, they tell me, WON that game ...

Oh boy.
http://coyotes.nhl.com/team/app?game...9&service=page

2-1 Yotes.

Stars99Lobo37 is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:43 PM
  #74
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 66,277
vCash: 500
From Twitter:
kash1212: Moyes attorney says Glendale is legally entitled to damages but they are capped

LadyStanley is offline  
Old
06-09-2009, 05:43 PM
  #75
KevFu
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Orleans
Country: United States
Posts: 4,921
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gc2005 View Post
Has it been made public yet what this "relocation fee" was for Carolina, Dallas, Phoenix and Denver? Anyone? I'm guessing considerably less than $100 million, and probably not far away from $0.

And before someone answers smugly, no, I'm not talking about territorial fees paid to teams (like Tor, Buffalo), only what these relocating teams paid to the LEAGUE.
That was my point.
The expansion fee a team pays is to purchase the rights to operate an NHL team in that market. Anaheim paid $50 million as a fee to operate in Anaheim (an expansion fee), and $25 mil to LA as a territorial rights fee because that market infringed on LA's market.

I'm suggesting that the NHL may be saying $100 million to switch markets from Phoenix to Hamilton (some of this money likely being given to Glendale), with the territorial rights infringements still TBD.

Fugu, you mention "Nowhere has any other fee been identified."

I'm used to seeing "territorial" and "expansion." and thinking "relocation" is the new one.

KevFu is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:55 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.