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Montreal 5th best draft of 2004 per games played

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Old
06-10-2009, 02:52 PM
  #51
DaHabMan
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the thing about green is that 28 other teams didn't pick him so......

Also the fact that we had the 2 best players at the end of the draft shows that there were NO homerun picks to be made because....we picked the best players

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06-10-2009, 02:53 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by tigidou View Post
The fact that our picks play does not mean they re good. It means our team is not good in the first place.

That is my opinion.
Teams are good or bad because of their players, not the other way around.

edited to add: In the last few years, the habs have made sure to always have a few extra vets around just in case the promising kids couldn't make it. So it's not like we are playing kids just because we don't have anyone else.

Note that playing kids too much isn't necessarily a good idea, even if they have talent. Rookies make mistakes and mistakes kill NHL hockey. But they have a huge advantage over older players, in that they cost way less.


Last edited by Goldthorpe: 06-10-2009 at 02:58 PM.
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06-10-2009, 02:54 PM
  #53
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Not much of a trend there...

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06-10-2009, 02:56 PM
  #54
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if most of your picks play then you have a good scouting staff. It means every year, you dont have to spend money on a ufa to replace a 3-4 liner because you can fill that need internally on the cheap. Plus, with most of the picks making it, there is a higher chance that one of them will become a star.

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06-10-2009, 03:02 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
Price played in the AHL and won the Calder Cup before making the Habs. Latendresse looked brilliant at 3 training camps before making it. Pacioretty also played in the AHL at least. Do you really think that plucking D out of juniors and making them regulars on the Habs is a good idea? It's not a formula for success at all. In fact, it's the opposite. You just can't just put a bunch of young D who don't have all the skills yet against grown NHLers and superstars. Without proper guidance, it will be a disaster. You can't skimp on D. Any team that does gets NOWHERE. Look at TB last year. They were just too young on D. And they didn't have any mentors, either.

Now, as for getting some good D, it's obvious that you should only try and sign some of them. Obviously, J-Bo is number one, but don't count on it. Then you try to any of Beauchemin/Komisarek/Ohlund.
Behind that, option C is Spacek/Scuderi/Zanon. Spacek is better than you give him credit for. Not ideal but okay and pretty good offensively. As for Aucoin, he's definitely a last resort and you shouldn't overpay for him either. He's way too slow these days. Same reason I would hate Hall Gill on this team. But, no matter what, you just can't go into the season relying on Markov and Hamrlik to hold the fort on their own. Gorges is still fairly young and IMO still developing. Then you have a bunch of guys like O'Byrne/Webber/Subban who have little to no NHL experience. That just won't work.
Alright, thanks for the answer.

As for the D problem, it's probably because I don't feel too optimistic about Gainey signing a good defenceman to a good contract without overpaying. The way the market looks today where Jeff Finger wins more than Kronwall, Zidlicky and as much as Sami Salo, Ohlund and Chris Philips...

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06-10-2009, 03:03 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
So apparently when other teams do it, it's okay. Yet, because this is Montreal, we're obviously not doing it right? That's just ridiculous. People find a way to criticize everything that is done here. We're not doing this like other teams!! We must be doing it wrong!! We're doing it like other teams, but they have it better!!! Wow.
Not necessarly, I think some other teams might have been lucky with their picks. I think we are doing pretty good with ours but the fact that they are playing a lot of games does mean they're the best picks on the league..

So I think the picks played a lot because the average "skill" on our team was lower.
And you think the picks played a lot because they are really good.
I think everything is wrong and you think everything is right...

When you look at our picks, do you find that they are much better than the ones from other teams? We do have quantity, but quality ?

overall, I think we're doing OK, I would prefer we have more picks with "home run" upside. Andei K. is one. We would then have a lot more bust, but perhaps some success...

Edit: on defense, I feel we currently have several potential "home run" picks.. the future will tell.

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06-10-2009, 03:13 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by tigidou View Post
Not necessarly, I think some other teams might have been lucky with their picks. I think we are doing pretty good with ours but the fact that they are playing a lot of games does mean they're the best picks on the league..

So I think the picks played a lot because the average "skill" on our team was lower.
And you think the picks played a lot because they are really good.
I think everything is wrong and you think everything is right...

When you look at our picks, do you find that they are much better than the ones from other teams? We do have quantity, but quality ?

overall, I think we're doing OK, I would prefer we have more picks with "home run" upside. Andei K. is one. We would then have a lot more bust, but perhaps some success...

Edit: on defense, I feel we currently have several potential "home run" picks.. the future will tell.
I think our picks played because we were rebuilding. Does this mean the team was bad? No! I would say that Chicago, entering the year, was rebuilding, too. It just doesn't make sense to say they played because we had no one better. If the team was that bad, then throwing in a bunch of youngsters would have made the team worse and hurt the development of the players.

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06-10-2009, 03:14 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Hermamoud View Post
Alright, thanks for the answer.

As for the D problem, it's probably because I don't feel too optimistic about Gainey signing a good defenceman to a good contract without overpaying. The way the market looks today where Jeff Finger wins more than Kronwall, Zidlicky and as much as Sami Salo, Ohlund and Chris Philips...
Well, we have the most cap space to overpay for a D. Hopefully they can pick up at least one good vet.

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06-10-2009, 04:08 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
That means jock. When are you people going to realize that the Montreal Canadiens is NOT a junior team. The goal isn't to have a majority of your picks make it to the NHL, it's to win the cup. Staffing a team with average players doesn't get you anywhere period.
While I think your post is a bit oversimplistic in its destruction of habs' accomplishment in the drafts, I kinda agree with you.

I would trade some good drafts in terms of numbers of game played and players in the NHL, to have one draft that would give a star player.

I think the ideal would be to have a little bit of both. If you draft a star potential player or two, surrounded by drafts with ok to average success in terms of number of NHL players and gameplayed, now you win a cup. You don't have to always draft 3-5 true NHL players every year. You have to draft the good ones to win.

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06-10-2009, 04:42 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
If the majority of your picks makes the NHL, you will win the Cup, for sure...
Unless your team of picks suck ball sacks!

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06-10-2009, 04:51 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by LePoche69 View Post
While I think your post is a bit oversimplistic in its destruction of habs' accomplishment in the drafts, I kinda agree with you.

I would trade some good drafts in terms of numbers of game played and players in the NHL, to have one draft that would give a star player.

I think the ideal would be to have a little bit of both. If you draft a star potential player or two, surrounded by drafts with ok to average success in terms of number of NHL players and gameplayed, now you win a cup. You don't have to always draft 3-5 true NHL players every year. You have to draft the good ones to win.
Ah yes I agree, after all there is 4 lines to staff, not just 1 or 2.

I've always been very critical of the Montreal Canadiens drafts in the last 4 to 5 years, because I feel the balance isn't there and we use the "we have lots of players who played in the NHL" as an excuse mostly. We got good picks in these drafts no doubt, but there's several times where I would have preferred an organization taking a bit more risks than just going for safe picks or long term projects.

In any case at some point they'll have no choice anymore and they'll have to pick a break it or make it prospect. Otherwise, I can see the team turning into the next Maple Leafs; Trading lots of picks and/or patching top line holes with money alone. That wouldn't be a nice day. Some fans are already suggesting we do this with crazy offer sheets, and I somewhat feel that our drafts are in the factors that lead them to suggest this.

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06-10-2009, 04:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
Does this mean the team was bad?
I'm trying to understand at which point the Habs became a bad team. They had what by all accounts is a rotten year (more like a rotten half-year) and still made the playoffs despite a large number of key injuries; the year before, they were a 100-plus point team. All mostly because of those draft picks we're talking about.

You can be disappointed in this year's results, but that only means that they were perceived to be good and failed to meet expectations -- if they were genuinely bad, nobody would be disappointed with their finish, after all.

There seems to be this undercurrent of thought in the media and on message boards that the Habs are completely terrible. I don't think that the facts support it, and I don't think it's very healthy. I'm trying to figure out what the motivation for spreading that is.

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06-10-2009, 05:03 PM
  #63
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Good to know...

Although the problem with the drafting since Timmins came here is that we always seem to draft a lot of good players but we never draft star players. We hit for a good average but we can't hit homeruns. Price may very well become a true star player, but we have to remember we really got lucky getting the 5th pick in the lottery...

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06-10-2009, 06:15 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
Yeah but we let, arguably, a top-5 NHL defenseman walk away for nothing.

GO GAINEY!

PS. How are we off to a good start, when we switched Grabovski for Pateryn (we'll see) and let Streit walk?
Are you ****ing serious now? Omg...

Streit didn't magically become JayBo over the summer.. he's the good old Streit who played forward for us, but on a ****** team.

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06-10-2009, 06:22 PM
  #65
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what kills me is that from that very good draft, the two best players we picked (who've totaled almost 400 gp since '04) are no longer with us, and all we have left to show for them is Greg Pateryn...

i'll say it again, great drafting, which we have had over the past 7-8 seasons, is completely useless unless the team does a better than average job of managing it's NHL talent.

the 2004 draft is a crystal clear example of what is plaguing this team under Gainey's watch. He needs to find a better way to either retain, or exchange the talent his scouting department stocks the team with if we want to cross over into the leagues elite and stay there.

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06-10-2009, 07:24 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
If the majority of your picks makes the NHL, you will win the Cup, for sure...
Quote:
I'd rather have ONE star than FIVE journeymen from a particular draft. Interchangeable mediocrities can be picked up at any time from a variety of sources.
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only one of these statements is true


Only one of those statements was not made in jest.


Last edited by Teufelsdreck: 06-10-2009 at 07:31 PM.
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06-10-2009, 07:29 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
what kills me is that from that very good draft, the two best players we picked (who've totaled almost 400 gp since '04) are no longer with us, and all we have left to show for them is Greg Pateryn...

i'll say it again, great drafting, which we have had over the past 7-8 seasons, is completely useless unless the team does a better than average job of managing it's NHL talent.

the 2004 draft is a crystal clear example of what is plaguing this team under Gainey's watch. He needs to find a better way to either retain, or exchange the talent his scouting department stocks the team with if we want to cross over into the leagues elite and stay there.
People blame Gainey yet if Carbonneau gave Streit minutes as a left defenceman we may have saw he could've been a good defenceman for us, Gainey wasn't the one who was playing him on left wing.

Also Carbonneau wasn't a fan of Grabovski, we ended up getting good value for Grabovski back considering he could've bolted for the KHL and got us nothing. We got a decent D prospect and a 2nd rounder for someone we drafted 5th round which is pretty good asset management as Grabovski's value wasn't very high due to his attitude and smaller size.

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06-10-2009, 07:42 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Le depisteur View Post
You have more chance to have a star if 5 of your picks, year after year, make the NHL...
The Habs have a number of players with at least some NHL experience as well as a number who are playing elsewhere. Contrary to what you say, I'd trade all of the Habs' part-time NHLers from the last 3 drafts for Ovechkin, Malkin, or Crosby. (I exclude those prospects who haven't yet played for the Habs in that deal).

Oh yes, please don't remind us of a certain hockey genius with your choice of an emoticon.

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06-10-2009, 07:46 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
Of course, but you also need depth. We are a deep team and it's helping us in some way. It creates a positive problem within the team. It also gives you trading bates like Grabovski...

We aren't the best team for drafting in the first round, but at least, we are good in the later rounds. IMO, we should be happy that we are able to get so many NHLers with the draft...like someone said, at some point, we'll hit a home run.
The Habs got top value for Grabovski? I didn't know. As for depth, the 2008-09 Habs had quantity but not quality at D and no depth at all at center.

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06-10-2009, 10:13 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
The Habs got top value for Grabovski? I didn't know. As for depth, the 2008-09 Habs had quantity but not quality at D and no depth at all at center.
Even if Grabovski would have added depth at center, he was pretty low in the depth chart. Koivu, Plekanec and Lapierre were ahead of him, and Grabovski is not a 3rd-4th line center. Plekanec just had a pretty good season with 69 points and had super chemistry with Kovalev and Andrei Kostitsyn. Grabovski was obviously the odd man out, and I don't think he would have liked to be sent back to Hamilton, so Gainey had no choice but to trade him.

I'm a bit disappointed that he traded him in his own division and in the long term, that trade would kill any hope of us beating the Bruins.

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06-11-2009, 08:20 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
He was, from reports, willing to sign for about $2M/y.. and Gainey opted to let him walk.

I just think it was a horrible decision, especially with how much Streit was improving each and every year.
Gainey not signing him during the year was an obvious blunder, but some fans will never accept that Gainey is not infallible, and they will defend anything he does. There's a portion of the fanbase who still supports his Ribero and Huet trades; there's no reasoning with them.

But at the end of the day, you have to give credit to Gainey and Co. for taking the risk to draft and sign an unproven 27 yr-old Swiss defenseman who never played in North America before; and more credit for keeping him after a difficult rookie season. We had 2 great years of Streit for practically nothing (7th rd pick + 600k cap hit); sure it sucks losing him, but it was a successful and worthwhile endeavor.

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06-11-2009, 08:43 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by FrankMTL View Post
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article..._teams_ranked/

Montreal has gotten an average of 50.44 games out of each of their picks which is good for 5th in the league. They also drafted the best player in 3 of the 9 rounds.

What's even more impressive is the fact that our first round pick that year (Kyle Chipchura) has yet to even become a regular.
It prove also that the Habs in early 2000 were pretty weak

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06-11-2009, 10:58 AM
  #73
Hermamoud
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Originally Posted by Brisk-Illusion View Post
Gainey not signing him during the year was an obvious blunder, but some fans will never accept that Gainey is not infallible, and they will defend anything he does. There's a portion of the fanbase who still supports his Ribero and Huet trades; there's no reasoning with them.
Well the way I see it, Gainey wanted Price to get as much playoff experience as possible, and Huet was most probably not coming back to Montreal, knowing that he wouldn't be the #1 goalie here anymore. Instead of keeping him and losing him for nothing, Gainey decided to trade him to a very competitive team and to make him look good. It worked out, Huet looked like an All Star in Washington and cashed in on a very lucrative contract that the Canadiens would have never offered to him. In the long run, I found that it was a very classy move by Gainey.

There's also that rumour that Johan Hedberg was supposed to come to Montreal along with Hossa.

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06-11-2009, 06:42 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Brisk-Illusion View Post
Gainey not signing him during the year was an obvious blunder
It only qualifies if it was obvious at the time. And at the time, Streit was a guy who was a power play specialist and fourth-line winger for the team. In hindsight, we could certainly have used him, but if we could manage by hindsight, we'd have drafted Iginla and Hossa.

And by the way, while what Streit has done on the Islanders is admirable, don't make the mistake of calling him a bona fide #1 D-man. He's a better defenseman than anyone expected him to be on Montreal, but he's the best D-man on a pretty bad defense and he didn't get all the tough match-ups either, splitting them with Brendan Witt. Streit is a good player, but he's not comparable to Markov.

If he'd re-signed in Montreal in 08-09, he'd still have been the Habs' fourth D-man on the depth chart at best, and unfortunately for him, two of the three guys in front of him play on his side.

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06-11-2009, 08:36 PM
  #75
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I'm glad Streit's contract is out of the way. He's 31 and the Habs should go younger and stronger.

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