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Anyone checking this site every few hours hoping to see "Flyers fire John Stevens"

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Old
06-13-2009, 01:54 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
When Paddock got fired, people here went nuts saying "Come on Holmer! Pull the trigger!!"

You were one of them.

Then Ottawa continued their collapse, the Flyers went on to the Conference Finals, and people like you had to fall back on "Marty stood on his head!" and "Price was terrible!!!".

Funny, isnt it? For you, it became about the players when they started winning.
I think most people feel that the Senators was not Paddock's mess. They continued their free fall this past season with 2 new coaches. We don't know how this core of players would react, most of them weren't here when Hitchcock was fired. Timonen and Hartnell have never played for a team in the NHL when their coach was fired. The same goes for a few others.

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06-13-2009, 10:08 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by qwertysac View Post
i hear so many people keep repeating this...

can you please enlighten us all and give us an example of a system you'd like to see put in place, since the flyers "lack" one? or better yet, just start by telling us what a system is.
One where the team knows how to break out of their own end of the ice....One where they actually attempt something different as opposed to looking for a long pass, or dump and chase.....One where the forwards and defense arent so far apart on the ice.....One where it looks like the team is actually organized on the ice and not playing pond hockey

You do realize we are one of the worst even strength teams in the league, right? Without our special teams (handled by other coaches) this team is average.

A team with a defense of Timonen, Parent, Coburn, Carle, Jones, while probably not the best defensively should have absolutely no troubles skating the puck out of their zone and up the ice and that is possibly the worst thing this team does.

Its rather simple....


Oh and the answer to the original post is YES....I cant wait.

Changing coaches seemed to work pretty well for Pittsburgh, huh???

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06-13-2009, 11:18 PM
  #53
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Pittsburgh also got two wingers around the same time...fwiw.

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06-14-2009, 09:05 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Agent Orange View Post
The point is, if the Penguins didn't find a new coach, they probably would have missed the playoffs.
If that's true, then it should be easy to describe what the new coach did to turn things around.

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06-14-2009, 09:47 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
If that's true, then it should be easy to describe what the new coach did to turn things around.
It doesnt have to even be something specific, thats the thing....Just having a different voice in the locker room can be enough sometimes! As everyone argued with Hitch, sometimes the players just tune you out.

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06-14-2009, 09:47 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Pittsburgh also got two wingers around the same time...fwiw.
They did...and that was just as important, agreed.

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06-14-2009, 09:57 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
If that's true, then it should be easy to describe what the new coach did to turn things around.
Therrien was a more defensive coach

edit: here I did some research for you: But knowing your posting habits you won't ever post in this thread again to avoid admitting you were wrong

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=610612

Quote:
The big difference in our coaching change was style of play/theory. We played a passive 1-2-2 (MT's system), which actually looks like how Philly played us in the postseason. It doesn't work in the new NHL. You have to apply pressure and that's what DB brought to our team. We changed to a 2-3 (DB's system) and focused on pressuring the opposition rather than letting them come to us. Playing that style of hockey also improved our puck possession, shot production, offensive output, team defense, & more. We literally went from having a period where we literally shot 2-3 times against bad teams to averaging over 30 shots a game w/ Bylsma.

He instituted a full-ice team game and everyone bought into it. Our defense were allowed to pinch in and keep the puck alive as well as joining the rush. Our offense knew their responsibility was to "back track" to the defensive zone to prevent odd man rushes. It helped our team big time and the new style of play is one of the main reasons we even made it to the playoffs in the first place.
Quote:
Here we go:

Theory: The simple debate when it comes to hockey strategizing & theory is whether TO pressure or NOT to pressure. To Bylsma, there is absolutely no debate... the Penguins WILL apply pressure. What does that mean? It means that in every aspect of the game: defense, offense, neutral zone, PK, PP, transition.. we will try to apply pressure to the opposition. I'll break down each zone later but the entire basis of this strategy is simply too create by force rather than counter what the opposition is doing.


Offense: Do not mistake this up-tempo offense for the run & gun!!! Bylsma wants the team to move north & south rather than east & west. Our main goal is to attack. We want shots to the net & people driving to get secondary chances. We want to dictate tempo. In transition, you'll see a lot of center drives and quick shots to the net. When we are set up, Bylsma REALLY wants to focus on puck possession. Just because we are applying pressure doesn't mean to quickly get rid of the puck. It's all based on movement. If we have movement in the zone, our players will control the puck & inevitably the goal is to get a clean shot to the net w/ at least one player crashing hard.

We will also work as a unit. Our defense will have more responsibility by pinching in for puck possession and our offense will have more responsibility to "back track" (as DB likes to call it) to cover any quick transitions. We work as a 5 man unit both offensively & defensively. Hopefully the best the opposition can do is dump it behind our d-man who pinches while our "back tracking" forward picks up the puck and regroups. If we play the system correctly.. there is no risk because as a 5 man unit.. there will ALWAYS be support.


Defense: Just like our offense, our defense will also be a 5 man unit. We will not sit back and let the opposition set up in our zone. We will control our gap in the neutral zone by stepping up early while our forwards back-check. That'll create the opposing team to dump the puck in where our defensive unit will attack while using great d-side positioning to cut off any quick passes. We will attack the corners hard & not let the opposiing offense have ANY space to work with. From game film I noticed 3 on 3 man coverage & I saw a lot of collapsing from our high forwards which tells me that we don't want any opposing player to control the puck in our zone. We want them to cough it up so we can transition and apply more pressure.

It's JUST as important to pressure in our defensive zone as it is in the offensive zone. We want to dictate tempo and create chances off any turnovers. That starts in the defensive zone.

Forecheck/Neutral Zone: This part of the game is actually situational. If we are deep in the offensive zone we play a simple 2-3. The 2-3 means 2 players fighting for the puck while 1 offensive player stays high slot for either rotation, or a one-timer. That high forward also has the responsability to cover for a pinching d-man. Once again we play a high-tempo pressure system so our defense has the ability to pinch in for puck possession. This forecheck complements our strategy PERFECTLY. The main aspect of the 2-3 is communication. All 5 players have to know what each other are doing to work effectively.

If the opposition has time to set up a break out, our 2-3 forecheck backs up and runs the same type of attack but just higher (right as they enter the neutral zone). It's the smart thing to do because it'd be ridiculous to send 2 players in after 1 d-man who has protection behind his own net. The players have to react to every situation as a unit.

Transition: Simple... we will play fast north/south transition hockey and try to capitilize on any turnover. If we are regrouping, we are going to take on the same identity by attacking.

PK: We will still play the box but we will attack any chance we can. Behind the net and along the boards. That'll cut off space because in today's NHL.. 90% of the players can make a crisp direct pass if given space. We will pressure to take away that open space, which inevitably should lead to a rushed pass. That should give us a better chance to clear the puck or react as they regroup their power play.


Final Thought: Each and every aspect of the game complements one another, which is a VERY good start. Bylsma is very intelligent when it comes to disecting each and every aspect of the game. The one thing that separates a good coach from a great coach is how they react to in-game adjustments. How will he react to what the opposing coach is doing & what suttle changes will he counter with? It's the game within the game. Also, the other aspect of coaching is getting the players to believe in you and your system & getting them to execute. That'll be the challenge Bylsma has to face in order to become a solid NHL coach or end up back in the AHL. We shall see with these next 20 games or so.


Last edited by HoverCarle*: 06-14-2009 at 11:00 AM.
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Old
06-14-2009, 06:54 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
If that's true, then it should be easy to describe what the new coach did to turn things around.
I don't mean to come in here and stir the pot but if you need a million examples.. I can easily give them to you. Feel free to ask and I could even possibly show clips on the things that have changed.

One thing I hope the Flyers do (as a Pens fan) is keep John Stevens. The system you guys run does not complement your team at all. You guys are young, fast, and explosive on offense w/ enough talent on defense to chip in as well. Why run a passive defensive 1-2-2 when you could be playing anything from an offensive 2-3, a more updated 1-2-2 that attacks rather than sits back, or even run a variation of what Detroit does w/ a combination of a 2-3 AND a 1-2-2 depending on what situation happens? That's why you guys lose the neutral zone battle and was a key factor in our series this year.

If the Flyers work on a new system that more suits their playing style... that could very much be the thing that pushes them over the top. Depth/style of play is the biggest reason NHL teams are successful. You can't win on individual talent anymore. You have to play as a team both offensively and defensively.

If you want to watch a team that plays that style perfect... watch film on the Detroit Red Wings. It's tremendous on just how well they play. I wrote a breakdown on what to expect from Detroit that you can read then re-watch some of their games to see just how well they execute the plan. http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=19719425&postcount=1

The Flyers will be successful due to how much talent they have but the next level has to come from the system/theory/style of play.

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Old
06-14-2009, 11:19 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I don't mean to come in here and stir the pot but if you need a million examples.. I can easily give them to you. Feel free to ask and I could even possibly show clips on the things that have changed.
That would be cool.

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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
The system you guys run does not complement your team at all. You guys are young, fast, and explosive on offense w/ enough talent on defense to chip in as well. Why run a passive defensive 1-2-2 when you could be playing anything from an offensive 2-3, a more updated 1-2-2 that attacks rather than sits back
That's weird. Most Flyer fans think "our" "system" is too aggressive and needs to be more "defensive".

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06-14-2009, 11:25 PM
  #60
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Well, any time opposing fans love your coach and want him to stay, I guess that's a good sign, right?

Right?

Oh, hold on a minute...

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Old
06-15-2009, 12:54 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
That's weird. Most Flyer fans think "our" "system" is too aggressive and needs to be more "defensive".
our "system," if you want to call it that, is aggressive in the sense that it is offensively oriented and relies mostly on counterattacks and rushes. puck possession doesn't really seem to be a priority, nor does putting ourselves in a good position to get back/disrupt the opposition when, say, they get a turnover. the flyers could choose to be more aggressive in the offensive zone and pressure the opposition's defense more.

here's where i see our biggest problem. the flyers, as we know, like to use dump and chase a lot. how many times this year did we see a player skate to the redline, dump it in, then peel off with everyone else for a change? one guy might apply a passive forecheck, but 8-9 out of 10 times, the other team's dman went back and retrieved that puck, carried it out, and started a breakout. giving them the blueline/redline is a horrible, horrible mistake and a lapse in coaching judgment

how many times did that happen in the detroit/pittsburgh series? the answer is rarely. pittsburgh won in part because they realized that if they gave detroit's dmen time to set up, they would be toast. the penguins forwards got in there, hit them, and forced turnovers. crucial goals in both games 6 and 7 were the results of pressured dmen giving the puck up. the red wings usually do the same thing, but most of the time, they don't even dump it in

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06-15-2009, 07:54 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post

here's where i see our biggest problem. the flyers, as we know, like to use dump and chase a lot. how many times this year did we see a player skate to the redline, dump it in, then peel off with everyone else for a change?
that usually happens when you switch off,its a 50% chance you'll see that on a shift change. OR youll see them prepare a breakout behind their own net.

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06-15-2009, 07:59 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
If that's true, then it should be easy to describe what the new coach did to turn things around.
It's simple, get an all-star Dman back from long-term injury. Sergei Gonchar's return had a lot to do with the Pens' resurgence after a slow start.

Bylsma was a very average NHL player identified by the organization as a potential coach who went to the AHL to learn coaching and then got promoted.

Sound familiar?

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06-15-2009, 08:37 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
It's simple, get an all-star Dman back from long-term injury. Sergei Gonchar's return had a lot to do with the Pens' resurgence after a slow start.

Bylsma was a very average NHL player identified by the organization as a potential coach who went to the AHL to learn coaching and then got promoted.

Sound familiar?


It does indeed sound quote familiar.

And Gonchar, it appears, is to the Pens what Timonen is to the Flyers.

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06-15-2009, 08:41 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
the flyers could choose to be more aggressive in the offensive zone and pressure the opposition's defense more.
I guess that could be.

I was just remarking that most people here call the Flyers style of play "pond hockey". Then along comes this fella from the Pens board saying "Your coach should have your players play more wide open".

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06-15-2009, 11:31 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I guess that could be.

I was just remarking that most people here call the Flyers style of play "pond hockey". Then along comes this fella from the Pens board saying "Your coach should have your players play more wide open".
The Flyers play a very spread out system, trying to beat the trap with long passes, vs. working it up ice with short passes a la the Wings.
The Hawks play a similar style.

I love it when the 'pond hockey' accusations pop up too, like the Flyers have no breakout, coverage or forecheck systems at all. If it's true, it would mean we MUST have the best talent in the league to be able to play pond hockey and get 99 points one year, make the ECF the previous year, and compete well with the SCCs this year....

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06-15-2009, 11:46 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
The Flyers play a very spread out system, trying to beat the trap with long passes, vs. working it up ice with short passes a la the Wings.
The Hawks play a similar style.

I love it when the 'pond hockey' accusations pop up too, like the Flyers have no breakout, coverage or forecheck systems at all. If it's true, it would mean we MUST have the best talent in the league to be able to play pond hockey and get 99 points one year, make the ECF the previous year, and compete well with the SCCs this year....
OR...it could be hyperbole.

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06-15-2009, 02:55 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
I love it when the 'pond hockey' accusations pop up too, like the Flyers have no breakout, coverage or forecheck systems at all. If it's true, it would mean we MUST have the best talent in the league to be able to play pond hockey and get 99 points one year, make the ECF the previous year, and compete well with the SCCs this year....
I think you have read the situation well. There are people here who think the Flyers' defense was as talented as any in the Conference, and the Flyers groups of forwards among the most talented in hockey. Not coincidentally, these same people are the ones who always whine about "system", or lack thereof. They don't know what a system is, they just know Stevens ain't got one.

When you are young and you fall in love with players, it is difficult to see their shortcomings. So many succumb to that here.

That's life, I guess.

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06-15-2009, 05:36 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I think you have read the situation well. There are people here who think the Flyers' defense was as talented as any in the Conference, and the Flyers groups of forwards among the most talented in hockey. Not coincidentally, these same people are the ones who always whine about "system", or lack thereof. They don't know what a system is, they just know Stevens ain't got one.

When you are young and you fall in love with players, it is difficult to see their shortcomings. So many succumb to that here.

That's life, I guess.
Funny, most of what I read here is that we need a better system to overcome the shortcomings of our players.

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06-15-2009, 05:48 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post
I guess that could be.

I was just remarking that most people here call the Flyers style of play "pond hockey". Then along comes this fella from the Pens board saying "Your coach should have your players play more wide open".
Well first of all, thats not what he said.

Second, the assertion that we play a defensive style is false. You can get that impression because our forechecking is just abysmal, so it doesn't appear that we apply much pressure in the offensive zone, which is true. This is probably why we never have puck posession because we fling the puck down the ice and hand it over to the opposition on the regular.

The Flyers "system" is offensive in nature but not with emphasis on the forecheck and puck posession, instead its about the stretch pass and developing odd man rushes. The Flyers have tremendous finishing ability and we score tons of our goals off the rush and off the power play, where our players can use their offensive talent to score. You don't often see the Flyers score from out working the opposition down low and working through checking through puck posession within the offensive zone. That's where the pond hockey comments come from. It's a total north/south game, and its good against teams who play similarly with less skills than our roster, or against teams who don't check partiularly well. It fails miserably against a team that knows how to check in the neutral zone and plays safe with the puck

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06-15-2009, 06:06 PM
  #71
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i know i support the firing of stevens, he's like the andy reid of hockey

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06-15-2009, 08:15 PM
  #72
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i know i support the firing of stevens, he's like the andy reid of hockey
Andy Reid at least got the Eagles to a super bowl. And has been in 5 Conference Championships in 8 years. Not that Stevens has had that long but if he was like Andy Reid i wouldnt be all that angry. But hopefully he's long gone

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06-17-2009, 12:10 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
Well first of all, thats not what he said.

Second, the assertion that we play a defensive style is false. You can get that impression because our forechecking is just abysmal, so it doesn't appear that we apply much pressure in the offensive zone, which is true. This is probably why we never have puck posession because we fling the puck down the ice and hand it over to the opposition on the regular.

The Flyers "system" is offensive in nature but not with emphasis on the forecheck and puck posession, instead its about the stretch pass and developing odd man rushes. The Flyers have tremendous finishing ability and we score tons of our goals off the rush and off the power play, where our players can use their offensive talent to score. You don't often see the Flyers score from out working the opposition down low and working through checking through puck posession within the offensive zone. That's where the pond hockey comments come from. It's a total north/south game, and its good against teams who play similarly with less skills than our roster, or against teams who don't check partiularly well. It fails miserably against a team that knows how to check in the neutral zone and plays safe with the puck
Great analysis on the neutral zone. The Penguins, under MT, were a counter punch team as well and that was the theory of hockey our fan base despised. You can't let the game come to you anymore. Teams are too good and they'll make you pay.

Nobody will ever dispute the Flyers offensive talent. I just think they could play a more well-rounded team game in both zones that would make them even more dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JXC View Post

I was just remarking that most people here call the Flyers style of play "pond hockey". Then along comes this fella from the Pens board saying "Your coach should have your players play more wide open".
There is a prodigious difference between wide open game and what I was speaking about. The new NHL is built on team defense/team offense. You have to be aggressive but at the same time have your teammates covering your butt. Take time and read the system breakdown of Dan Bylsma. Idiotic Pittsburgh media called it the "Run/Gun Offense" at first because they had no idea what it was about. Little did they know it actually improved out defense as well because all 5 guys were focusing on "back tracking" (as DB calls it) and making sure "pressure" is applied at both ends. That actually helped us defeat the Wings by completely turning the tables from last year. We aggressively attacked, but at the same time supported one another both offensively/defensively. To reiterate, when I speak about playing aggressive, that doesn't just mean in the offensive zone.

The one thing I would change immediately about the Flyers is the passive neutral zone/defensive zone. They have unbelievable talent that could also be used in aggressively attacking from that defensive side of the ice. Counter punching gets you in trouble, especially in the playoffs, because you are reacting instead of initiating. With the talent you have on the Flyers roster... why in the world would you play like that? I know for a fact as soon as we matched up against the Flyers, we didn't like the depth you guys had on your team. What if you rolled all 3-4 lines out and took the game to the opposition instead of waiting to counter? That puts a pseudo-pressure to your opponent and causes them to make uncharacteristic mistakes.

I apologize for the late response. I haven't had a lot of time to check the boards as of late.

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06-17-2009, 05:04 PM
  #74
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interesting quotes from homer regarding our 'system'

http://csnphilly.com/pages/landing_0...252&feedID=704

Quote:
Holmgren said he told coach John Stevens to come up with a new offensive scheme that is going to test the Flyers’ energy level.

“I want us to be more aggressive,” Holmgren said he told Stevens. “I talked to John right after the season … The next time we met, I wanted him to come back and show me how we’re going be more aggressive.

“I think we’re on the same page in that regard. I would assume our team next year will be more of a hunt-the-puck team than we were this year. We’re not a passive team, but that is the game now.

“You hunt the puck in all zones, whether on the forecheck or coming back. The way you backtrack through the neutral zone. Pressure the puck on all sides. I think we’re a better skating team than people give us credit for and we need to take advantage of that.”

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