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Old
06-12-2009, 10:49 AM
  #26
Hollywood
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Trade Quick during the year to address a team need. Bernier and Ersberg split the time. We have enough goaltending prospects.
Bernier was and is supposed to be the Number 1. This is the year

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06-12-2009, 11:05 AM
  #27
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Quick's compete level and athleticism are going to make it tough on Bernier or anyone else to unseat him...

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06-12-2009, 11:25 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
Trade Quick during the year to address a team need. Bernier and Ersberg split the time. We have enough goaltending prospects.
Bernier was and is supposed to be the Number 1. This is the year
??? This makes no sense at all.

Quick is already addressing a big team need.

The good thing is, we don't have to trade a thing to get him.

He is a young and competitive NHL goaltender who appears to have all the essential physical and mental tools to be a long term #1 at the highest level.

To trade him prematurely would give me flashbacks to a team the Kings should want never again to be, punked and abused in the player-personnel department by all the rest of the league, the chumps of the NHL.

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06-12-2009, 12:24 PM
  #29
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I think Quick deserves a chance to be the starter, but I'm also leery of what comes with being a sophomore in the NHL. He'll still have some tough times next season.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
Trade Quick during the year to address a team need. Bernier and Ersberg split the time. We have enough goaltending prospects.
Bernier was and is supposed to be the Number 1. This is the year
You never have enough goaltending prospects.

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06-12-2009, 12:30 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Gorings Helmet View Post
Quick's compete level and athleticism are going to make it tough on Bernier or anyone else to unseat him...
From your lips to God's ears.

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06-12-2009, 12:48 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Willard View Post
??? This makes no sense at all.

Quick is already addressing a big team need.

The good thing is, we don't have to trade a thing to get him.

He is a young and competitive NHL goaltender who appears to have all the essential physical and mental tools to be a long term #1 at the highest level.

To trade him prematurely would give me flashbacks to a team the Kings should want never again to be, punked and abused in the player-personnel department by all the rest of the league, the chumps of the NHL.
The idea is we don't need him! We have Bernier and Ersberg that will do perhaps an even better job than Quick Ersberg. So trading him will allow us to address a forward issue. Perhaps include him in a package deal and no loss will be felt in net.
I guess you just think he is better than I think he is. Hence my thoghts are contrary to yours. I think holding Bernier and Quick is counter productive as Ersberg can do a good enough job in the back up spot. We'll see I guess

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06-12-2009, 12:55 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
Trade Quick during the year to address a team need. Bernier and Ersberg split the time. We have enough goaltending prospects.
Bernier was and is supposed to be the Number 1. This is the year

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06-12-2009, 01:01 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
The idea is we don't need him! We have Bernier and Ersberg that will do perhaps an even better job than Quick Ersberg. So trading him will allow us to address a forward issue. Perhaps include him in a package deal and no loss will be felt in net.
I guess you just think he is better than I think he is. Hence my thoghts are contrary to yours. I think holding Bernier and Quick is counter productive as Ersberg can do a good enough job in the back up spot. We'll see I guess
At this point you are putting way too much confidence in Bernier.

If and when Bernier proves he can handle playing at the NHL level then Dean can address the goaltending situation. Bernier still has a way to go to prove he canm handle the AHL....let alone the NHL.

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06-12-2009, 01:07 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
The idea is we don't need him! We have Bernier and Ersberg that will do perhaps an even better job than Quick Ersberg. So trading him will allow us to address a forward issue. Perhaps include him in a package deal and no loss will be felt in net.
I guess you just think he is better than I think he is. Hence my thoghts are contrary to yours. I think holding Bernier and Quick is counter productive as Ersberg can do a good enough job in the back up spot. We'll see I guess
I'm a huge Bernier fan (as you can see in my name) and even I think this is insane. Why trade the person that has shown the most progress? You take a step backward. Why don't we wait until they are both quality #1s (if it happens to any of our prospects) and then decide to ship one out and get full value. Right now, they aren't worth much until they've proven they can play well for a full season or two in the NHL.

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06-14-2009, 12:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
I think some people are too obsessed about Bernier's draft position.

Would you give Bernier the inside edge on someone like Henrik Lundqvist just because Lundqvist was a 7th round pick and Bernier was a 1st round pick?
Ha - I know I still am! I said then (and I sometime still say) DL should have drafted DEFENSE with that #11 pick. We had just come off of the 2nd half of the season playing some of the worst defense imagineable (but I won't belabor the point...), and DL picked a goalie??

I'm in love with the idea of a "#11 pick that comes in and lights it up and becomes the 'franchise' goalie that we all expect some day in 40 years [ignoring the Jamie Storr experiment]" but if DL had picked some D in that draft, we'd have another D asset, and still have Quick and Ersberg.

I'd like to say trade Bernier (for some much needed scoring), but I'd also be afraid if DL moves him he'll become Broduer somewhere else.

This is an odd L.A. goalie situation to say the least.

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06-14-2009, 01:57 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Bernier still wins in the potential department, but as far as both goaltenders go right now, Quick is likely ahead. Dean Lombardi said at the beginning that he was going to make Bernier spend 2 years in the minors and I am sure he still aims to do that. Quick would have to trip and fall under a bus and Bernier would have to play like the next coming of Brodeur for them to switch places this season.

So, in the end, Bernier has the edge in talent and the spotlight -- it is what he does with it that matters most... Quick, however, has a good advantage after having a solid season under his belt and more NHL experience, but we all know what happened to Ersberg last year versus LaBarbera under Murray...
Being a guy that has always had very high hopes for Quick, I think that his potential gets overlooked especially when he is compared to Bernier.

I'm not a scout but I loved the selection of him back in the 3rd round when I took a look at his HS stats. Now, I wasn't about to throw a party but his HS numbers clearly showed a kid on an entirely different level.

He goes to UMASS-AM and puts up fantastic numbers. Always made me wonder why he wasn't even invited to a US Junior team camp but oh well. He then had a real good first pro year, putting up real good numbers in the ECHL and AHL while scraping out a win up in LA.

Now, he got shellacked for the most part here in LA but that team was awful and he wasn't ready yet: much like Bernier wasn't. What Quick did though in those few games was make some very electric saves, including stoning Havlat on a breakaway in Chicago (one of many big saves in that game that the Kings still got blown out in) and that play of the night nominee glove save in his home win over Buffalo.

Just like Bernier, he won one game and then got blown out in a few while making some eye-catching saves.

Fast forward to this season and you see Quick step in and effectively put a stranglehold on the #1 job for the remainder of the season.

With Bernier, you have all of the hype from Lewiston's run to the Memorial Cup thrown together with the fact that he was drafted in the 1st round. Then he wins his first game in London and he's annointed the Saviour. Since that point, the Saviour was sent to Juniors and sulked and then blew his starting spot as Canada's #1 goalie in the WJC. Bernier had more potential than Mason at that time but look at what has happened since.

Then you have his first full pro season where he is a whipping boy amongst the Manchester faithful for a large part of the season. He pulled the numbers together in the end but I don't think his amateur/pro career matches up as well with Quick, especially considering that UMASS-AM was terrible and he threw up great numbers playing against top competition. I mean, his first year with them he went 4-10 but had a SAV% of 92 and a GAA of 2.98. He took over the starting spot the next season and had a record of 19-12-5 with a GAA od 2.19.

There have been no sulking issues with Quick, no GM visits to buck him up. He's a competitor who has been successful at every level and now has the full confidence of a team full of young guys like him. Bernier is going to have to absolutely kill it in TC because you know that Quick is going to play great.

I wasn't a huge fan of the Bernier pick at the time as I wanted Little beause he seemed exactly like what this team needed. It's now obvious that the staff didn't exactly know what they had in Quick so they hedged their bets because they "needed" to develop a true #1 goalie. Don't get me wrong...Bernier still has a lot of potential but I don't think he has as much as Quick. I've always felt that Quick gets drafted higher if he's coming out of the CHL and not high school.

As for that 2006 draft....LA reached for Bernier at 11 and passed up the better pick in Bryan Little who was taken immediately afterwards. Little would now be this teams 2nd line center. Then they reached with the Lewis pick only to have Chris Stewart selected with the next pick and Claude Giroux 5 picks later.

No wonder DL defers this draft over to Al Murray and, when comparing these selections to "DL's", I'm pretty inclined to believe him.

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06-14-2009, 03:27 PM
  #37
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Just wanted to say I agree with a lot of what you wrote above. At the same time have seen it posted numerous times but B. Little doesn't play center rather wing at the NHL level. Also this is not because ATL is stacked at centers or something, T. White was their top center for god sakes.

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06-14-2009, 03:36 PM
  #38
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I will never argue the choice of Bernier. Here's why;

-The teams BIGGEST need, at the time of the 2006 draft, was solid goaltending prospects in the pipeline.
-Bernier was the best choice, imo, and remains so. Better than Irving, better than Varlamov, Bernier's upside is higher than both. This is strictly an opinion.
-Bernier gives Dean a HUGE chip to play in any trades. He is still perceived as one of the top NHL goaltending prospects in the world. There are few teams that would pass the opportunity to have a J.Bernier in their pipeline
-Quick. He is going to push Quick to be better and work harder for the duration. As long as Bernier is looming, it's going to push the buttons of Quick's best attributes; fire, determination, compete level, etc.


There is absolutely nothing negative about having both in our system, now, and for another 12-18 months. Some tough decisions will have to be made in the future, but as it is right now, Kings are sitting in a very, very enviable position for franchises trying to rise from mediocrity.

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06-14-2009, 04:04 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBernierFan View Post
I'm a huge Bernier fan (as you can see in my name) and even I think this is insane. Why trade the person that has shown the most progress? You take a step backward. Why don't we wait until they are both quality #1s (if it happens to any of our prospects) and then decide to ship one out and get full value. Right now, they aren't worth much until they've proven they can play well for a full season or two in the NHL.
Good post. If they both continue to develop as projected the value of each one grows as more time goes by.

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06-14-2009, 04:19 PM
  #40
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I will never argue the choice of Bernier. Here's why;

-The teams BIGGEST need, at the time of the 2006 draft, was solid goaltending prospects in the pipeline.
-Bernier was the best choice, imo, and remains so. Better than Irving, better than Varlamov, Bernier's upside is higher than both. This is strictly an opinion.
-Bernier gives Dean a HUGE chip to play in any trades. He is still perceived as one of the top NHL goaltending prospects in the world. There are few teams that would pass the opportunity to have a J.Bernier in their pipeline
-Quick. He is going to push Quick to be better and work harder for the duration. As long as Bernier is looming, it's going to push the buttons of Quick's best attributes; fire, determination, compete level, etc.


There is absolutely nothing negative about having both in our system, now, and for another 12-18 months. Some tough decisions will have to be made in the future, but as it is right now, Kings are sitting in a very, very enviable position for franchises trying to rise from mediocrity.
What he said ^ Yeah we could have gotten Little but look at it this way in the event we trade off Quick or Bernier and they are proven commodities we'll get a lot more than a Little in return...

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06-14-2009, 04:45 PM
  #41
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What he said ^ Yeah we could have gotten Little but look at it this way in the event we trade off Quick or Bernier and they are proven commodities we'll get a lot more than a Little in return...
I agree with a lot of what VR is saying but it will obviously take time to fully gauge if it was the right pick, i.e. Bernier's development, what he could garner in a possible trade etc..

As for the other things, like pushing Quick, that isn't really measurable and could be argued either way. The argument that a goalie is what the Kings needed the most in 2006 is true, but taking him at #11 is not a case of taking the BPA and I feel they reached with both 1st round picks. It is true he was a better choice than Irving or Varlamov but it would have bee insane to take them at #11. All I can say is thank goodness they didn't take Helenius like TB did at #15.

It's obviosuly not terrible walking out of that draft with Bernier, but walking away with Little and Giroux would have been pretty nice in hindsight. I guess they figured picking up O'Sullivan was akin to drafting one of those two but more NHL-ready.

As for your play on words regarding Bernier's value in a trade: He wouldn't snag Little straight up at this point. I feel he's like Johnson in he'd have to be part of a package because Bernier will have more value to the Kings than what he could bring back in a straight swap.

If Little isn't playing center then he is another 30 goals on the wing that this team needs. I'm not saying it's a gigantic mistake and time may prove that it is not a mistake; I was high on Little at the draft and I still think he's a very good player.


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06-14-2009, 07:15 PM
  #42
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I dunno, I still give the edge to Bernier. If someone were to walk up to me today and tell me that I have to make a choice no matter what, then I would keep Bernier. I like both goaltenders a lot, but I prefer technically sound goaltenders over acrobatic goaltenders. I like how Bernier is in position and has a solid game. Quick also has a solid game, but he relies more on his athleticism and that scares me.

We don't have a very good test model to compare them in, other than the Manchester numbers, which isn't much to go on, but I still think Bernier's threshold is higher than Quick's, though it is important to note that Quick is no slouch and is still developing himself. In the end, Bernier is 3 years younger and has all the tools to succeed and the room to do it. Quick has the job, and it is rightfully his to lose, but I don't see him keeping it from Bernier indefinitely. I think Bernier is still DL's guy in the end.

As far as trades go, both are untouchable until one establishes themselves as the franchise starter, then the other is obviously tradebait.

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06-14-2009, 07:31 PM
  #43
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Now I know with Telos to always offer two birds in the bush before the one in the hand.

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06-14-2009, 08:02 PM
  #44
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Quote:
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Now I know with Telos to always offer two birds in the bush before the one in the hand.
I can't help it, I like potential. Bernier is 3 years younger, and both goaltenders are arguably on par with each other. I don't think there is a vast difference between their current abilities, so I would look at potential first right now.

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06-14-2009, 10:38 PM
  #45
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I will never argue the choice of Bernier. Here's why;

-The teams BIGGEST need, at the time of the 2006 draft, was solid goaltending prospects in the pipeline.
-Bernier was the best choice, imo, and remains so. Better than Irving, better than Varlamov, Bernier's upside is higher than both. This is strictly an opinion.
What about better than Steve Mason? He was selected in the 3rd round with the 69th overall pick....and not only is he the leading candidate for the Calder Trophy but he is a nominee for the Vezina.

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06-14-2009, 10:42 PM
  #46
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It's actually only 2 years and 7 months

That can be argued away though by the fact that Bernier was playing 23 games in Lewiston in 2004-05 while Quick was playing high-school kids. Also, Bernier played 54 (!) games for Lewiston in 2005-06 while Quick only played in 17 games in college.

The argument can be made that Bernier has had more development time even though Quick is older, especially before factoring in this past season and Quick's 44 games at the NHL level. Therefore, one could say that Bernier is more "technically sound" since he's had the coaching and game experience while Quick is actually the more talented one, thus having more potential.

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06-14-2009, 10:50 PM
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It's actually only 2 years and 7 months

That can be argued away though by the fact that Bernier was playing 23 games in Lewiston in 2004-05 while Quick was playing high-school kids. Also, Bernier played 54 (!) games for Lewiston in 2005-06 while Quick only played in 17 games in college.

The argument can be made that Bernier has had more development time even though Quick is older, especially before factoring in this past season and Quick's 44 games at the NHL level. Therefore, one could say that Bernier is more "technically sound" since he's had the coaching and game experience while Quick is actually the more talented one, thus having more potential.
I am not sure if you read my previous post....but Steve Mason was drafted the same year as Bernier (only in the 3rd round) and if it wasn't for the fact that he actually proved to be better on the ice people here would say that Bernier was better based solely on the fact that Bernier was selected #11 while Mason was #69.

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06-14-2009, 11:02 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKing View Post
It's actually only 2 years and 7 months

That can be argued away though by the fact that Bernier was playing 23 games in Lewiston in 2004-05 while Quick was playing high-school kids. Also, Bernier played 54 (!) games for Lewiston in 2005-06 while Quick only played in 17 games in college.

The argument can be made that Bernier has had more development time even though Quick is older, especially before factoring in this past season and Quick's 44 games at the NHL level. Therefore, one could say that Bernier is more "technically sound" since he's had the coaching and game experience while Quick is actually the more talented one, thus having more potential.
Meh, I rounded up, it is a habit. If Quick has all that upside, it was sure missed by the scouts, I think it is pretty well known around the league that Bernier is #1 in the potential depth chart, i dunno... Either way, Bernier is younger and their abilities are similar. I have to go with the one with more time for improvement and ability versus age. Bernier also has more contract time and restricted years. Either way, the main factor that is out of our hands is Lombardi's opinion. I think Bernier still has an edge in that department and that is what matters overall.

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06-14-2009, 11:56 PM
  #49
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Meh, I rounded up, it is a habit. If Quick has all that upside, it was sure missed by the scouts, I think it is pretty well known around the league that Bernier is #1 in the potential depth chart, i dunno... Either way, Bernier is younger and their abilities are similar. I have to go with the one with more time for improvement and ability versus age. Bernier also has more contract time and restricted years. Either way, the main factor that is out of our hands is Lombardi's opinion. I think Bernier still has an edge in that department and that is what matters overall.
I was only busting your balls on the age part man so no worries.

Scouts miss things all of the time, such as Captain Ron's example of Mason going in the 3rd round. In Quick's draft year there were 6 goalies taken before him; today I would say there are only two who you could take ahead of him: Price and Rask.

Also in Quick's draft year: Dany Roussin taken one spot before Mason Raymond and TJ Fast three spots ahead of Kris LeTang.

Gross.

I agree with you regarding Bernier being Lombardi's guy but you have to remember that DL says it wasn't his pick. I think he became his guy because they thought he was the only goalie prospect that had a future because they didn't know what they had with Quick. If I had to call one of them a "DL-type player" though, I'd go with Quick based on compete level and a lack of mental problems (I use that term lightly).

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06-15-2009, 01:04 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigKing View Post
I was only busting your balls on the age part man so no worries.

Scouts miss things all of the time, such as Captain Ron's example of Mason going in the 3rd round. In Quick's draft year there were 6 goalies taken before him; today I would say there are only two who you could take ahead of him: Price and Rask.

Also in Quick's draft year: Dany Roussin taken one spot before Mason Raymond and TJ Fast three spots ahead of Kris LeTang.

Gross.

I agree with you regarding Bernier being Lombardi's guy but you have to remember that DL says it wasn't his pick. I think he became his guy because they thought he was the only goalie prospect that had a future because they didn't know what they had with Quick. If I had to call one of them a "DL-type player" though, I'd go with Quick based on compete level and a lack of mental problems (I use that term lightly).
It's cool, I got it, I just get serious with numbers

I hear you about the draft positions, I just still think Bernier has the capability of becoming more. It goes back to my concern about Quick's athleticism. Bodies change and it is really hard to maintain that level over time. Sure many athletes have done it, but the odds aren't usually in their favor. I like Bernier's style because it holds up better over time in my opinion whereas Quick's is more enigmatic and varies with more hot and cold flashes.

I definitely don't disagree with you that Quick's attitude is probably better suited for DL's mold of player and probably held in higher regard, but I am sure DL still holds Bernier in high regard as well and still classifies Bernier's struggles with his youth and learning how to deal with it in the minors. Quick gets a little bonus for it, but I don't think it is weighted too heavily. In the end, all of this is speculation until we see Bernier behind the pipes for a stable period of time in the NHL level, but I still see him as having the best chance to become our #1 franchise goaltender out of all of our prospects regardless of draft position.

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