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Affordable wingers for Pittsburgh

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Old
06-14-2009, 01:52 AM
  #76
vecens24
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Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
Mats Sundin is not a decent center?

And like I said. It's not a positive that these guys scored lots of points on a bad team. It's a negative. They are played more than they deserve. They are part of a losing equation.
Forgot about him. Not a big Sundin fan but you are right and I am wrong. But Poni's goal totals those the last two seasons Sundin was there.... 21 goals in 70 games, 18 goals in 66 games. Playing a full 82 game slate with Malkin or Crosby, who are much better passers than Sundin, don't see how Poni doesn't score 30.

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06-14-2009, 02:01 AM
  #77
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By the way, Poni has gotten better every year, and while plus minus is a very overrated stat for the most part in my view, the guy somehow managed to go +6 on the Leafs. That is actually pretty damned good. Can score goals, play defense, and has size, which is somethign that will be desperately needed if Guerin retires.

Just throwing that trade out there, kinda thought that Pens fans wouldn't like it as it is kind of "unsexy" in a way, but I think the only way the Pens would trade Staal is for some depth and cap relief.

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06-14-2009, 02:01 AM
  #78
Bullet Tooth Tony
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Love Jordan Staal and don't want to see the Pens get rid of him by any means, but if they do they're goign to do it for cap relief and depth, not for top prospects or high draft picks or anything. That would be the only reaosn to get rid of him. And I agree with both other points, the Pens don't win the Cup without him and he is a 1 or 2 center on any other team.

But read my above post for what I think about Stajan and Ponikarovsky.
The way you go about posting would seem to suggest otherwise... "get rid of" and "if they do, they're going to do it for cap relief and depth, not top prospects". So in short, basically get rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him? I maintain that someone should have to blow Shero's socks off with an out of this world offer in order to get him... The Pens certainly aren't in cap hell by any means, though I'm sure flexibility would be nice... but there are other options to slash some salary...

But to address your other post, I actually think Stajan would be a decent third line center option *should* Staal be traded... he doesn't have the same level of physical play as Staal but he is a pretty solid, smart two-way player... However, I'm quite certain he should not be a centerpiece in a deal for Staal.

Poni actually has almost always played with an elite center... he earned his bread for a number of years playing with Sundin, and I believe he also spent some time with the venerable Joe Nieuwendyk way back when. I'd suggest he's an exhibit A coattail rider, though for the purposes of Pittsburgh, that certainly doesn't matter

I just think that the Pens should hold out for a better offer if they move Staal. I honestly think that a big, physical top six center with scoring ability and a very good defensive game like Staal could fetch a pretty damned good winger to play in your top six. To trade him just to trade him, well, it's bad management imho...


Last edited by Bullet Tooth Tony: 06-14-2009 at 02:04 AM. Reason: .
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06-14-2009, 02:06 AM
  #79
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If the past couple of years both regular season and especially in the playoffs when Staal completely shut down 50 goal scorers like Carter did not get through to some how important and valuable Staal is I have no clue what would. No way the Pens trade him because it would bring a huge hole to the team that could not be filled, and for what? A winger when we already are top five in the league in scoring? Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

The real answer is either from within the minors, or the best wing or two who will sign with the team for around $3 million or less. Guerin will be one of the players asked if he wants to take less to fill one of those roles. I suspect that he will have some competition from several players who want a good chance at a Cup and at the very least to pad their stats on Crosby or Malkin's wing and would play for a discount price for the honor.

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06-14-2009, 02:15 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Bullet Tooth Tony View Post
The way you go about posting would seem to suggest otherwise... "get rid of" and "if they do, they're going to do it for cap relief and depth, not top prospects". So in short, basically get rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him? I maintain that someone should have to blow Shero's socks off with an out of this world offer in order to get him... The Pens certainly aren't in cap hell by any means, though I'm sure flexibility would be nice... but there are other options to slash some salary...

But to address your other post, I actually think Stajan would be a decent third line center option *should* Staal be traded... he doesn't have the same level of physical play as Staal but he is a pretty solid, smart two-way player... However, I'm quite certain he should not be a centerpiece in a deal for Staal.

Poni actually has almost always played with an elite center... he earned his bread for a number of years playing with Sundin, and I believe he also spent some time with the venerable Joe Nieuwendyk way back when. I'd suggest he's an exhibit A coattail rider, though for the purposes of Pittsburgh, that certainly doesn't matter

I just think that the Pens should hold out for a better offer if they move Staal. I honestly think that a big, physical top six center with scoring ability and a very good defensive game like Staal could fetch a pretty damned good winger to play in your top six. To trade him just to trade him, well, it's bad management imho...
I don't consider Joe Nieuwendyk all that great a center at 35 years old. And along with that was never a great passer to begin with as (and correct me if I'm wrong) he may have reached 45 assists once in his career. But if Poni wants to ride the coattails of Malkin and Crosby thats fine, I just knwo that the guy can put home the puck, play pretty solid defense, add size to a somewhat small frontline, and he continually has gotten better throughout his career.

But I am actually not a fan of trading Staal despite my language used in other posts. Sorry for mixing that up, he along with Malkin are my two favorite Pen players. But if a trade were to happen for him I do think it would look somethign like this. And they wouldn't jsut be trading him to trade him in my view. If you don't think the Pens are goign to be in cap hell soon enough then youre a little misguided. They aren't now but easily could be. My best idea would be to trade Orpik but I don't think anyone would want a 3/4 defenseman (in my view, again that may get flamed by you guys but the guy continually gets out of position jsut to make a big hit) for the 4 million he makes.

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06-14-2009, 02:21 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I don't consider Joe Nieuwendyk all that great a center at 35 years old. And along with that was never a great passer to begin with as (and correct me if I'm wrong) he may have reached 45 assists once in his career. But if Poni wants to ride the coattails of Malkin and Crosby thats fine, I just knwo that the guy can put home the puck, play pretty solid defense, add size to a somewhat small frontline, and he continually has gotten better throughout his career.

But I am actually not a fan of trading Staal despite my language used in other posts. Sorry for mixing that up, he along with Malkin are my two favorite Pen players. But if a trade were to happen for him I do think it would look somethign like this. And they wouldn't jsut be trading him to trade him in my view. If you don't think the Pens are goign to be in cap hell soon enough then youre a little misguided. They aren't now but easily could be. My best idea would be to trade Orpik but I don't think anyone would want a 3/4 defenseman (in my view, again that may get flamed by you guys but the guy continually gets out of position jsut to make a big hit) for the 4 million he makes.
Ponikarosky may be big, but he doesn't use his size physically.

Considering Komisarek will probably make more than Orpik, people might be keen on Orpik.

Everyone knows I'd love for Staal on the habs, but I wouldn't mind Orpik either, if Komisarek goes and we get snubbed at free agency.

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06-14-2009, 02:22 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Bullet Tooth Tony View Post
The way you go about posting would seem to suggest otherwise... "get rid of" and "if they do, they're going to do it for cap relief and depth, not top prospects". So in short, basically get rid of him for the sake of getting rid of him? I maintain that someone should have to blow Shero's socks off with an out of this world offer in order to get him... The Pens certainly aren't in cap hell by any means, though I'm sure flexibility would be nice... but there are other options to slash some salary...

But to address your other post, I actually think Stajan would be a decent third line center option *should* Staal be traded... he doesn't have the same level of physical play as Staal but he is a pretty solid, smart two-way player... However, I'm quite certain he should not be a centerpiece in a deal for Staal.

Poni actually has almost always played with an elite center... he earned his bread for a number of years playing with Sundin, and I believe he also spent some time with the venerable Joe Nieuwendyk way back when. I'd suggest he's an exhibit A coattail rider, though for the purposes of Pittsburgh, that certainly doesn't matter

I just think that the Pens should hold out for a better offer if they move Staal. I honestly think that a big, physical top six center with scoring ability and a very good defensive game like Staal could fetch a pretty damned good winger to play in your top six. To trade him just to trade him, well, it's bad management imho...
There lies the problem.... Staal could easily get a top 6 high scoring winger.....but as vecens24 has realized; Pittsburgh needs to get cap relief. They currently have $9million to spend next year on $9players, which is not enough when you look at the holes they have. Out of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, Gonchar, Orpik & Fleury.... Staal is by far the most expendable. Moving anyone else doesn't provide cap relief as they all make less than $2million.

Ponikarovsky is definitely a coat-tail rider when it comes to offence. However, he is an extremely good 2-way winger on his own merits. Plus, he's good enough that he can contribute to a scoring line to help create lots of space for his linemates.

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06-14-2009, 02:28 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I don't consider Joe Nieuwendyk all that great a center at 35 years old. And along with that was never a great passer to begin with as (and correct me if I'm wrong) he may have reached 45 assists once in his career. But if Poni wants to ride the coattails of Malkin and Crosby thats fine, I just knwo that the guy can put home the puck, play pretty solid defense, add size to a somewhat small frontline, and he continually has gotten better throughout his career.

But I am actually not a fan of trading Staal despite my language used in other posts. Sorry for mixing that up, he along with Malkin are my two favorite Pen players. But if a trade were to happen for him I do think it would look somethign like this. And they wouldn't jsut be trading him to trade him in my view. If you don't think the Pens are goign to be in cap hell soon enough then youre a little misguided. They aren't now but easily could be. My best idea would be to trade Orpik but I don't think anyone would want a 3/4 defenseman (in my view, again that may get flamed by you guys but the guy continually gets out of position jsut to make a big hit) for the 4 million he makes.
Agree to disagree on the Poni business, I guess... can't deny he'd get his points, just wouldn't move Staal for him... that's like selling a donair for a turd sandwich...

Fair enough about Staal, it can be hard to tell on an online forum where you have only text to go on. As for cap hell, how many times has it really happened since the cap was implemented? (15 player Calgary is the only real example I can think of off hand). GMs continue to astonish with their creativity in getting around things... As long as Shero continues to finagle and maneuver, I really do think they'll be fine. Maybe they cost-cut in a few areas, but I don't think they move a core player like Staal.

I think Orpik makes a pretty penny for what he does and thus could be an option to pare salary, but he is a valuable player, and the Pens certainly would want to replace his physical play and just overall warm-body-ness should they move him, imo.

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06-14-2009, 02:35 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Ponikarosky may be big, but he doesn't use his size physically.

Considering Komisarek will probably make more than Orpik, people might be keen on Orpik.

Everyone knows I'd love for Staal on the habs, but I wouldn't mind Orpik either, if Komisarek goes and we get snubbed at free agency.
Not sure the Canadiens have anythign I'd want within reason, as there is no chance in hell you give up Markov or McDonagh for Orpik, and Subban not a defensive defenseman in the least bit whcih the Pens would need, and I wouldn't really want any of the Canadiens other defenseman. The Pens would still need someone to replace Orpik or just get a prospect so good they couldn't pass up, which makes the Canadiens not too great partners for the Pens.

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06-14-2009, 02:38 AM
  #85
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With the way the cap could be looking next summer, they most certainly have to get guys on one year deals.

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06-14-2009, 02:39 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Bullet Tooth Tony View Post
Agree to disagree on the Poni business, I guess... can't deny he'd get his points, just wouldn't move Staal for him... that's like selling a donair for a turd sandwich...

Fair enough about Staal, it can be hard to tell on an online forum where you have only text to go on. As for cap hell, how many times has it really happened since the cap was implemented? (15 player Calgary is the only real example I can think of off hand). GMs continue to astonish with their creativity in getting around things... As long as Shero continues to finagle and maneuver, I really do think they'll be fine. Maybe they cost-cut in a few areas, but I don't think they move a core player like Staal.

I think Orpik makes a pretty penny for what he does and thus could be an option to pare salary, but he is a valuable player, and the Pens certainly would want to replace his physical play and just overall warm-body-ness should they move him, imo.
How many core players do you think Pittsburgh can realistically keep? GMs find their way around the cap by identifying who isn't core and making trades involving them to make the cap work.

Orpik could definitely garner interest on the trade market; but then you need 2 top 4 defenceman instead of one.

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06-14-2009, 02:51 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
How many core players do you think Pittsburgh can realistically keep? GMs find their way around the cap by identifying who isn't core and making trades involving them to make the cap work.

Orpik could definitely garner interest on the trade market; but then you need 2 top 4 defenceman instead of one.
I don't know, I would think that they would try their utmost to keep all of them though... As for your second sentence, I'm guessing you consider Staal either not to be a core player or expendable, at least in the right circumstance. I'm suggesting that he is both a core player and quite indispensable, and moreover, that the Pens don't win the Cup without his very important contributions during the latter parts of that series. The only way I move him, like I said, is if you get a bona fide top six player for him...

As for Orpik, yes, it's a risky move to look into moving him but IMO it's easier to replace a manbeast kneecap masher than it is an elite physical shutdown center with plenty of offensive bite to his game.

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06-14-2009, 03:49 AM
  #88
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Expect to see another 1 year deal or two as a stopgap before Caputi and Tangradi are NHL ready.

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06-14-2009, 03:57 AM
  #89
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Someone that wouldn't cost you a lot to obtain and could turn out really well:

Marc-Antoine Pouliot from Edmonton

He and Crosby were linemates in Rimouski and had great chemistry. We picked him 22nd overall and he just has not been doing it for us.
what's Pouliot's potential? ie what numbers could he put up on Sid's wing

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06-14-2009, 04:05 AM
  #90
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Staal and your 1th draft pick for Vermette, Majorov and our 1th draft pick (16th).

Jordan is player for the first line and when we would get him we should better chance to sign with Rick Nash (it is very important for us). You would get one skill young winger who can play LW and RW (Majorov should trade in the first round but every knows why was not) + Antoine can play not only center but wing too. + we should a chance to get one very good player in the draft.

Or

Staal for Majorov and 1th draft pick + something.

around 16th place are these players

Something is according to your choise, maybe someone from Boll/Murray/Chimera/Tollefsen (of course if we would sign him he is RFA)/2th draft pick.

Or

Staal for someone from couple Voracek/Filatov.

Our the biggest problems are center and defensman.

What do you think? Correct me if I am wrong.


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06-14-2009, 04:20 AM
  #91
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I think Shero is going to get some pretty good offers for Staal because of his play in games 6 and 7. I can see a Jack Johnson+ for Staal.

I would love to see a Luke Schenn for Staal and a 2nd this would add grit, 3 million in cap, and would fill in for one of our 3 UFA defensemen.
You made me lulz

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Well for one Stajan isn't a top 6 forward he's a third line center, but one that could do so well on a contending team. He got 50 points this year without much on the wings so i think he would be a good enough replacement for Staal. Good two-way player as well. Stajan for 2 million dollars a year is just as good as having Staal for 4 mill in my mind.

Ponikarovsky hasnt really ever played with a decent centerman. The guy can defintiely finish so I'd be interested to see what he could do with either Crosby or Malkin. I think he ends up wiht a 30-30-60 like season on a wing with Malkin.
Poni>Fedotenko/Sykora/Talbot in my mind, the three guys playing wing with Malkin this playoffs for the most part.

A trade like this would be more for cap concerns than anything. It gives the Pens more depth and if Poni walks as a UFA then the Pens get some cap room to sign another winger. It's not the world's most perfect trade but I think it's one that could alleviate some of the difficulties the Pens are feeling with the cap and depth.
I'm iffy on Stajan. Not sure whether his surprise production this season can be expected to keep up. But scoring 55 points is hard to ignore and just say he ain't 2nd liner. He's only 25 and will likely not sign for much when his contract is done. He's still got more potential, not saying he'll get ya 70 points, but even if this season was an aberration he'd prolly still score 40-50 points.

Also, I'm a leaf fan, and Poni is not good at finishing. He does score 20+ goals, but he's horrible at finishing. Too many times have I seen him botch up a sure thing. But he is certainly a good player, and imo has improved every season since the lockout. He got 23 goals and 61 points, and if he played wing with sid or geno, I can def see a 30-30-60 or maybe even 70.

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06-14-2009, 05:17 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreaBargnani View Post
Holy **** pens fans underrate Jordan Staal.
Only the stupid ones.

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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
There lies the problem.... Staal could easily get a top 6 high scoring winger.....but as vecens24 has realized; Pittsburgh needs to get cap relief. They currently have $9million to spend next year on $9players, which is not enough when you look at the holes they have. Out of Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Kunitz, Gonchar, Orpik & Fleury.... Staal is by far the most expendable. Moving anyone else doesn't provide cap relief as they all make less than $2million.
Shero will find a way to accommodate Staal's salary, you can be sure of that. He's not going to deal a 20 year old go-to defensive forward who shuts down the likes of Jeff Carter and Eric Staal and already has the capability to make the Wings his ***** when the mood strikes.

That would be terrifyingly short-sighted.

He'll make minor moves to create cap space and keep Staal in the fold. Because that's what a GM is paid to do, and what most HFers are too dense to figure out.

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06-14-2009, 05:32 AM
  #93
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One not far fetched scenario I see is Fedotenko and Guerin signing for app. 5 million between them and Pesonen (our Ville Leino) getting a chance out of camp.
And yes, with the right decisions elsewhere (such as letting Dupuis go), we can swing that. Bill Guerin worked well for us, but he is also 38 years old and cannot expect to keep getting big money. He seems genuinely thrilled to play with the youngsters - and grateful for being brought to the big show again after 14 years.

That is of course if Shero doesn't get a call from someone he thinks better who (like Sykora was) is drawn to the idea of playing with one of the best two centers in the world to revitalize his career. Such a scenario for someone taking a one year deal would be great, because Tangradi should be ready for a spot in 2010/11. Perhaps Jesus Caputi too.

What isn't going to happen is Shero putting big money in a winger. We have proven that we can win without it, and Scuderi being an UFA we cannot afford to resign (most likely) is a bigger issue than the wing positions in my book.

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06-14-2009, 06:36 AM
  #94
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Some UFA's that might be of interest:

Chad LaRose
Mikael Samuelsson
Mike Knuble


Keeping in mind that the Pens probably won't be looking for $5 million guys, I could see any of these guys being extremely valuable although there will probably be pretty heavy competition for LaRose and Samuelsson, Knuble could possibly fit in well with Crosby. LaRose is the guy I would be after if I was the Pens GM.

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06-14-2009, 06:58 AM
  #95
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Theres just no way Penguins can substitute two or three top six wingers and one or two top four defencemen without changing the salary structure. Arent they already near the 47 million cap hit for the next season? That gives less than 2 million per player, when there are RFAs and depth players to be taken into account aswell.

This should be interesting to see what happens... are they making moves now or maybe later after having a case of "Lightning disease".

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06-14-2009, 07:50 AM
  #96
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Penguins are in a really tough spot because there isn't exactly a lot of talent which would be considered "expendable"; as Goligoski, Tangradi & Letang would be pretty close to untouchable and nobody else on the roster has significant trade value.

Plus, you're not going to get any decent UFAs to sign for the ~$1.25 per season that it will take to fit them under the cap. As is, the Penguins problably have to make a decision between Staal and Kunitz. My guess is that Staal ends up going on the block because he's more valuable, a higher cap hit, and the Pens just traded for Kunitz.

In terms of what they've gotta be looking for, my guess is that they've got about $3.5 to spend on 2 players in return.... left side is pretty good with Kunitz, Cooke, Tangradi, Dupuis. The penguins need 2 right wingers, one of which will problably come from free agency. So in the trade, they need one top 6 right winger and one top 4 2-way defenceman to offset the loss of Hal Gill & Rob Scuderi. Mark Eaton isn't good enough to jump up on a permanent basis, so the blueline for next year looks something like this:

Gonchar-Orpik
Letang-?
Eaton-Goligoski

If the Pens go the UFA route to fill the defensive gap, then you move Staal for a better right winger or get a draft pick in the deal.
Does this mean the return of the Staal/Horton rumors?

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06-14-2009, 07:51 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Only the stupid ones.



Shero will find a way to accommodate Staal's salary, you can be sure of that. He's not going to deal a 20 year old go-to defensive forward who shuts down the likes of Jeff Carter and Eric Staal and already has the capability to make the Wings his ***** when the mood strikes.

That would be terrifyingly short-sighted.

He'll make minor moves to create cap space and keep Staal in the fold. Because that's what a GM is paid to do, and what most HFers are too dense to figure out.
But Jordan is player for the first line and he must play in the third line in Pens. How many times he will agree with this situation with worse players than Malkin and Crosby in the line, that he plays little time in PP? Year, two, more or less? Look at Heatley, he has a long term contract and despite it he wants to go out. And Danny is not first and he will not last. Speak nothing of players as Nash (I pray so that Rick will sign to us) or Kovaľčuk who has a short time to end of their contract. Jordan has SC so now he can think of his career.

It is hard for Pens fans think of it but this situation can come.

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06-14-2009, 08:11 AM
  #98
Tender Rip
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I will get to have a huge fit of laughter in this forum when people realize that next seasons Pittsburgh Penguins are no worse on paper than the version that just won the Stanley Cup.

We will have less expensive players as healthy scratches though...

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06-14-2009, 08:18 AM
  #99
mt-svk
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
I will get to have a huge fit of laughter in this forum when people realize that next seasons Pittsburgh Penguins are no worse on paper than the version that just won the Stanley Cup.

We will have less expensive players as healthy scratches though...
, maybe yes maybe not, but Philla, Caps etc. will get new players. Besides you are the winner of SC and every team will want to win over you. I think the matches Pens - Flyers will be ... .

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06-14-2009, 08:38 AM
  #100
Tender Rip
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
, maybe yes maybe not, but Philla, Caps etc. will get new players. Besides you are the winner of SC and every team will want to win over you. I think the matches Pens - Flyers will be ... .
Oh.... I am not claiming we are going to repeat here. Not necessarily at least .

Just that those who argue we have to trade a big player will be disappointed at least until 2010/11. Just like the Pens fans who think of (dream of) a big name winger arriving will be disappointed also.

If we can't sign Guerin and Fedotenko for something like 5 million total (and I think we can), we are going to sign two other players for that kind of money who can fill these roles. And that should do just fine with what we already have.
If we can't sign Scuderi for 2 million tops, we are going to sign someone of the same ilk who hasn't had his value hiked by glorious exposure like Scuderi has just gotten - for much less. Remember, outside of Pens fans NO ONE rated Scuderi two months ago. If he takes a lot of money from a non-contender this off-season, chances are that his name is never mentioned in the mainstream press ever again.

The rest is all manageable and those who don't think so simply don't know who we have in Wilkes Barre nor how easy and cheap it is to find competent bottom six players. At least Shero has made that look easy the last two years (Adam Hall, Zigomanis, Adams).

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