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Old
06-14-2009, 03:04 PM
  #26
Joey Moss
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Originally Posted by Ace88 View Post
I dunno man i think i would do it as the Leafs...if we can then move up to 5th overall and take Schenn with it, then take Glennie if he's still at #22, then this draft would be a smashing success for us
lol, Scott Glennie at 22nd overall? good luck with that, the Oilers may take him at 10th...

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06-14-2009, 03:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
not in a deep draft as this one..... your overall premise is correct though. in a draft as deep as this there are legit 1st rounders into the mid 2nd. As an Isles fan I would not even think of moving 26. 31 or 37
This depends. If you feel that there is a guy still available at 21 (not 22 as the OP suggested) that you thought should have gone around 15th and that you feel there is another drop off in talent (ie - another "tier" in the talent level) then you may very well be willing to move the 31st and 37th pick for the 21st pick.

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06-14-2009, 03:05 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
The Leafs are not moving up to 5th overall. Burke explictly said he had contacted all of the top five GMs and found nobody willing to deal.
Which I continue to feel is due in part to snow doing a masterful job of disinformation and no one having any credible info

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06-14-2009, 03:08 PM
  #29
Darth Milbury
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Immediately following which he said that most deals are formed closed to draft day and that he'd keep trying.

Its funny how Leaf fans can even turn a thread about Flyers acquiring more second rounders into another fantasy-fest about top 5 picks:

This year, Burke says thereís a group of five players that rises above the rest and heís intent on getting into that territory. ďIím not going to tell you our list but from talking to other GMs, it looks like thereís an elite group of five and then thereís a drop-off,Ē Burke said after a meeting of NHL general managers here today. ďAnd that big five, in any sequence, is John Tavares, Victor Hedman, Matt Duchene, Evander Kane and Brayden Schenn. Those are the only five names I hear. So, yes, Iím trying to move up from No. 7 and the goal would be to get into that group. Iíve had extensive talks with other teams but havenít made progress. Iím not going to do it at any price; my ego isnít that big that Iíd make a dramatic over-payment just to move up, but if we can do something that makes sense, weíre going to try


Burke is pretty clear with what he is saying here. The prices are too high NOW. And, in the past, prices have only risen on the draft day.

The Leafs are drafing 7th overall - if they don't trade late into the first round.

Time for you guys to start dealing with reality.

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06-14-2009, 03:10 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by OilGagner89 View Post
lol, Scott Glennie at 22nd overall? good luck with that, the Oilers may take him at 10th...
umm, yeah. If Glennie is available at the Flyers pick then I flat out DON'T trade the pick unless you give me a pick in the top 30 this year and you 1st and 2nd rnd picks NEXT year.

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06-14-2009, 03:11 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
Which I continue to feel is due in part to snow doing a masterful job of disinformation and no one having any credible info

I totally disagree. First, Snow's "masterful job of disinformation" has been simply not to acknowledge who he is going to draft. And, most GMs in the same position - i.e., having a choice between three guys who are close to each in overall potential, would do the same. There has been nothing even vaguely unsual about Snow's strategy, media hysteria in Toronto not withstanding.

Second, what the Isles do at first is of little relevance to Toronto since they basically have no shot whatsoever of trading into the top three. The real issue here is whether or not they could move up to 4 or 5 and get a shot at Schenn, and I think it is pretty clear from what Burke has said that isn't going to happen either.

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06-14-2009, 03:12 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Its funny how Leaf fans can even turn a thread about Flyers acquiring more second rounders into another fantasy-fest about top 5 picks:

This year, Burke says thereís a group of five players that rises above the rest and heís intent on getting into that territory. ďIím not going to tell you our list but from talking to other GMs, it looks like thereís an elite group of five and then thereís a drop-off,Ē Burke said after a meeting of NHL general managers here today. ďAnd that big five, in any sequence, is John Tavares, Victor Hedman, Matt Duchene, Evander Kane and Brayden Schenn. Those are the only five names I hear. So, yes, Iím trying to move up from No. 7 and the goal would be to get into that group. Iíve had extensive talks with other teams but havenít made progress. Iím not going to do it at any price; my ego isnít that big that Iíd make a dramatic over-payment just to move up, but if we can do something that makes sense, weíre going to try


Burke is pretty clear with what he is saying here. The prices are too high NOW. And, in the past, prices have only risen on the draft day.

The Leafs are drafing 7th overall - if they don't trade late into the first round.

Time for you guys to start dealing with reality.
If you can spin that entire quote off as FACT that he cannot move up 2 spots at all, I think its perfectly reasonable that I can take the bolded part to provide that Toronto still has the opportunity to move up. Moving up 2 spots (Even though I realize the top 5 is very strong) is still only 2 spots. Very doable.

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06-14-2009, 03:17 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
If you can spin that entire quote off as FACT that he cannot move up 2 spots at all, I think its perfectly reasonable that I can take the bolded part to provide that Toronto still has the opportunity to move up. Moving up 2 spots (Even though I realize the top 5 is very strong) is still only 2 spots. Very doable.
Keep telling yourself that, and you can live in the same deluded state as the rest of the Leaf fans here. Its almost laughable, really. I go to the Toronto board and you guys are having a debates as to which of Duchene or Hedman you'll take when you get the #2 overall, and the draft thread is titled "7th overall FOR NOW."

Burke said he had extensive talks with other GMs, been told that they all saw the top five as being a cut above, and weren't interested in moving.

Its over. Toronto is drafting 7th overall - at best. If it makes yourself feel better to believe otherwise, knock yourself out. But, fantasies don't determine draft position - reality does.

I hope Kadri works out well for you guys.

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06-14-2009, 03:20 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Keep telling yourself that, and you can live in the same deluded state as the rest of the Leaf fans here. Its almost laughable, really. I go to the Toronto board and you guys are having a debates as to which of Duchene or Hedman you'll take when you get the #2 overall, and the draft thread is titled "7th overall FOR NOW."

Burke said he had extensive talks with other GMs, been told that they all saw the top five as being a cut above, and weren't interested in moving.

Its over. Toronto is drafting 7th overall - at best. If it makes yourself feel better to believe otherwise, knock yourself out. But, fantasies don't determine draft position - reality does.

I hope Kadri works out well for you guys.

You have an odd way of playing your opinion off as fact in a very demeaning way. I honestly believe you have a vendetta against Leaf fans/Organization.

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06-14-2009, 03:22 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
You have an odd way of playing your opinion off as fact in a very demeaning way. I honestly believe you have a vendetta against Leaf fans/Organization.

And, sometimes I think you have the same sense of entitlement as your fellow Toronto fans...

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06-14-2009, 03:25 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This depends. If you feel that there is a guy still available at 21 (not 22 as the OP suggested) that you thought should have gone around 15th and that you feel there is another drop off in talent (ie - another "tier" in the talent level) then you may very well be willing to move the 31st and 37th pick for the 21st pick.
you may be Phlocky.... and no offense but if im Garth Snow..... It would have to be a guy I have in my top 8 and even then I think long and hard and think some more

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06-14-2009, 03:34 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
I totally disagree. First, Snow's "masterful job of disinformation" has been simply not to acknowledge who he is going to draft. And, most GMs in the same position - i.e., having a choice between three guys who are close to each in overall potential, would do the same. There has been nothing even vaguely unsual about Snow's strategy, media hysteria in Toronto not withstanding.

Second, what the Isles do at first is of little relevance to Toronto since they basically have no shot whatsoever of trading into the top three. The real issue here is whether or not they could move up to 4 or 5 and get a shot at Schenn, and I think it is pretty clear from what Burke has said that isn't going to happen either.
Thats ok Darth thats why I said in part

I believe Brian Burke's original statement was said with a purpose in mind. if that premise is accepted as fact which I do then Garth's reaction does indeed have an effect. cause and effect Darth. Other GM's Have noticed why else would there even be reports of other GM's being peeved by Garth being so "Secretive" as Botta and Logan reported recently.

other GMS noticed and they are following suit


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Old
06-14-2009, 03:46 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
You have an odd way of playing your opinion off as fact in a very demeaning way. I honestly believe you have a vendetta against Leaf fans/Organization.
Just ignore the old man. He get's riled up anytime a leafer suggests it's possible to move up one or two spots.

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06-14-2009, 03:51 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Its funny how Leaf fans can even turn a thread about Flyers acquiring more second rounders into another fantasy-fest about top 5 picks:

This year, Burke says thereís a group of five players that rises above the rest and heís intent on getting into that territory. ďIím not going to tell you our list but from talking to other GMs, it looks like thereís an elite group of five and then thereís a drop-off,Ē Burke said after a meeting of NHL general managers here today. ďAnd that big five, in any sequence, is John Tavares, Victor Hedman, Matt Duchene, Evander Kane and Brayden Schenn. Those are the only five names I hear. So, yes, Iím trying to move up from No. 7 and the goal would be to get into that group. Iíve had extensive talks with other teams but havenít made progress. Iím not going to do it at any price; my ego isnít that big that Iíd make a dramatic over-payment just to move up, but if we can do something that makes sense, weíre going to try


Burke is pretty clear with what he is saying here. The prices are too high NOW. And, in the past, prices have only risen on the draft day.

The Leafs are drafing 7th overall - if they don't trade late into the first round.

Time for you guys to start dealing with reality.
Uh how often do draft pick deals get made 3 weeks prior to the draft?

Burke said yeah he couldnt get any deals done yet but he isnt worried at all.

.. everytime burke has done it .. and traded up to get 1st (pronger), and 2nd and 3rd (sedins) we're all at the draft... last year when we traded up - at the draft.. Just cause nothing happened yet dosent mean a thing my friend. I think right now LA and PHO would look to move down if the leafs could offer them that incentive.

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06-14-2009, 03:57 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
you may be Phlocky.... and no offense but if im Garth Snow..... It would have to be a guy I have in my top 8 and even then I think long and hard and think some more

I completely understand this, and if you don't think there's much difference between the guys still available at 21st and the next 10 or so then you obviously DON'T make the trade. however, if you believe that a guy has slipped and has the potential to really be an impact 1st line player and the guys you have pegged at 31st and 37th would only be 2nd line players in your eyes then I think yo most definitely make the trade. If, and this is a BIG if, you as the GM of the NYI believe that there is still a guy on the board at the 21st pick who is going to become the next Mike Richards or Ryan Kesler then I think you make the trade. Again, if you don't feel that strongly about anyone still on the board being that much better than the rest then you DON'T make the trade.

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06-14-2009, 04:02 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I completely understand this, and if you don't think there's much difference between the guys still available at 21st and the next 10 or so then you obviously DON'T make the trade. however, if you believe that a guy has slipped and has the potential to really be an impact 1st line player and the guys you have pegged at 31st and 37th would only be 2nd line players in your eyes then I think yo most definitely make the trade. If, and this is a BIG if, you as the GM of the NYI believe that there is still a guy on the board at the 21st pick who is going to become the next Mike Richards or Ryan Kesler then I think you make the trade. Again, if you don't feel that strongly about anyone still on the board being that much better than the rest then you DON'T make the trade.
yes i agree.

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06-14-2009, 04:06 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Lilou View Post
Just ignore the old man. He get's riled up anytime a leafer suggests it's possible to move up one or two spots.
I've seen fewer and fewer people take him seriously. He pushes his opinion as fact. He's like a Jehova's witness.

I don't know that they move up, the best they do is 5th and would have to pay a lot, that's why GM's wait till draft day to consider moving down, they know they can get more if the demand is there and the decision making time is low. They won't move out of the top 7, and I thought it was pretty funny that Darth thinks we will take Kadri ahead of Schenn, Cowen or MPS(one of these guys will be available there, propably Cowen or MPS).

Anyway, for the Leafs, I would probably do the trade to get the 21st, very solid prospects available there, but then again, we need more depth.

I'm not sure I move out of there if I am the Flyers, but they could get depth and get a goalie they needs without having to take one way to high. I'm also a Flyer's fan. I think these are actually legit proposals, I just don't see the Isles making the move since they have a number of picks in that area already.

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06-14-2009, 04:17 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Theron View Post
Uh how often do draft pick deals get made 3 weeks prior to the draft?

Burke said yeah he couldnt get any deals done yet but he isnt worried at all.

.. everytime burke has done it .. and traded up to get 1st (pronger), and 2nd and 3rd (sedins) we're all at the draft... last year when we traded up - at the draft.. Just cause nothing happened yet dosent mean a thing my friend. I think right now LA and PHO would look to move down if the leafs could offer them that incentive.

This is a very good point. This is how I personally see the events as they have unfolded to this point.

Burke went around and got a "feel" from all the guys ahead of him as to who everyone kind of had their eyes on. From this he pretty much KNOWS that the guy he wants, be it one specifically or one of the group of 5 he listed, will NOT be there when his pick at 7 comes up.

Burke really really wants someone in the top 5, that much is pretty obvious. He found out what each team wants in return for their pick in the top 5 and pretty much ALL feel there is a significant drop off after the top 5 so they are going to be asking for pretty good compensation to drop back to 7th. I think that all view the player taken at #5 >>> the player taken at #7. Burke didn't jump on any of the asking prices at that time because he was still feeling out the other GM's with picks in the top 5. Burke knows what the asking price is now and now he has to decide if it's worth it.

I don't think any deal will get made before draft day. Persoanlly, I think Burke WILL pony up the asking price to move up into the top 5, I think he values someone up there that highly. I think he's looking for his future franchise forward and I doubt he finds that at #7. I don't think the asking price to move up into the top 5 will drop and Burke knows the asking price right now. It may INCREASE, but I doubt it.

I think Burke is pretty sly. I think he has a really good feel for who will be taken 1st through 4th and who will be availabe at #5. I think that he'll move up into the 5th spot and that the guy the Kingsreally want won't be there at #5. I think that the Kings may be willing to move back if the guy they want is already gone and that this player available at #5 IS one that Burke would really really like ot have. I think Burke will wait until then to talk to the Kings and see if he can get the 5th overall for slightly less than what everyone else was asking for.

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06-14-2009, 04:22 PM
  #44
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The deal with the Islanders wouldn't be bad for the Flyers, I think, especially considering the top goalies in the draft should all still be available at #36, and you can still get a very good player with a late 2nd rounder. Maybe another big center with 2nd/3rd line upside.

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06-14-2009, 04:39 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
Keep telling yourself that, and you can live in the same deluded state as the rest of the Leaf fans here. Its almost laughable, really. I go to the Toronto board and you guys are having a debates as to which of Duchene or Hedman you'll take when you get the #2 overall, and the draft thread is titled "7th overall FOR NOW."

Burke said he had extensive talks with other GMs, been told that they all saw the top five as being a cut above, and weren't interested in moving.

Its over. Toronto is drafting 7th overall - at best. If it makes yourself feel better to believe otherwise, knock yourself out. But, fantasies don't determine draft position - reality does.

I hope Kadri works out well for you guys.
Ya we heard this last year too and how did it turn out?

Exactly

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06-14-2009, 04:40 PM
  #46
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I've seen fewer and fewer people take him seriously. He pushes his opinion as fact. He's like a Jehova's witness.
Thats your opinion Darth is very well thought of by many people on these boards. He has no agenda against the Leafs other than the minority who arent rational among their fanbase. you should save your pity for the many great leaf fan posters out there who have to appologize for them every day.

Id nominate guys like Grabo84 Almo Nathan311 for sainthood if i could and even those I dont always agree with Like Dubey DG93 EucaLEAFtys Mess and others I have great discussions with that I respect to no end. they are smart men I learn from and I appreciate them greatly

What you dont seem to get is that you simply dont argue with a guy you dont respect Why waste your time. hell truth be known 90% of all I know I learned from guys who cared enough to argue what they believed

Darth follows that principle as well. we all disagree my friend. the truly wise among us like Grabo84 (hehe) gain from it

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06-14-2009, 06:11 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury View Post
As to the OP, you can't really talk about pick-for-pick deals at this point in time because the value of moving is going to be determined at the draft. On an absolute level, I see little to no motivation for the Isles to move from 26th to 22nd. Four spots at that end of the draft is going to accomplish that much UNLESS there is some player the ISles want availabe at 22nd who they expect to be gone at 26th.
Actually Darth, the OP proposed that the Isles give up 37 and 56 for 22 and 112.

We'd actually keep 26 and 31.

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06-14-2009, 06:21 PM
  #48
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Not 17th overall, the 47th overall.
thats stoopid

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06-14-2009, 06:25 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by CIsle View Post
Actually Darth, the OP proposed that the Isles give up 37 and 56 for 22 and 112.

We'd actually keep 26 and 31.

I see little chance of the Flyers trading the 21st (NOT the 22nd like the OP MISTAKENLYstated) the whole way down to the 37th just to pick up a VERY LATE 2nd rnd pickand we STILL have to give up our 3rd too. That's pretty unrealistic and if any NYI fan were to protest over this I think you'd be crazy. Hell, if the flyers could move up from the 21st pick to say the top 12 and all it cost them was a 3rd I'd take the deal and run away laughing. A deal between the Flyers and NYI woudl probably be something along the lines of 21st for 31st and 37th.

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06-14-2009, 06:25 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by NoThreat View Post
I've seen fewer and fewer people take him seriously. He pushes his opinion as fact. He's like a Jehova's witness.

I don't know that they move up, the best they do is 5th and would have to pay a lot, that's why GM's wait till draft day to consider moving down, they know they can get more if the demand is there and the decision making time is low. They won't move out of the top 7, and I thought it was pretty funny that Darth thinks we will take Kadri ahead of Schenn, Cowen or MPS(one of these guys will be available there, propably Cowen or MPS).

Anyway, for the Leafs, I would probably do the trade to get the 21st, very solid prospects available there, but then again, we need more depth.

I'm not sure I move out of there if I am the Flyers, but they could get depth and get a goalie they needs without having to take one way to high. I'm also a Flyer's fan. I think these are actually legit proposals, I just don't see the Isles making the move since they have a number of picks in that area already.
While I may not agree with a lot of his opinions the guy still knows his hockey and there's no reason to trash him on this board. He's just stating his opinion no reason to say anyhting else demeanign about him. If there's one guy I'd go to on this board about Islander hockey its him, and if you say otherwise you're crazy. There are other good guys but he is the best and knows as much about his team as anyone else in here. Not to slurp on his **** or anything just no reason to say something demeaning in this case.

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