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Old
06-16-2009, 09:35 AM
  #76
Wingnut31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Novel idea but he has a NTC and Holland isn't going to ask him to waive it to trade him because he realizes how important he is to this team.
Didn't realize he had a NTC but as a team they didn't score a bunch in the final so it's tough to lose a 40 goal guy. We all have no idea what injuries did to guys in the finals so it's tough to tell if Rafalski looking soft can be put down to being hurt or is a sign of the future.

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Old
06-16-2009, 10:38 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire11 View Post
Jamie Lundmark is another interesting option in terms of adding some cheap depth up front. He's a RH shot, plays with some grit(as far as I can remember), and was a 1st rounder and top prospect, so he has some decent skills. He could turn out to be a similar player to Dan Cleary for the Wings.
some other posters have mentioned right-shooting F's.

i made a list

knuble
lehtinen
kotalik
gionta
neil
laperriere
dvorak
parrish
samuelsson

plus

lang
williams
shanahan


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think it comes down to a couple of things, what each player brings relative to his price, and what the team needs will be in the next few years. A 40G scorer taking less than $6 million cap hit is almost unheard of-- and may not happen here, but it seems at least they're talking. Then you look at everyone else. You can't really let Cleary go if you're also potentially losing Sammy and Hudler. Or you swap out Flip with Cleary, but Flip has to move up to the top six as a winger, not a center. The way the team is set up right now... you have Dats, Z, Hossa, Homer, Franzen and Cleary as your bonafide top six forwards. Do you lose Flip to keep Homer, for example, because Flip is a better player? Yet-- you are turning him into a winger, not a center.

1. Who are your top 4 wingers if Hossa leaves?
2. Is Filppula as a third line center being paid too much?
3. If Flip is moved to the top six, who is your third line center?

What does it look like the year after next when Homer, Malts, Draper and Lidstrom appear to be done?

I guess what I'm saying is that the middle/depth/experienced by relatively cheap guys could get squeezed out if you opt to keep the best forward out of the group around, while also having to keep clearly past their prime, and almost gone in one more year guys around-- for one more year.
i still do not see the point of separating datsyuk and zetterberg. they play well separately, but they are generally better together, and DRW do not have the greatest scoring W's.

ZDH
franzen flippula cleary
leino helm samuelsson
maltby draper kopecky?


i prefer ZDF to the other possibilities, but then 2nd line is weaker.

but DRW had the 3rd best offense in '08 without a great 2nd line.


hudler could be re-signed. hudler--filppula--cleary/samuelsson worked well all season.



but i think the lineup is weaker if datsyuk and zetterberg are separated.
datsyuk needs a goalscorer. only goalscorers are zetterberg and franzen.

i think zetterberg is a better goalscorer than franzen, but if franzen plays with datsyuk, zetterberg's line will suffer.

homer datsyuk franzen
filppula zetterberg cleary
leino helm samuelsson
maltby draper kopecky?

and if franzen and zetterberg play on a line and datsyuk on another, datsyuk will not really have any weapons to use.



i hope leino can play well enough to stay in the top 6. he has good offensive ability. he just needs to improve his skating and D.



but KH may find a decent UFA scoring F. i hope so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Nope. Babs is NOT going to play Leino in the top six. He said he needed to work on his D.

You're stuck with Homer in the top six, and you either have to play Dats and Z together (Babs doesn't like that either), or you make Flip a winger.
leino did get some time with datsyuk and hossa and with filppula and hossa.

i think leino would not be a problem with datsyuk or zetterberg. he is a good cycler, and usually stays in the scoring areas. needs to be smarter with the puck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think Homer has slipped below Sammy and Hudler, sorry to say, healthy or not. Without his net front play, there's not much else there. I also rank Stuart ahead of Rafalski (!!!!!!!!) and Kronwall-- just a bit since Kronner is very effective offensively. Rafalski just seemed too much of a defensive liability whenever there was a good forecheck. Not as bad as Schneider, but teams seem to know how to expose him. He's great on the puck control and moving it though. Is he $2-3 million more better than Kronwall or Stuart? Hmmm.
i don't think rafalski is much better than kronwall.

kronwall has more gaffes. kronwall likes to rush into the attack more, while rafalski relies on point shots. rafalski is a better shooter. i think rafalski is better on PP. kronwall takes more risks. they are about equal defensively.

stuart has as many gaffes, but not the offensive ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Copied from one of our numerous Hossa threads. I didn't want to dig these numbers up again.
GuloGulo made a good comparison.

like hossa, shanahan also played on a line with datsyuk, but did not play well with him.

shanahan scored 40g. but i do not think anyone would say he was irreplaceable. it could be described as addition by subtraction.


it looked for a while that the loss of shanahan's offense was a big problem, as DRW had a weak offense early in '07. PP was also much weaker than it had been in '06. this was also the time when babcock was having the team play much more dump and chase, and it was not very effective. schneider publically said it was a bad idea.

datsyuk and zetterberg struggled offensively early in '07 when they played separately, but were dominant when they played together. they both scored more than crosby until zetterberg got injured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aar000n View Post
I know this sounds crazy but could we sighn federov and have him play defence? I rememeber we had him do that before.
im not sure if thid thread meantioned this but is draper or malby going to retire? they didnt seem as effective this year on the pk as they normall are.
imo, it is crazy. fedorov does not like to play D, and he no longer has the necessary intensity. he used to save his effort for the playoffs, but he was not playing very hard in the playoffs for washington. very similar to shanahan in his last seasons here.

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Old
06-16-2009, 11:02 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
some other posters have mentioned right-shooting F's.

i made a list

knuble
lehtinen
kotalik
gionta
neil
laperriere
dvorak
parrish
samuelsson

plus

lang
williams
shanahan


.
Some of those names were some i thought would be interesting.

I like the idea of Laperriere a lot. He has passion, toughness and would be cheap to bring here and win a cup. Hes going to a contender, why not here? He IMHO would be a stronger, better Dallas Drake and DD played a good role in our playoff run, making key plays with his physical ability at times.

Gionta is someone i would not mind seeing if we cant get Hossa back. He has a lot of speed and scoring touch. Sure, he's small, sure hes struggled but he needs a change of scenery. The guy showed he could score 40 playing in a really defensive system. Think of what he could go with a change and a more offensive system (more then NJ's thats for sure).

Kotalik, Dvorak, Lehtinen, Knuble are all either too old and past their prime or just not that good. You thought Hudler was streaky? Kotalik is worse. Dvorak hasnt had a good year since pre-lockout. Lehtinen is just too old and Knuble isnt that good anymore.

Hopefully Holland will bring in some extra passion, give the kids roster spots and go with it. I aint talking about a 20 yr deal for Ian Lappy either, a 1-2 year deal at 1 mill or less is fine by me.

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Old
06-16-2009, 11:35 AM
  #79
nik jr
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i like laperriere, too. i do not understand why colorado did not trade him, b/c he is 1 of the better 3rd/4th liners in the NHL.

gionta would be good. he is small, but plays a grittier style than most of DRW. he scores most of his goals close to the net. many garbage goals. i think he makes 4M, though. but that might have been around the time he scored 48 goals.
a big reason gionta scored 48g was that there were far more penalties in '06. gionta scored 24 PPG's (2nd in NHL to kovalchuk). elias also had a resurgence.


if KH signs a UFA, i hope it is someone gritty who goes to the net and can score. that is the most important need, imo.


any cheap UFA's would probably be signed to short contracts, so i am not worried about their age.

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Old
06-16-2009, 11:54 AM
  #80
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If you are looking for UFAs that the Wings might sign, and they're not named Hossa or Samuelsson, look at the bottom end of the pay scale. If they have the cash they'll sign Hossa, and if not they'll fill out with cheap spare parts, not guys like Gionta.

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Old
06-16-2009, 12:28 PM
  #81
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Looking at the list of UFA's that are right handed does not impress me, I don't really think any of those guys would do well in Detroit, and although Gionta is pretty good, I don't think we need a 5 foot 7 guy on our team. If we are going to get a RH shot on our team I would also like that person to address the size and power issue on our team.

I've said it earlier the only player I would acquire in a trade if Holland was actually thinking of making one is to bring in Nathan Horton.

Here is the thread that was posted near the Christmas Holidays on the Oiler boards from an article in the Ottawa Sun that claimed Horton was being shopped

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...ghlight=Horton

Who knows if Florida would still consider moving him, his play in the 2nd half of the season improved greatly from his poor start in the first half, but maybe for the right pieces florida considers moving him.

Why should Detroit want Horton? because he is frickin huge and has speed to boot,

he comes in at 6 2/3 and 229 lbs

his numbers over his past 4 seasons are

GP G A TP
2005-2006 Panthers 71 28 19 47
2006-2007 Panthers 82 31 31 62
2007-2008 Panthers 82 27 35 62
2008-2009 Panthers 67 22 23 45

He just turned 24 and is signed to a cap hit of 4 million dollars over the next 4 seasons.

The only reason this becomes a possibility is

First, Hossa does indeed want 5.5 million + long term, there is absolutely no way we can keep hossa and will have to move in even though Holland probably wants to keep him.

Second, Samuelson also wants a significant pay raise and Detroit decides to let him go to free agency

Third, Hudler wants 2.5-3 million or more on long term contract.

If these 3 players want the above scenarios for themselves, I do not think Detroit should keep any of them, and I would hope that Holland is smart enough to realize he shouldn't either. We then start talking with the Florida GM and see if Horton is still available.

If Florida will consider moving him, we see what their interest in Hudler is. If they have interest, we can sign Hudler first and then trade him to Florida (with Hudler knowing this is going to happen), or simply trade Hudler and his RFA rights to Florida. With the emergence of Booth and Frolik in Florida, and perhaps Matthias seeing more ice time next season, Florida might want someone who can help qb their pp, which was 24th last season, and Hudler would completely fit the bill for them in that area.

Also, they are losing JBo most likely, and thus could use a dman as well with good puck moving ability.

With his solid playoff performance overall, Im certain Ericsson's stock has increased, and although i hate the thought of trading him, he is an option to move if it can bring us someone of Horton's size and power. Ideally, I'd offer Kindl instead or maybe even Lebda (if florida is fooled by his offensive rushes haha).

We then offer our 1st in 09 and I think we can make Florida bite

Hudler + Ericsson + 1st 09 for Horton

Some might think this is overpayment, but I am willing to overpay if it means we can bring someone who is a RH shot, can score, play a power game, and have him locked up at a decent salary for the next 4 seasons.

Ideally, i'd rather the trade be

Hudler + Kindl + 1st 09 + 3/4th 09 for Horton

Just because I prefer Ericsson to join the top 4 if Lidstrom does retire after next season.

If we can bring a player like Horton in, I say we pursue Shanahan on a league minimum or very low contract (4th liner press box player) to help us develop Horton into the player he can become. People might think he is not a good player and has attitude problems as I've read on the oiler boards, but I think a lot of that has to do with being brought up in the Florida organization and I doubt they have the ability to develop a player the way the red wings do. If we can get this guy and develop him in these next couple of years, I think we have a Getzlaf type player here, and I am pretty certain every single one of us would love to have Getzlaf here though we probably hate him when he plays us cause of how he beats our team up both physically and on the score sheet. Since we can't get Getz, why not get someone who can go head to head with him in future playoff rounds.

I know this is a very very very low possibility of happening, but if the scenario with Hossa, Hudler, and Sammy all pan out the way they might with them all wanting raises that the wings do not think they are worth, I think we do have the assets available to make a trade like this happen.

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Old
06-16-2009, 01:09 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post

GuloGulo made a good comparison.

like hossa, shanahan also played on a line with datsyuk, but did not play well with him.

shanahan scored 40g. but i do not think anyone would say he was irreplaceable. it could be described as addition by subtraction.


it looked for a while that the loss of shanahan's offense was a big problem, as DRW had a weak offense early in '07. PP was also much weaker than it had been in '06. this was also the time when babcock was having the team play much more dump and chase, and it was not very effective. schneider publically said it was a bad idea.

datsyuk and zetterberg struggled offensively early in '07 when they played separately, but were dominant when they played together. they both scored more than crosby until zetterberg got injured.
Aha! GuloGulo gave me a good case to back up my comments.

The PP was much weaker not due to dump/chase.... They were ineffective. Two things. 2005/06 was an anomaly year with the penalty parade. It was clearly documented that a much higher percentage of the game was on special teams, league-wide. Nevertheless, the Wings went down in the first round to the Oilers. They went much farther with the worse PP rate in 07, but some have argued that it was their failure to convert on a couple of key PP, including a 5-on-3 that ultimately led to their demise. In spite of their defensemen being hurt, they almost put the the Ducks away... One can argue it was the special teams that did them in at that point, as one could also argue they would have been better with Schneider and Kronwall playing. Schneider was one of their PP specialists, but again, the team struggled the entire year.

The next season, Babs decided to put D-Z together, adding Homer. The line took off and for a good part of the season, was the top scoring line in the NHL. They failed to find the same chemistry in the stretches where Babs tried that this year.

Holland made a pitch for Hossa at the deadline, and I think he wants to keep him. Babs says he wants him back and felt he was a great addition to team, liked his work ethic and how he got along with the team. Lidstrom said the same thing, adding it's hard to find a 40+ G guy. Add: It's even hard to find one when you don't have $8 million of cap space.

I think having Hossa fills a significant hole in the top six that Holland recognized was there after Shanny left. He attempted to fill it with Gomez, then Hossa at the deadline, then an offer during the UFA season which he figured was too low..... He must see some value there, and maybe, as others have said, saving Hudler and Sammy when you have Helm, Leino and Abdelkader pushing up from the bottom isn't the best trade-off... I've even suggested the unthinkable that these guys shouldn't even be the ones that are the trade-off, but all know the score on that one.

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06-16-2009, 01:14 PM
  #83
nik jr
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if florida is open to trading horton, i hope KH looks into it.

i do not think garrioch is the most reliable writer.

but i don't see any reason for florida to trade horton. he is a key F on a team that does not have much firepower.

if they lose bouwmeester, they would be smarter to try to get a UFA d-man. many to choose from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
If you are looking for UFAs that the Wings might sign, and they're not named Hossa or Samuelsson, look at the bottom end of the pay scale. If they have the cash they'll sign Hossa, and if not they'll fill out with cheap spare parts, not guys like Gionta.
agreed, but i don't expect gionta to be that expensive. he's a 20-25g scorer.
more than 3 is too much for gionta, imo.

gionta is basically a smaller, more offensive-minded, less defensive-minded version of cleary.


knuble seems better, but he is slow and declining. similar to homer in many ways.

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Old
06-16-2009, 01:32 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
if florida is open to trading horton, i hope KH looks into it.

i do not think garrioch is the most reliable writer.

but i don't see any reason for florida to trade horton. he is a key F on a team that does not have much firepower.

if they lose bouwmeester, they would be smarter to try to get a UFA d-man. many to choose from.

agreed, but i don't expect gionta to be that expensive. he's a 20-25g scorer.
more than 3 is too much for gionta, imo.

gionta is basically a smaller, more offensive-minded, less defensive-minded version of cleary.

knuble seems better, but he is slow and declining. similar to homer in many ways.
The Wings have no business paying 3 mil for a 20-25 goal scorer. They can have Hudler or Sammy for less than that.

Knuble would be a good pickup but he would have to come in under 2, and he could definitely get more on the open market.

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Old
06-16-2009, 05:08 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
The Wings have no business paying 3 mil for a 20-25 goal scorer. They can have Hudler or Sammy for less than that.

Knuble would be a good pickup but he would have to come in under 2, and he could definitely get more on the open market.
i agree with that. i was speaking generally. i don't think gionta should get more than 3 from any team.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Aha! GuloGulo gave me a good case to back up my comments.

The PP was much weaker not due to dump/chase.... They were ineffective. Two things. 2005/06 was an anomaly year with the penalty parade. It was clearly documented that a much higher percentage of the game was on special teams, league-wide. Nevertheless, the Wings went down in the first round to the Oilers. They went much farther with the worse PP rate in 07, but some have argued that it was their failure to convert on a couple of key PP, including a 5-on-3 that ultimately led to their demise. In spite of their defensemen being hurt, they almost put the the Ducks away... One can argue it was the special teams that did them in at that point, as one could also argue they would have been better with Schneider and Kronwall playing. Schneider was one of their PP specialists, but again, the team struggled the entire year.
i am aware of these things, but i don't know how they are related to the hossa shanahan comparison.


Quote:
The next season, Babs decided to put D-Z together, adding Homer. The line took off and for a good part of the season, was the top scoring line in the NHL. They failed to find the same chemistry in the stretches where Babs tried that this year.
i think datsyuk and zetterberg too often played too selfishly. each often seemed to want to be the main man on the line, and that ruined what made them so effective together.
it even happened a bit in the '08 playoffs. game 3 was the worst, and they were separated in OT of game 5.

they played better in the '09 finals, though.

Quote:
Holland made a pitch for Hossa at the deadline, and I think he wants to keep him. Babs says he wants him back and felt he was a great addition to team, liked his work ethic and how he got along with the team. Lidstrom said the same thing, adding it's hard to find a 40+ G guy. Add: It's even hard to find one when you don't have $8 million of cap space.

I think having Hossa fills a significant hole in the top six that Holland recognized was there after Shanny left. He attempted to fill it with Gomez, then Hossa at the deadline, then an offer during the UFA season which he figured was too low..... He must see some value there, and maybe, as others have said, saving Hudler and Sammy when you have Helm, Leino and Abdelkader pushing up from the bottom isn't the best trade-off... I've even suggested the unthinkable that these guys shouldn't even be the ones that are the trade-off, but all know the score on that one.
gomez?
but i guess that was before NYR gave him a terrible contract.


if DRW have a significant hole in the top 6, does not every team have such a hole? imo, even without hossa, DRW have among the best top 6. just like '08.




you are thinking on paper, as if they had not just played 90+ games together.


number of goals a player scored is not the most important point.

a line that plays well together creates scoring chances. a line that does not play well together generally creates fewer scoring chances.
that is why hossa had fewer scoring chances than almost any F in the playoffs.
of course, a line that has no talent will score less, but we have certainly seen lines and teams full of talent that failed to score.

i pointed out in the other thread that hossa depends very heavily on the rush for his offense. teams that make the playoffs are usually good defensive teams that do not allow many odd man rushes.
i do not remember hossa getting many scoring chances off the rush, other than a few vs chicago, a couple of which became goals.



i think i have asked a few times, but you have never answered.
do you think hossa was a good fit?
why was datsyuk so much better without hossa?




shanahan and hossa both scored 40g despite little or no chemistry with their linemates.

DRW were fine without shanahan.

despite a terrible start and a weak PP, DRW were 10th in GF in '07.

in '08, DRW were 3rd in GF, prior to the emergence of franzen and hudler.

in '09, DRW were nearly as far above 2nd in GF as 2nd was above average.


losing hossa's goals is not a big problem.


zetterberg will probably have a better season. franzen's role will be bigger. leino and helm will not be in the AHL.
ericsson will play in the NHL, but i am not sure he will score more than lilja.




if hossa wants to accept 4M, KH may have to sign him. but then the problem is that DRW would have a player who does not fit for a long time. i also do not the idea of yet another very long contract (though i am no longer worried about franzen's).

another problem is that hossa depends so much on his speed instead of positioning. he will be much less effective when he can no longer outskate defenders.

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06-16-2009, 05:10 PM
  #86
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Detroit will figure this out, they always do, expect to use some new prospects, or some character players to just fill out the bottom lines. Either way they will be fine.

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06-16-2009, 05:13 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
ericsson will play in the NHL, but i am not sure he will score more than lilja.
what?

i love lilja, but c'mon...ericsson is twice as good offensively on a bad day.

ericsson has a hell of shot. i think 10 goals are possible if he gets PP-time. he had 4 goals in the POs in 22 games. and ericsson is a nice puckmover.

lilja is more of a brilliant playmaker though. his passes are deadly weapons (for both teams)

edit: damn...lilja post and i forgot the

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06-16-2009, 05:17 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
The Wings have no business paying 3 mil for a 20-25 goal scorer. They can have Hudler or Sammy for less than that.

Knuble would be a good pickup but he would have to come in under 2, and he could definitely get more on the open market.
Filppula, in a good season? 10, 19, and 12 G past three years....

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06-16-2009, 06:13 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Filppula, in a good season? 10, 19, and 12 G past three years....
With the Cap the way it is right now, that Filppula deal kinda looks ugly. He may have gotten about a million more than what he should be getting.

I think what can help Filppula is bringing back Hossa and playing them together all year on a line with him and Franzen. I thought Hossa and Mule had good chemistry when they were together in the playoffs. Plus, that line brings speed, skill and grit, it could be a really good line if they get the chance to build chemistry over a season.

I am 80% sure Hossa will be back and Holland can justify offering him a $5.5 million deal. Which for a player of Hossa's calibre, is a really good deal. Heck, I wouldnt be too upset about a $6 million cap hit for Hossa. Maybe it's because I still really like Hossa and always have been a huge fan of him, but I think the Wings are better with him than without, regardless of losing some depth, because they have low cap hit youngsters to fill that void. You can have, probably, a better 3rd line with Helm and Leino on it, than you would with Sammy and Hudler on it for about $2 million cheaper.

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06-16-2009, 06:23 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by dtones520 View Post
With the Cap the way it is right now, that Filppula deal kinda looks ugly. He may have gotten about a million more than what he should be getting.

I think what can help Filppula is bringing back Hossa and playing them together all year on a line with him and Franzen. I thought Hossa and Mule had good chemistry when they were together in the playoffs. Plus, that line brings speed, skill and grit, it could be a really good line if they get the chance to build chemistry over a season.

I am 80% sure Hossa will be back and Holland can justify offering him a $5.5 million deal. Which for a player of Hossa's calibre, is a really good deal. Heck, I wouldnt be too upset about a $6 million cap hit for Hossa. Maybe it's because I still really like Hossa and always have been a huge fan of him, but I think the Wings are better with him than without, regardless of losing some depth, because they have low cap hit youngsters to fill that void. You can have, probably, a better 3rd line with Helm and Leino on it, than you would with Sammy and Hudler on it for about $2 million cheaper.
3 million is pretty much the going rate for a top 6 forward. Once he plays on the PP next year, he will have about 60 points. 60 points and good defense, and a center... definitely worth 3 million.

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06-16-2009, 06:25 PM
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what?

i love lilja, but c'mon...ericsson is twice as good offensively on a bad day.

ericsson has a hell of shot. i think 10 goals are possible if he gets PP-time. he had 4 goals in the POs in 22 games. and ericsson is a nice puckmover.

lilja is more of a brilliant playmaker though. his passes are deadly weapons (for both teams)

edit: damn...lilja post and i forgot the
i thought i wrote "much more," but i guess i left it out when i had to re-type the post. i usually read over my posts a couple of times to make sure i did not make errors, but i missed that.


ericsson seems to have good offensive ability, and seems more offensive-minded than defensive-minded, but i doubt he will play on PP. he probably won't get much TOI.
if he were a right-shooter, though....


looking back at their stats, ericcson had 4p in 19 games, actually very close to lilja (13p in 60 games). stuart scored very little (15p in 67 games).

addition of leino and helm (and possibly abdelkader) should mean better offense on the lower lines, and thus more opportunities for the 3rd D-pair.


something about ericsson's slapshot seems a bit strange, but i am not sure what. it could be related to ericsson's height, but that seems wrong. i guess it may be the backswing and follow-through.

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06-16-2009, 06:25 PM
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Filppula, in a good season? 10, 19, and 12 G past three years....
Good thing there is more to the game than just scoring goals. He was paid that deal when he was our second line center on a Stanley Cup winning team. That was a good deal that Holland made. Giving Draper and Maltby 3 year extensions when he gave it to them in their careers, was not a good deal at the time or even now.

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06-16-2009, 06:32 PM
  #93
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With the Cap the way it is right now, that Filppula deal kinda looks ugly. He may have gotten about a million more than what he should be getting.

I think what can help Filppula is bringing back Hossa and playing them together all year on a line with him and Franzen. I thought Hossa and Mule had good chemistry when they were together in the playoffs. Plus, that line brings speed, skill and grit, it could be a really good line if they get the chance to build chemistry over a season.

I am 80% sure Hossa will be back and Holland can justify offering him a $5.5 million deal. Which for a player of Hossa's calibre, is a really good deal. Heck, I wouldnt be too upset about a $6 million cap hit for Hossa. Maybe it's because I still really like Hossa and always have been a huge fan of him, but I think the Wings are better with him than without, regardless of losing some depth, because they have low cap hit youngsters to fill that void. You can have, probably, a better 3rd line with Helm and Leino on it, than you would with Sammy and Hudler on it for about $2 million cheaper.
I think the problem is though that we simply do not have the cap space if Hossa signs for anything more than 4.5 million a season, and even if he comes that low, we are still in cap trouble. When I look at the cap tracker at the beginning of this thread, we only have I think 2.9 million available in cap space right now, and we need to sign 3 of, Hossa, Hudler, Sammy, Leino, and Kopecky. Leino will most likely sign for 850 000 to 1 000 000, leaving us with 1.9 million in cap space. If we have Abdelkader come up full time to play on the third line with Helm and Leino, I think he eats up another 600,000-800,000 in cap space. If we sign Kopecky to a league minimum to play on the fourth line with Maltby and Drapes, we have maybe 1 000 000 left in cap space.

I believe Holland already said he has no intention of changing up our defensive corps. There is absolutely no way we can keep Hossa on this team, and if he does come at 4-4.5 million dollar cap hit, we will need Holstrom and Lilja to either retire or both be on the LTIR for the entire 09-10 season to make it work.

People talk about moving Flip to make room for Hossa, but Flip without a doubt in my mind proved his worth to this team during this playoff run. If given significant powerplay time and a consistent spot as the 2nd line centre, he should put up 15-20 g and 40-45 a to get 55 pts on bad seasons and 65 points on his good seasons. His real strength comes from the fact that he is most likely going to already be our number one PK forward in terms of ice time this coming season, or at least by the 2010-11 season, and I think will eventually garner consideration as a selke nominee. 3 million dollars for the next 4 years to bring about 55-65 pts on a second line and be our top PKer, there is no way Holland gets rid of him to keep Hossa. Cleary, a 20 goal and 50 point player on a top 6 role, who is also a playoff warrior, there is no way holland lets him go either.

I can't really think of any other move we can do to keep Hossa, unless as mentioned, we find a way to not have Holmstrom and Lilja's salaries count against our cap, but I don't think we can plan for that to be the case at the beginning of free agency come july 1st.

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06-16-2009, 06:58 PM
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We always end up at the same point. We are thinking of letting superior players go so that we can keep some guys clearly waaaaaaaaaay past their primes for ONE more year. The problem is that the kids replacing the vets - who are better - aren't going to be as good as those vets in one more year. The other problem is that the geezer crowd will be much worse in one more year. I hear a swoosh from the vacuum being created........

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06-16-2009, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottwood View Post
Good thing there is more to the game than just scoring goals. He was paid that deal when he was our second line center on a Stanley Cup winning team. That was a good deal that Holland made. Giving Draper and Maltby 3 year extensions when he gave it to them in their careers, was not a good deal at the time or even now.
Oh, I know that but the focus always seems to be on the goals/pts. You can have Hossa at maybe $5-6 million (or a Franzen type cap hit), and you get a 40 G/80 pt guy who is solid defensively.

Or, you can have a 15-20G/40 pt guy who is solid defensively, with a $3 million cap hit to center the third line. Move him up to the top six? Sure....... but then he's 20-25G winger for Z.

I only went on this tangent because sarcastro said it was silly to pay a 20 G guy $3 million if you could get Hudler and Sammy to each get 15-20G getting <$2 million. (Although Hudler may command more... dunno.)

Somebody has to go. Somebody is being overpaid for their role and scoring. One of the problems I see is that Hossa at a Franzen cap hit is not even close to being overpaid, but may be 25% or more under market value...

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06-16-2009, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Oh, I know that but the focus always seems to be on the goals/pts. You can have Hossa at maybe $5-6 million (or a Franzen type cap hit), and you get a 40 G/80 pt guy who is solid defensively.

Or, you can have a 15-20G/40 pt guy who is solid defensively, with a $3 million cap hit to center the third line. Move him up to the top six? Sure....... but then he's 20-25G winger for Z.

I only went on this tangent because sarcastro said it was silly to pay a 20 G guy $3 million if you could get Hudler and Sammy to each get 15-20G getting <$2 million. (Although Hudler may command more... dunno.)

Somebody has to go. Somebody is being overpaid for their role and scoring. One of the problems I see is that Hossa at a Franzed cap hit is not even close to being overpaid, but may be 25% or more under market value...
but the thing is do we know if Hossa will take the franzen cap hit, if we can commit that high way robbery of course holland will find a way to make it happen if he has to get rid of some vets or such. I do find it hard to believe though someone who can command a cap hit of 6-7 million long term would accept a deal that low. I still think in the end he will want a cap hit of 5.5 and maybe 5 million at the lowest.

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06-16-2009, 07:14 PM
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Filppula, in a good season? 10, 19, and 12 G past three years....
...with next to no PP time...

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06-16-2009, 07:17 PM
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We always end up at the same point. We are thinking of letting superior players go so that we can keep some guys clearly waaaaaaaaaay past their primes for ONE more year.
Um, who are you talking about? The only younger player Detroit is in any danger whatsoever of losing is Hudler. That's the list, right?

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06-16-2009, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jussha View Post
but the thing is do we know if Hossa will take the franzen cap hit, if we can commit that high way robbery of course holland will find a way to make it happen if he has to get rid of some vets or such. I do find it hard to believe though someone who can command a cap hit of 6-7 million long term would accept a deal that low. I still think in the end he will want a cap hit of 5.5 and maybe 5 million at the lowest.
Hossa's agent knows the score. He can pull up the same salary cap sites we all use and do the math. Hossa can tell his agent right now, I'm going to try for more, and Kenny knows he should focus on re-signing the secondary guys he wants to keep. Simple.


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...with next to no PP time...
Oh, I know that, HiHD. Nice to see you in the roster/cap thread, btw. I was wondering when we'd be able to tear you away from the other stuff.

I think Filppula can be a reasonable 2nd line player. The better question is can he be what the Wings need in a 2nd line center-- assuming Babs really wants to turn one of Dats or Z into a winger? I honestly do not think Babs wants to do that. Thus, the better use of a $3 million player is (a) third line center getting 15 G per year, being better than Draper, or (b) top six forward for Z (most likely), and getting 20-25 G (reasonable estimate).

If you choose option b, your top six are:
Homer-Dats-Cleary
Franzen-Z-Flip

The bottom six: Helm, Leino, Drapes, Maltby, Sammy???, Hudler???

Maybe Babs will let Hudler play on the 2nd line over Flip? Or Sammy (good lord, I'd better turn my account off).

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Um, who are you talking about? The only younger player Detroit is in any danger whatsoever of losing is Hudler. That's the list, right?
No, I'm talking about the guys we're stuck with (and no disrespect to them)-- Drapes, Maltby, Homer. Draper and Homer look like retirement is beckoning. Homer, I don't believe, has 80+ games per year in him, while being effective. Draper? Well.... Maltby? He's rather cheap.

My scenario was along the lines of whom do you keep if Hossa is retained? The old guard or the Sammy/Hudler types (hypothetically).

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06-16-2009, 08:34 PM
  #100
HockeyinHD
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Oh, I know that, HiHD. Nice to see you in the roster/cap thread, btw. I was wondering when we'd be able to tear you away from the other stuff.
Hey, I wrote the offseason mad-lib a few pages back in this thread already, I think.

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I think Filppula can be a reasonable 2nd line player. The better question is can he be what the Wings need in a 2nd line center-- assuming Babs really wants to turn one of Dats or Z into a winger? I honestly do not think Babs wants to do that. Thus, the better use of a $3 million player is (a) third line center getting 15 G per year, being better than Draper, or (b) top six forward for Z (most likely), and getting 20-25 G (reasonable estimate).
How about option (c), a guy who can be either a third line center that even getting no relevant PP time could put up 40+ points, or he could serve as a solid 2nd line center, especially if he got 1) more PP time and 2) a linemate like Datsyuk or Zetterberg?

I like Filppula because he is versatile. If no other forwards step up and demonstrate they ought to be in the top 6, he certainly appears to have the skillset to be effective with top-tier talent on his line. Hell, he was the only guy on the whole roster that was able to resuscitate the corpse that was Hossa this past playoff.

If other forwards do step up, then Filppula is a double-plus player on the third line.

I said this a lot to start the year when we were having all those arguments about Lilja and Sammy... Options. More options are always good. That's part of the reason I am less than excited about the prospect of re-signing Hossa long term, doing so effectively reduces the Wings options to nil.

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No, I'm talking about the guys we're stuck with (and no disrespect to them)-- Drapes, Maltby, Homer. Draper and Homer look like retirement is beckoning. Homer, I don't believe, has 80+ games per year in him, while being effective. Draper? Well.... Maltby? He's rather cheap.
Draper retiring or not doesn't matter. Detroit is stuck with his cap number regardless... which means he isn't retiring. Homer's deal is a little troubling now, in it's last year... but come on. He was outperforming the deal pretty well for the middle 2/3rds of it anyway, right?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not even remotely a Homer 'fan', insofar as I think he's probably best used pretty much identically to how Hudler has been these past two years... but considering how wildly productive Homer was for a good solid 18 months, I can deal with him being a little overpaid on the back end of his deal.

Maltby... enh. He's essentially a league-minimum player with a ton of pride who has to know he's likely playing his last year as a regular forward in Detroit. I suspect we'll see some vintage Maltby in 2010.

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My scenario was along the lines of whom do you keep if Hossa is retained? The old guard or the Sammy/Hudler types (hypothetically).
If Hossa is retained at 6, you keep nobody.
If Hossa is retained at 5, you can maybe keep somebody.
If Hossa is retained at 4, you can certainly keep somebody.
If Hossa is not retained, you can keep everybody.

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