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Kaberle for Johnson

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Old
06-15-2009, 08:49 PM
  #76
bobermay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
So trade either Schenn or your 7th overall pick for Handzus and Preissing so you can be much better next year. You should take this deal for the exact reasons you are trying to state in your post. It's STUPID to value Schenn beyond the next 3 years or so and Priessing and Handzus would make you a much better team next season.

It's an absurd argument and that's my point. You say that the Kings are just Kaberle away from competing next year, I say you are wrong. Subtracting both JJ and whomever they can take with the 7th overall pick would probably do more for them than adding Kaberle. Add in that they can KEEP both of those assets and sign a UFA dman, whom I will admit won't be as good as Kabs unless they happen to land J-Bo, and the combination of the UFA dman + JJ + player picked at #7 >>>>> Kaberle NEXT YEAR AND EVERY YEAR AFTER THAT!!!!

Only 1 team in the west was worse than the Kings and you think that adding Kaberle and subtracting JJ makes them leap over 5 other teams and into the playoffs let alone actually being good enough to compete against the elite in the division like the Wings??? Get real. Toronto only needs to leap 4 team to get into the playoffs so they should be willing to trade everything just to make the playoffs by your logic right???

Here's a hint for everyone trying to talk others into accepting their trade, look at it from the other sides POV, reverse th entire scenario and ask yourself if YOU'D accept that deal. If the value or the logic of the trade fails when you reverse it then in all likelyhood your original premmis for a trade is flawed too. Tor and LAK are in about the same situation. If it doesn't make much sense for the Leafs to trade away young players/prospects and picks in a "win now" scenario then it just doesn't make much sense for the Kings to trade away young players/prospects and picks to try and win now either.
But the proposal wasn't just Kaberle:

The OP was Kaberle, Stralman, Ponikarovsky and Buffalos 2nd.

Mine was Kaberle, Tlusty, Ponikarvksy, and Carolina's 2nd. (Which was better).

Both were proposals for Johnson and the 5th Overall....

So your trying to tell us... that Kaberle, a 50+ point defencman (who could very well reach 60+, and already has in the past), Ponikarovsky, a 60 point 2nd line Winger (which you need) and one of Tlusty/Stralman (Great prospects that should be impact players in the NHL), won't make your team better next season at all? On top of this you get a 2nd round draft pick in a deep draft. I could turn out.

And those three players have a combined cap his of 7 mil!!!

What your saying doesn't make much sense IMO.


Also, Toronto and LA are NOT in the same situation. You guys already have your young core of players... players that you build around. Players that need skilled veterans such as Ponikarovsky and Kaberle.

Now, I'm not a kings fan, and I could be wrong about this. But please explain to me where a 60 point 2nd line winger, a 50+ potentiall 60 point defencman, a 2nd round and a top prospect doesn't help you compete for the playoffs?

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06-15-2009, 09:03 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
So trade either Schenn or your 7th overall pick for Handzus and Preissing so you can be much better next year. You should take this deal for the exact reasons you are trying to state in your post. It's STUPID to value Schenn beyond the next 3 years or so and Priessing and Handzus would make you a much better team next season.
Preissing and Handzus have zero value. Very few teams in this league would take them off waivers. Kaberle is an elite puck moving defenceman. What you try to argue isn't even close to what I'm saying - that a team like LA would consider trading young talent for help now. This shouldn't be controversial, it happens all the time. It has nothing to do with Kaberle, which is a player I don't want to trade.

Quote:
It's an absurd argument and that's my point. You say that the Kings are just Kaberle away from competing next year, I say you are wrong. Subtracting both JJ and whomever they can take with the 7th overall pick would probably do more for them than adding Kaberle. Add in that they can KEEP both of those assets and sign a UFA dman, whom I will admit won't be as good as Kabs unless they happen to land J-Bo, and the combination of the UFA dman + JJ + player picked at #7 >>>>> Kaberle NEXT YEAR AND EVERY YEAR AFTER THAT!!!!
When did I ever suggest that the Kings should trade JJ + #7 for Kaberle? This is notwithstanding the fact that the Kings have pick #5. Obviously that would be a bad deal for the Kings. No argument there. I have no idea why you think I said that.

Quote:
Only 1 team in the west was worse than the Kings and you think that adding Kaberle and subtracting JJ makes them leap over 5 other teams and into the playoffs let alone actually being good enough to compete against the elite in the division like the Wings??? Get real. Toronto only needs to leap 4 team to get into the playoffs so they should be willing to trade everything just to make the playoffs by your logic right???
Again, I never said they should trade for Kaberle, or that if they did they would make the playoffs. My point is that they have a good young core, and a deep pool of prospects to supplement that young core with useful players which can be used for, yes, a playoff push. Toronto has neither a good young core or a deep pool of prospects. I never suggested that LA should trade "everything". My point is that if they can add a solid defenceman (not necessarily Kaberle) or a solid forward at the cost of prospects, they'd surely consider it.

Quote:
Here's a hint for everyone trying to talk others into accepting their trade, look at it from the other sides POV, reverse th entire scenario and ask yourself if YOU'D accept that deal. If the value or the logic of the trade fails when you reverse it then in all likelyhood your original premmis for a trade is flawed too. Tor and LAK are in about the same situation. If it doesn't make much sense for the Leafs to trade away young players/prospects and picks in a "win now" scenario then it just doesn't make much sense for the Kings to trade away young players/prospects and picks to try and win now either.
Good advice. I just think that you've completely misjudged the position that LA is in right now. If Toronto had a pool of young talent like LA, i'd definitely want my GM to capitalize on that and start building a cup contender. That is, after all, the ultimate goal - GMs aren't here to collect prospects that likely won't ever contribute in the NHL.

Also, like I said earlier, this wasn't my trade, and I wasn't talking anybody into it. I just disagreed with your evaluation of where the Kings are as an organization, and what sort of moves they'll be looking to make. It has nothing to do with Kaberle.

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06-15-2009, 09:12 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hntrmn View Post
But the proposal wasn't just Kaberle:

The OP was Kaberle, Stralman, Ponikarovsky and Buffalos 2nd.

Mine was Kaberle, Tlusty, Ponikarvksy, and Carolina's 2nd. (Which was better).

Both were proposals for Johnson and the 5th Overall....
Hntrmn, both of these proposals are lousy. We won't get Johnson AND the 5th overall with a package of useful players, a 2nd rounder, and Kaberle. That isn't going to happen. If the Kings deal a package like that, they'll want to add a little bit to it and get Heatley or Pronger.

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06-15-2009, 09:13 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hntrmn View Post
But the proposal wasn't just Kaberle:

The OP was Kaberle, Stralman, Ponikarovsky and Buffalos 2nd.

Mine was Kaberle, Tlusty, Ponikarvksy, and Carolina's 2nd. (Which was better).

Both were proposals for Johnson and the 5th Overall....

So your trying to tell us... that Kaberle, a 50+ point defencman (who could very well reach 60+, and already has in the past), Ponikarovsky, a 60 point 2nd line Winger (which you need) and one of Tlusty/Stralman (Great prospects that should be impact players in the NHL), won't make your team better next season at all? On top of this you get a 2nd round draft pick in a deep draft. I could turn out.

And those three players have a combined cap his of 7 mil!!!

What your saying doesn't make much sense IMO.


Also, Toronto and LA are NOT in the same situation. You guys already have your young core of players... players that you build around. Players that need skilled veterans such as Ponikarovsky and Kaberle.

Now, I'm not a kings fan, and I could be wrong about this. But please explain to me where a 60 point 2nd line winger, a 50+ potentiall 60 point defencman, a 2nd round and a top prospect doesn't help you compete for the playoffs?
Well, first off I'm not a Kings fan. Second, the Kings have about 15 mil in cap space to sign players this season. They have there top 3 centers, 3 of their 4 top 2 line wingers, at least one for the 3rd line right now, they can ice a 4th line with whatever is left, they have their goalie for next year in Quick, and they have good young defensemen.

Would those 3 players make the Kings better next year, CERTAINLY, I never said they wouldn't. What I DID say was that they WOULDN'T make the Kings a contender ever if it DID make them a boarderline playoff team. Poni and Tlu are honestly just 2nd line players. It's possible that one could become a top line player but not likely. It is FAR more likely that the player taken at #5 WILL be a 1st line player and probably the best forward on the team (or very close to it). Tlu and Poni can't hold a candle to the potential that the 5th overall pick in this years draft has and I doub't you'll find anyone to argue with that statement. Hell, you culd bring the player chosen with the 5th pick to the NHL next year and he'll most likely be BETTER than Tlu and not too far off from Poni.

With the cap space they have they can go out and sign UFA's or make other trades where they DON'T give up a young dman with top pairing potential and the 5th overall pick. How hard is that to understand??? Even if the Kings WERE to make this trade with the Leafs they would NOT be good enough to compete with the top teams in the league before Kaberle exits stage left.

I'm telling to that if I were the M of the Kings I'd laugh at the offer of Kaberle, Poni and Tlu for JJ and the 5th. Kaberle would have absolutely ZERO value to my team because by the time we are good enough to actually compete he'd be gone. Thus the trade becomes Tlu + Poni for JJ and 5th. Me, I take JJ over Pnoi and the 5th over Tlu every day of the week and never look back, and oh, the 2nd, ppffftt, that does nothing to offset how lopsided this trade it. I MIGHT be willing to entertain Tlu + 7th for the 5th overall but even then this might not be enough for me. I really really like Schenn and he CERTAINLY won't be there at #7. Plain and simply, if you aren't sending bac your 7th overall pick then you aren't getting the 5th overall pick.

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06-15-2009, 09:19 PM
  #80
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Also, if you don't think that Handzus and Preissing would make the Leafs immediately better next year then there is something wrong with you. They are both very good players and the plyer you take with the 7th pick won't have nearly the impace those 2 will FOR NEXT YEAR. By your own logic you should be willing to make this deal.

Now if you are going to say that those 2 players are just average and not worthy of a pick that high even together then I'll offer you up Danny Briere fro the Flyers. He's a legit 1st line center and WOULD make you team immediately better with him probably being the best scorer/playmaker on your team. HE gets you guys closer to the playoffs and by your logic you should be jumping on him and willing to give up the 7th OA pick.

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06-15-2009, 09:20 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
...

Good advice. I just think that you've completely misjudged the position that LA is in right now. If Toronto had a pool of young talent like LA, i'd definitely want my GM to capitalize on that and start building a cup contender. That is, after all, the ultimate goal - GMs aren't here to collect prospects that likely won't ever contribute in the NHL.

Also, like I said earlier, this wasn't my trade, and I wasn't talking anybody into it. I just disagreed with your evaluation of where the Kings are as an organization, and what sort of moves they'll be looking to make. It has nothing to do with Kaberle.
Agreed.

And the trade proposal wasn't JUST Kaberle. It also included Kaberle, Stralman and a 2nd. (Lets just say we switched Tlusty with Stralman).

Tlusty-Kopitar-Frolov
Ponikarosvky-Stoll-Brown
Purcell-Handzus-Simmonds
Ivanans-Boyle-Zeiler

Kaberle-Doughty
Quincey-Preissing
O'Donnell-Greene

Quick/Ersberg

This could very well become a playoff contending team IMO. And a decent one at that. (I could be wrong with formations :p, don't watch Kings to much :p)

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06-15-2009, 09:20 PM
  #82
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Haha no thanks to Johnson coming to Toronto.

Offensively, Anton Stralman himself outscored Johnson in fewer games, and he himself is considered a disappointment up to this point. Johnson is an overrated prospect who has done nothing and the off ice rumblings and KHL rumours are not to his favour.

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Old
06-15-2009, 09:24 PM
  #83
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yea Id rather just make a trade for the 5th from 7th .. you guys can keep JJ.

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06-15-2009, 09:28 PM
  #84
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please Mr. Admin.......... can we close that here.........

i'm absolute fine with Johnson in L.A.....
and i don't wanna give away our 5th...
like anyone else of the Kings fan base.

That leads to nothing.... the Leafs tell me how bad Johnson is and how good Kaberle is.....

But i still deny....

that leads to nothing

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06-15-2009, 09:29 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Also, if you don't think that Handzus and Preissing would make the Leafs immediately better next year then there is something wrong with you. They are both very good players and the plyer you take with the 7th pick won't have nearly the impace those 2 will FOR NEXT YEAR. By your own logic you should be willing to make this deal.

Now if you are going to say that those 2 players are just average and not worthy of a pick that high even together then I'll offer you up Danny Briere fro the Flyers. He's a legit 1st line center and WOULD make you team immediately better with him probably being the best scorer/playmaker on your team. HE gets you guys closer to the playoffs and by your logic you should be jumping on him and willing to give up the 7th OA pick.
Read my post again. I've already covered this about five different times. The Leafs don't have a prospect pool or young core that they can add to in order to make themselves a playoff team. Where the Kings have Doughty, Brown, Kopitar, etc. the Leafs have, well, Schenn. Compared to the Kings, the Leafs have a miserable prospect pool, making it difficult for them to consider dealing prospects or picks. So, obviously, by my logic the Leafs can't afford to make deals for the present, while the Kings can.

You're forgetting Handzus and Preissing's cap hit. Preissing will likely get bought out, and Handzus is badly overpaid. Neither has any value. Briere has a ridiculous contract, which lowers his value. I'm not saying that teams should ignore value, I'm just saying that if you already have a young core (like Philly did when they pulled a one year rebuild) you can afford to deal picks and prospects. If I remember correctly, the Flyers did exactly this to expedite their rebuild.

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06-15-2009, 09:30 PM
  #86
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Me, I'll go with the follwing instead:

Frolov-Kopitar-Brown
Kane/Schenn-Stoll-Purcell
Moller-Handzus-Simmonds
Ivanans-Boyle-Zeiler

Jbo/Komisarik-Doughty
Quincey-JJ
O'Donnell/Preissing-Greene

Quick
Ersberg


Edit, BTW, it was quite laughable for you to take Tlu from the AHL last year straight to the top line in the NHL the next year while you leave a player like Frolov, who scored 59 points last year, on the 2nd line. Nice try at making Tlu look like a better player/prospect than he really is but I'm not biting.

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06-15-2009, 09:32 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hntrmn View Post
Agreed.

And the trade proposal wasn't JUST Kaberle. It also included Kaberle, Stralman and a 2nd. (Lets just say we switched Tlusty with Stralman).

Gaborik-Kopitar-Frolov
MPS-Stoll-Brown
Purcell-Handzus-Simmonds
Ivanans-Boyle-Zeiler
Johnson-Doughty
Quincey-Preissing
O'Donnell-Greene

Quick/Ersberg

This could very well become a playoff contending team IMO. And a decent one at that. (I could be wrong with formations :p, don't watch Kings to much :p)

fixed that for you.......

I know you don't watch the Kings to much, but Lombardi follows a gameplan.
He just sign "special" person players........ and Pony, Kaberle, Tlusty are exactly what he is not looking for.
And that lineup would throw us lightyears back........

Playoff...... maybe.... Stanley Cup... never

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06-15-2009, 09:36 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theron View Post
yea Id rather just make a trade for the 5th from 7th .. you guys can keep JJ.
i would love to hear your offer.....

the bad thing is we are not really good Christs who give you that for free... even when Jesus would like that...

So you have to do something for that 5th...

and try not to use..... Kaberle, Kubina, Blake, Pony, Tlusty... because they are not Lombardi players...

thank you

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06-15-2009, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
fixed that for you.......

I know you don't watch the Kings to much, but Lombardi follows a gameplan.
He just sign "special" person players........ and Pony, Kaberle, Tlusty are exactly what he is not looking for.
And that lineup would throw us lightyears back........

Playoff...... maybe.... Stanley Cup... never

This is what I've been trying to tell them. I'm not even a big Kings fans and I can see this.

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06-15-2009, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Read my post again. I've already covered this about five different times. The Leafs don't have a prospect pool or young core that they can add to in order to make themselves a playoff team. Where the Kings have Doughty, Brown, Kopitar, etc. the Leafs have, well, Schenn. Compared to the Kings, the Leafs have a miserable prospect pool, making it difficult for them to consider dealing prospects or picks. So, obviously, by my logic the Leafs can't afford to make deals for the present, while the Kings can.
So... no 5th

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06-15-2009, 09:39 PM
  #91
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Where is Williams??

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06-15-2009, 09:39 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
So... no 5th
Not sure I follow...

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06-15-2009, 09:41 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This is what I've been trying to tell them. I'm not even a big Kings fans and I can see this.
they don't have anything of value..... so they try to deal with what they have.... basically a logic decision.... but they have to learn that beside of negotiation a "NO !!!" can come the other way.
You know.. they are acting like little children who was told, If you ask friendly, he will share his sweets with you when you ask often enough

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06-15-2009, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
This is what I've been trying to tell them. I'm not even a big Kings fans and I can see this.
You've still never explained yourself properly. Let's say we take this out of the Toronto context. Why do you think it would be a bad idea for the Kings to deal for, say, Chris Pronger? Should they keep rebuilding forever?

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06-15-2009, 09:42 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Not sure I follow...
it's easy.... like you said you have not to much to offer.... so no 5th pick for you.. simple and plain

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06-15-2009, 09:43 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
i would love to hear your offer.....

the bad thing is we are not really good Christs who give you that for free... even when Jesus would like that...

So you have to do something for that 5th...

and try not to use..... Kaberle, Kubina, Blake, Pony, Tlusty... because they are not Lombardi players...

thank you
7th, 2nd round(Carolina), 3rd round*

*3rd turns into a 4th should Kane remain instead of Schenn

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06-15-2009, 09:44 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post
they don't have anything of value..... so they try to deal with what they have.... basically a logic decision.... but they have to learn that beside of negotiation a "NO !!!" can come the other way.
You know.. they are acting like little children who was told, If you ask friendly, he will share his sweets with you when you ask often enough
Give me a break. You're the guy I caught making up examples of lousy trade proposals from Leaf fans in the other thread, aren't you? You've added nothing to this.

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06-15-2009, 09:45 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Shelle121 View Post
Where is Williams??
Crap, I knew something didn't look right but I couldn't figure out what. We'd probably have to put him on the 2nd line in place of Purcell and then adjust the3rd and 4th lines from there. Honestly, with Williams in there the Kings top 2 lines (with MSP/Kane/Schenn) looks pretty darned good even without making any trades with the Leafs or signing any UFAs. Poni and Tlu don't really make the Kings top 2 lines much better but they WOULD make their 3rd line better. However, that's not nealry enough to give up the 5th overall pick and THAT'S the REAL point.

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06-15-2009, 09:45 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
You've still never explained yourself properly. Let's say we take this out of the Toronto context. Why do you think it would be a bad idea for the Kings to deal for, say, Chris Pronger? Should they keep rebuilding forever?
We are not rebuilding forever ..............
It's not that we are just one Pronger away from the Cup.... so, we keep our youth... is it that difficult to understand........
there is a cool team in the eastern conference who always trade away promising stuff for the "cool old differencemaker" they wear blue white.
just watch their standings the last 10 years and see how successfull that gameplan is.....
you could even search for a black-silver team from 1993 to 2005

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06-15-2009, 09:47 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grabo84 View Post
Give me a break. You're the guy I caught making up examples of lousy trade proposals from Leaf fans in the other thread, aren't you? You've added nothing to this.
if you wanna have added something just read the whole posts here.....
I mean even a Philly fan without any clue about the Kings tries to tell you that your proposals are insane...

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