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06-15-2009, 04:17 PM
  #1
Mr Underhill
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Countdown to July 1st!

Now that the season is officially over, I think everyone was expecting a bunch of chatter, rumors, and news regarding what the Lightning are going to do with Vinny. Well its been 3 days, and so far not a peep. Only 11 days till the draft and 16 days till July 1st. Each day without news is a good sign regarding Vinny returning. So far no smoke = no fire!

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06-15-2009, 04:47 PM
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As long as the Heatley wants out of Ottawa talks continue, there won't be much chatter involving Vinny. He's the flavor of the week. but still, that doesn't mean the GMs aren't discussing trading for Vinny privately. but i'm trying to keep all this out of my mind for now, because I'm really looking forward to the draft.

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06-15-2009, 06:13 PM
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Next Friday will determine a lot about where the franchise is headed. There's a lot that could happen: Hedman or Tavares could join the club or the pick could be traded. Vinny will still be here or we're possibly talking about two picks in the top 10 (ex. #2 and #5) along with the players/prospects also involved in the deal. Honestly I prefer the "boring" draft scenario where Hedman is the pick and Vinny is still a Bolt. However, with this ownership group that's probably the least likely scenario. I expect this week to go by without a lot of news, next week is when things will start picking up.


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06-15-2009, 06:19 PM
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I'm hoping for a boring July 1st. Sign a solid, cheap defenseman who can play in the top 4 and maybe some forward depth but that's it.

Rob Scuderi and a few forwards signed to two way deals is what I'm hoping.

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06-15-2009, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeyfan02 View Post
Next Friday will determine a lot about where the franchise is headed. There's a lot that could happen: Hedman or Tavares could join the club or the pick could be traded. Vinny will still be here or we're possibly talking about two picks in the top 10 (ex. #2 and #5) along with the players/prospects also involved in the deal. Honestly I prefer the "boring" draft scenario where Hedman is the pick and Vinny is still a Bolt. However, with this ownership group that's probably the least likely scenario. I expect this week to go by without a lot of news, next week is when things will start picking up.
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Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
I'm hoping for a boring July 1st. Sign a solid, cheap defenseman who can play in the top 4 and maybe some forward depth but that's it.

Rob Scuderi and a few forwards signed to two way deals is what I'm hoping.
No offense to anyone, but why do I get the feeling that people will gladly lower their expectations for this team as long as they can admire Vinny in a Bolts jersey next year?

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06-15-2009, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by antdvda View Post
No offense to anyone, but why do I get the feeling that people will gladly lower their expectation for this offseason just so they can admire Vinny in a Bolts jersey next year?
No offense taken because you don't know what you are talking about. I want Lecavalier to be traded if the trade makes sense.

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06-15-2009, 06:43 PM
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No offense taken because you don't know what you are talking about. I want Lecavalier to be traded if the trade makes sense.
Jesus, is this necessary? That is exactly why I said "no offense".

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06-15-2009, 06:55 PM
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Whats wrong with wanting a boring draft day? some people here don't want to see the franchise player be traded for someone unknown, this team has been through way too much, the last thing we need is seeing Vinny be traded for nothing, specially since this ownership were the ones to give him the contract in the first place.



So yeah I will gladly lower my expectation for this offseason just so I can admire Vinny in a Bolts jersey, I believe that he will have a great year, and I want to see that happening in this team.

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06-15-2009, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by antdvda View Post
Jesus, is this necessary? That is exactly why I said "no offense".
No offense but yes it was.

(No offense)

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06-15-2009, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by antdvda View Post
No offense to anyone, but why do I get the feeling that people will gladly lower their expectations for this team as long as they can admire Vinny in a Bolts jersey next year?
How am I lowering expectations? The part you bolded I want Hedman to be the pick which obviously greatly helps our defense down the road when there is no #1 defenseman on the roster or in the pipeline. And I don't want to "admire Vinny in a Bolts jersey", I just don't have a good feeling they will get a good return or one that is equal to a franchise player like Vinny. If you give me a choice between keeping Vinny and finishing last or trading Vinny and getting the franchise back in to contention, I will gladly trade Vinny. I just don't think that deal is out there. We all saw what happened when the organization made a ton of moves that were "exciting", they ended up picking in the top 2 again. Perhaps I should "raise expectations" by wanting a head case like Jack Johnson who's rumored to want a huge contract, an unproven prospect at the 5th pick, and spare parts from LA.

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06-15-2009, 07:53 PM
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I'll likely lower my expectations for next season more if I know Vinny isn't going to be on the team than knowing he is. Even under best case scenario of a VL trade yielding something that tangibly contributes next year, I don't see the team contending for a playoff spot without him. A deal might make them better overall 3-4 years down the road, but, I just can't see it helping out enough next year to expect much good of it.

Draftwise, what the Islanders do first is making it all the more anticlimatic. I hope we get Hedman. I won't be disappointed if we get Tavares. I still won't want to see a VL trade either way.

I am greatly intrigued lately by what ends up happening with the 2 2nd round picks. I think how they approach those will be chaged drastically by what happens with the 2nd overall. If its Hedman I think they'll be patient and take what falls to them at 32 and more directly address the untended need(s) at 52. But, should they end up with Tavares (or even Duchesne) I think they try hard to put a package together that nets another first round pick. I think there will still be some good value Defensemen left in the upper teens or lower twenties that are better than anything likely available when 32 rolls around.

All said, I'll be happy with a 'boring' next 16 days as far as the Lightning are concerned. Excited in relishing the boredom, bore me Lawton, put me to sleep.

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06-15-2009, 08:23 PM
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Well I guess nobody on here thinks Lawton can get fair value for Vinny. If that is the case, I cant argue with you all not wanting to trade Vinny. I just think this team is not deep enough to compete for the cup. Nor do I think we will be if all we do is draft Hedman and sign a FA. It is one thing to compete for a playoff spot and its another to compete for the cup. If they keep Vinny, they are making a decision that they think the team is ready to compete now. And by "now" I mean from the start of next season till the end of Marty's contract. The Lightning really have to evaluate if they're going to be able to have a team that can compete for the cup before Marty makes a decision on what he wants to do with his career. Because as soon as that time comes the franchise will have to evaluate where they stand again.

I have a couple of questions for you guys:

1) Do you guys honestly think this team is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years if all we do is draft Hedman and sign 1 or 2 FAs?

2) Can you give an example of what you guys think is fair value for Vinny?

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06-15-2009, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by antdvda View Post
Jesus, is this necessary? That is exactly why I said "no offense".
Because the way you said that put yourself on some pedestal as if you have all the answers and none of us know what we're talking about.

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06-15-2009, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by antdvda View Post
Well I guess nobody on here thinks Lawton can get fair value for Vinny. If that is the case, I cant argue with you all not wanting to trade Vinny. I just think this team is not deep enough to compete for the cup. Nor do I think we will be if all we do is draft Hedman and sign a FA. It is one thing to compete for a playoff spot and its another to compete for the cup. If they keep Vinny, they are making a decision that they think the team is ready to compete now. And by "now" I mean from the start of next season till the end of Marty's contract. The Lightning really have to evaluate if they're going to be able to have a team that can compete for the cup before Marty makes a decision on what he wants to do with his career. Because as soon as that time comes the franchise will have to evaluate where they stand again.

I have a couple of questions for you guys:

1) Do you guys honestly think this team is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years if all we do is draft Hedman and sign 1 or 2 FAs?

2) Can you give an example of what you guys think is fair value for Vinny?
1. Depends on how our prospects develop within the next four years.

2. Fair value is all relative to what we think our needs are.

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06-15-2009, 09:20 PM
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Because the way you said that put yourself on some pedestal as if you have all the answers and none of us know what we're talking about.
Well I didn't mean it that way, and i apologize for it coming across that way.

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06-15-2009, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BrokeBearMountain View Post
1. Depends on how our prospects develop within the next four years.

2. Fair value is all relative to what we think our needs are.
Can you give an example of what you think a fair return would be?

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06-15-2009, 09:22 PM
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How is drafting Hedman not exciting enough on draft day? We are getting a very good player here. He is the best defenseman in the draft no doubt and is seen as the best player depending on who you ask. With him, management can save money and break out those old fantastick 4 posters and photoshop a picture of Stamkos on Richards and put Hedman's head on Boyle.(although we might have to raise Boyle's body up a foot) And there you go, the new Big 4! If we draft Tavares, that kind of messes up the whole thing but whatever.

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06-15-2009, 09:32 PM
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I just think this team is not deep enough to compete for the cup. Nor do I think we will be if all we do is draft Hedman and sign a FA. It is one thing to compete for a playoff spot and its another to compete for the cup.
Obviously the goal is to compete for the stanley cup every year, but it's not something that happens in one offseason. You have to take steps in that process. Competing for the playoffs is a step. It's not like Pittsburgh just drafted Crosby and added Gonchar and was a cup contender in one offseason. First they had to get to the playoffs and then keep building on that success. Obviously theirs is a hard model to follow considering all the top picks they've had and their luck with generational talents being available at those picks. But it's a process. This team, unless they have one of the best offseasons of all time and a lot of luck, isn't competing for a cup in 2010 or 2011. Getting to the playoffs should be the first step in getting back to where they need to be. You can't go from 14th to cup contender overnight.

Quote:
If they keep Vinny, they are making a decision that they think the team is ready to compete now. And by "now" I mean from the start of next season till the end of Marty's contract. The Lightning really have to evaluate if they're going to be able to have a team that can compete for the cup before Marty makes a decision on what he wants to do with his career. Because as soon as that time comes the franchise will have to evaluate where they stand again.
If they keep Vinny, they are making the decision that the right deal isn't out there. They can't make a deal just because they don't think they can contend for a cup. They have to make a good deal, if it's not out there you don't just dump Vinny. Like I said, this team isn't going to be a cup contender next year regardles of what the team does.

I don't see why they would have to evaluate things based on Marty. This team doesn't have a window to compete yet. This team isn't going to compete for a cup by the time Marty's contract ends. They can build to that point with Marty here, but I don't think they will get to that point until after his contract is over. I have a feeling unless the organization burns a bridge or trades him to a contender at next year's deadline if they're out of the race, Marty will be here for the remainder of his career. In two years, they'll hopefully be moving towards putting a contending team on the ice...I don't think Marty will cause them to re-evaluate where they are.

Quote:
1) Do you guys honestly think this team is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years if all we do is draft Hedman and sign 1 or 2 FAs?
Of course not and no one is saying that. To be contending in a few years they have to do well in the draft(four picks in the top 75 is a start), make good decisions in free agency, make smart trades, and continue to develop the prospects they have in the system. It's not just a few moves, it's several. It's not going crazy on July 1st, it's making signings that fit what the team is trying to do instead of throwing **** against the wall and hoping it sticks. That's my point. I don't want another offseason where it looks like they're making moves just to make moves.

Quote:
2) Can you give an example of what you guys think is fair value for Vinny?
A return similar to what Edmonton got for Pronger: a young forward who can pot 30+ goals right away, a top prospect defenseman who is NHL ready, and a couple high draft choices. You just hope the player and prospect don't bust like Lupul and Smid did in Edmonton. Get pieces that can help right away as well as help stock the farm system. That's just one example off the top of my head. This team needs help in a lot of areas. Considering Vinny is coming off a bad season by his standards, just had another surgery, and has a long contract...what we're likely to get is what's been rumored with LA: young defenseman, top pick, and salary dumps. I think Lawton has done a bit better than the peanut gallery on the main boards give him credit for, but I'm not comfortable yet with him making a move that's going to have a huge impact on the franchise like a Lecavalier trade would.

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06-15-2009, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antdvda View Post
Can you give an example of what you think a fair return would be?
Right now? I'd look at someone Regehr caliber, with a center that can be a number two guy, and a mid to high ceiling prospect and possibly a pick, depending on who the trade partner is. Can't give exact names, just too many variables there, but you're obviously looking for a defensive anchor, center, prospect who is close and can preferrably play wing, and a pick.

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06-15-2009, 09:34 PM
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How is drafting Hedman not exciting enough on draft day? We are getting a very good player here. He is the best defenseman in the draft no doubt and is seen as the best player depending on who you ask.
I'll be thrilled to get Hedman on draft day. By "boring" I meant more along the lines of no surprises like trading down with Toronto.

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06-15-2009, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by antdvda View Post
Well I guess nobody on here thinks Lawton can get fair value for Vinny. If that is the case, I cant argue with you all not wanting to trade Vinny. I just think this team is not deep enough to compete for the cup. Nor do I think we will be if all we do is draft Hedman and sign a FA. It is one thing to compete for a playoff spot and its another to compete for the cup. If they keep Vinny, they are making a decision that they think the team is ready to compete now. And by "now" I mean from the start of next season till the end of Marty's contract. The Lightning really have to evaluate if they're going to be able to have a team that can compete for the cup before Marty makes a decision on what he wants to do with his career. Because as soon as that time comes the franchise will have to evaluate where they stand again.

I have a couple of questions for you guys:

1) Do you guys honestly think this team is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years if all we do is draft Hedman and sign 1 or 2 FAs?

2) Can you give an example of what you guys think is fair value for Vinny?

If they can compete for a playoff spot to the extent that they make the playoffs they would then be competing for the Cup. The past decade has shown enough 6th, 7th, and 8th seeds going deep enough into the playoffs to validate this.


I think you hit the nail on the head about Marty being the window for competing 'now'. They will have to reassess things in two years when his deal is up. So if you see that as the fork in the road to be decided upon now the choices are;

A. Hopefully compete the next two years getting valuable playoff experience for the young studs on the team while retaining enough incentive for the veterans who are still desired to want to remain here as their deals expire over the next four years.

B. Blow things up with the hopes you can get enough potentially valuable assets that when they are all matured you can compete for a longer window (Stamkos' 2nd contracts term) with a possibly better overall team than the current one and a much better financial situation for adding component parts around the new core.

C. Commit to neither extreme. Make half-hearted gestures toward both with an eye solely set toward losing the least amount of money. Erode any remaining fanbase as stars are traded or leave via free agency while wallowing in mediocrity for the next decade or so.


If they trade Vinny now it is the beginning of options B or C. If thats the case then might as well look to move Prospal, Malone, Halpern, St. Louis, et. al. now as none will be around by the time the team is ready to compete again. If half those players are moved this team will suck again next year, and likely the year after that too. Can this ownership group endure that much suckage? Can the fans? Lets just roll things back to the 90's and say Hooray?


As for your more pointed questions;

1. I honestly think this team is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years. Pigeon-holing that statement with the qualification "if all we do is draft Hedman and sign 1 or 2 FAs" undermines the other efforts required to build this squad back into a winner. It ignores other questions from the start of this offseason which will play a crucial role in how far the team can go. It is oblivious to other critical points in the future where there will be oppurtunities for further tweaking. Still, I reiterate, I think this team (its current 'core') is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years.


2. Value, as BBM succintly puts, is relative to the need. If the need is to trade and still compete I don't think fair value is possible. If the need is to rebuild into a team whose best days lie multiple years ahead I put the value at 2 of any teams top 5 prospects or NHL ready up and comers and 1 lesser piece or pick. Either way, no, I don't have faith that Lawton can get 'fair value' for Vinny.

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06-15-2009, 09:52 PM
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I'll be thrilled to get Hedman on draft day. By "boring" I meant more along the lines of no surprises like trading down with Toronto.
yep, I know. I'm just saying even a boring draft scenario is still an exciting one. It will still have all the excitement that trading a franchise player or top 2 pick would... but the good kind of excitement, and hopefully not the surprised and mad kind.

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06-15-2009, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by garmonbozia View Post
If they can compete for a playoff spot to the extent that they make the playoffs they would then be competing for the Cup. The past decade has shown enough 6th, 7th, and 8th seeds going deep enough into the playoffs to validate this.


I think you hit the nail on the head about Marty being the window for competing 'now'. They will have to reassess things in two years when his deal is up. So if you see that as the fork in the road to be decided upon now the choices are;

A. Hopefully compete the next two years getting valuable playoff experience for the young studs on the team while retaining enough incentive for the veterans who are still desired to want to remain here as their deals expire over the next four years.

B. Blow things up with the hopes you can get enough potentially valuable assets that when they are all matured you can compete for a longer window (Stamkos' 2nd contracts term) with a possibly better overall team than the current one and a much better financial situation for adding component parts around the new core.

C. Commit to neither extreme. Make half-hearted gestures toward both with an eye solely set toward losing the least amount of money. Erode any remaining fanbase as stars are traded or leave via free agency while wallowing in mediocrity for the next decade or so.


If they trade Vinny now it is the beginning of options B or C. If thats the case then might as well look to move Prospal, Malone, Halpern, St. Louis, et. al. now as none will be around by the time the team is ready to compete again. If half those players are moved this team will suck again next year, and likely the year after that too. Can this ownership group endure that much suckage? Can the fans? Lets just roll things back to the 90's and say Hooray?


As for your more pointed questions;

1. I honestly think this team is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years. Pigeon-holing that statement with the qualification "if all we do is draft Hedman and sign 1 or 2 FAs" undermines the other efforts required to build this squad back into a winner. It ignores other questions from the start of this offseason which will play a crucial role in how far the team can go. It is oblivious to other critical points in the future where there will be oppurtunities for further tweaking. Still, I reiterate, I think this team (its current 'core') is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years.


2. Value, as BBM succintly puts, is relative to the need. If the need is to trade and still compete I don't think fair value is possible. If the need is to rebuild into a team whose best days lie multiple years ahead I put the value at 2 of any teams top 5 prospects or NHL ready up and comers and 1 lesser piece or pick. Either way, no, I don't have faith that Lawton can get 'fair value' for Vinny.
Great response. Im glad im not the only one that sees the Marty window.

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06-16-2009, 11:51 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by antdvda View Post
Well I guess nobody on here thinks Lawton can get fair value for Vinny. If that is the case, I cant argue with you all not wanting to trade Vinny. I just think this team is not deep enough to compete for the cup. Nor do I think we will be if all we do is draft Hedman and sign a FA. It is one thing to compete for a playoff spot and its another to compete for the cup. If they keep Vinny, they are making a decision that they think the team is ready to compete now. And by "now" I mean from the start of next season till the end of Marty's contract. The Lightning really have to evaluate if they're going to be able to have a team that can compete for the cup before Marty makes a decision on what he wants to do with his career. Because as soon as that time comes the franchise will have to evaluate where they stand again.

I have a couple of questions for you guys:

1) Do you guys honestly think this team is capable of contending for the cup in the next few years if all we do is draft Hedman and sign 1 or 2 FAs?

2) Can you give an example of what you guys think is fair value for Vinny?
1) alot rests on the development of young players. we are absolutely lacking in wingers of all types, but aside from that 1 or 2 high-end defensemen are the glaring needs. as it stands, we have our top 2 centers (3 with halpern), we have at least 2 legitimate pieces of a top 4 defense (maybe not now but the next few years you referenced) with hedman in, and way more options than we need to fill the bottom pairing. so i think there are other ways to get the depth at winger aside from trading vinny

2) fair value means a deal that doesn't fill one hole at the expense of creating another. if we are forced to take a forward at #2, then fair value changes. but if we get hedman and for some reason STILL decide to trade vinny, you need a top center and top defenseman, plus some organizational depth at the least. i don't foresee that type of return, likely only one or the other. i look at the thornton and luongo trades and i see teams that didn't get fair value and it made them worse. with the salary cap era in full swing, it will be even harder to get fair value because the contract overrides the caliber of player you are getting.

i don't see us being satisfied with the trade that sends vinny out, and a salary dump (vrbata?) may end up being part of the consolation prize if we are forced to do a deal that is short on talent coming back.

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06-16-2009, 12:59 PM
  #25
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Why its not a good idea to trade Vinny

I can think of a million reasons why its not a good idea to trade Vincent Lecavalier but I will only list three.

1. First of all, the fans love him here and come to the games specifically to see vincent lecavalier play. You trade him and you trade the possibility of having a lot of fans not come to the games next year. A risk that if you are a smart GM or owner are not willing to take.

2. The Lightning won their last cup by drafting and making additional moves later on when the team started to show some life. If the GM or Owner is smart he would be willing to do the same thing and keep Vinny on the team to grow with the team again. We have a top pick in the draft this year which will add another piece to the puzzle. We will prolly get Hedman if the Islanders want to go offense in Tavares. Even if we do get Tavares we have our offense set for years and we will only have to be smart about drafting/adding Defensemen for years to come. We have Mike Smith too and if he stays healthy then we just have to play well in front of him to compete. If the Lightning were smart they would keep Vinny and just build the team by drafting.

3. He is really good player. I doubt no matter which team offers us in a trade it will not match a player who can make as good an impact as Vinny can. He was insane in the finals against Calgary and in the playoffs that year. If you trade Vinny you better be getting much better than the crap I have seen people say on here. We may be from Tampa that doesnt mean we dont know anything about hockey.


I have listed three reasons why Vinny should not be traded and correct me if I am wrong but they all seem to me to be great reasons why Vinny should not be traded. To me the only reason besides his big cap number is that the rumors happen every day about him and the Lightning would feel that they have to trade him because everybody thinks they should. To me it just seems like Montreal Canadians fans are jealous that we have a franchise player and that we are a Tampa team that we dont deserve him. Well boo hoo. Cry about it some more and keep making up rumors maybe it will happen. If you trade for him it better be a deal we cant refuse. The guys running Tampa have to be smart about this if they are going to trade Vinny. Otherwise you will see Tampas chance at getting another cup fly out the window, along with about half of the fans that show up to the games.

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