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Line Predictions (2009/10 Season)

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Old
07-25-2009, 01:41 PM
  #401
flyguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmchairGM View Post
Standard line-up

Pyorala-Giroux-Briere
Hartnell-Carter-Nodl
Carcillo-Richards-Lapperiere
Cote - Powe - Asham

Line-up against high power teams (Penguins)

Gagne-Richards-Giroux (Crosby Shutdown line)
Hartnell-Carter- Pyorala (Malkin Shutdown line)
Carcillo - Powe - Briere (Some combination for Staal line)
Lapperiere-Kalinski-Asham


Standard Defense

Timonen-Coburn
Pronger-Carle
Parent-Jones

High Power team defense (Penguins)

Timonen-Coburn (Crosby line)
Pronger-Parent (Malkin line)
Carle-Jones



1st PK:

Gagne-Richards
Timonen-Pronger

Plug ins: Laperriere, Powe, Giroux, Carle

2nd PK:

Hartnell-Carter
Coburn-Parent

Plug ins: Laperriere, Powe, Giroux, Carle

1st PP:

Gagne-Richards-Briere
Timonen-Pronger

2nd PP:

Hartnell-Carter- Giroux
Coburn-Carle


1st 4 on 4:

Gagne-Richards
Timonen-Coburn

2nd 4 on 4:
Hartnell-Carter
Pronger-Carle

2 Man PK:

Gagne-Richards
Pronger

Hartnell-Carter
Timonen



Those lines are completely acceptable and perfectly capable of winning a cup.

We also must be careful of plugging in secondary PKers into are lineup. Lapperiere, Powe , Giroux, and Carle all must get powerplay time to keep our main stars fresh.
Where is Gagne in the 'standard' line up? Also that first PP unit would pretty much be ineffective in getting puck control. Who goes into the corner and who sets up in front?

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Old
07-25-2009, 02:22 PM
  #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
So basically in a stacked 2 line scenario we'd have this:

Richards line matched up against Crosby's line (our choice and we change on the fly if needed)

Carters line matched up against Staals line (the Pens choice and THEY change on the fly if neccessary, just watch the playoffs last year and that's who Carter saw almost every shift)

That leaves us with a line of Carcillo-Powe-Lappy to go up against Malkins line??? Yeah, I don't think I EVER want to see that happen. Not only would that line get eaten alive by Malkins line but they offer absolutely no scoring threat themselves to offset the scoring of Malkins line.
I agree with you in that we ought to run the three pairs. I think I phrased my previous post poorly though. I meant Briere isn't going to kill Richards's line like many people suggest. What it does to the rest of the lineup is a different matter.

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Old
07-25-2009, 04:00 PM
  #403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I agree with you in that we ought to run the three pairs. I think I phrased my previous post poorly though. I meant Briere isn't going to kill Richards's line like many people suggest. What it does to the rest of the lineup is a different matter.
Having forward depth, although not as great as last year, where Giroux and Briere can be paired on the third line or be on the Top 2 lines, offers us a lot of options and hopefully Stevens can take advantage of our strength. This is a good issue to be having and therefore debating, we shall see how it pans out in Training Camp.

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Old
07-25-2009, 07:42 PM
  #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I agree with you in that we ought to run the three pairs. I think I phrased my previous post poorly though. I meant Briere isn't going to kill Richards's line like many people suggest. What it does to the rest of the lineup is a different matter.
I really wasn't intending that post to be directed at you, I understood where you stand on this issue. I was just using your post to illustrate to others what our 3rd line would look like and who they would likely be going up against. I'm soory if it seemed like it was directed at you, it was not my intent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
Having forward depth, although not as great as last year, where Giroux and Briere can be paired on the third line or be on the Top 2 lines, offers us a lot of options and hopefully Stevens can take advantage of our strength. This is a good issue to be having and therefore debating, we shall see how it pans out in Training Camp.
I agree. We may not be as strong in our top 9 as we were last year but remember this, we didn't have Briere for MOST of the year last year and we only had Giroux for half the year. They should EASILY cover the production that Knuble and Lupul gave us through the first half of last year. What we NEED is to make certain that we have 1 or 2 guys who can become key offensive parts in the 2nd half of the season this year much like what Giroux and the return of Brier gave us last year. I'm hoping that one of the new guys we signed and/or JVR make a good 2nd half showing next year and that we'll end up with a top 9 even better than what we had last year. It probably shouldn't be too hard, a full year of Giroux and Briere SHOULD net us about 150% of the production we saw from Lupul and Knuble last year.

Again, we have changed out 1/3rd of our top 9 from the start of last year to this year, Knuble, Lupul and Upshall. That's honestly a LOT of change in the top 9. It might take the new guys a full month or 2 to really develop some chemestry with the current guys so we MAY see our top 6 loaded up at the beginning of the season. However, I definitely think that by December we will see the "pairs" we've discussed split between 3 lines. I will give Stevens one thinkg, he's at least shown the smarts to do this with his lineup in the past. I think protecting Richards lie is the most important thing at this point. You can't put someone on his line who isn't on the same page as Gagne and Richards and expect them to shut down the other teams top line. I think that Stevens will tinker with the lines for the first 6 weeks or so of the season to see who works well with whom and that then we should see 3 solid lines that work well together.

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Old
07-25-2009, 08:26 PM
  #405
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In the comment section of Bill Meltzer's most recent post he stated this about Pyorala:

"Pyorala does have a legit shot at a checking line role on the NHL club. He is similar to Thoresen in a lot of ways. He's actually got less offensive pedigree than Thoresen -- who has been a scorer everywhere but in the NHL, where he couldn't put a puck in the ocean."

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Old
07-25-2009, 11:30 PM
  #406
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gagne-richards-briere
hartnell-carter-giroux
carcillo-lappy-pyorala
kaspar-powe-asham

i don't know about next year, but this set up is working for me in nhl 09

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Old
07-27-2009, 12:47 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
Good point for sure, it will almost never be Briere up high, but hockey is a game of capitalizing on mistakes and Top Lines will literally dominate Briere, even with Richards and Gagne back-checking hard. It is so difficult to recover when you are not positionally sound.

I guess when you think about the chances of Briere being caught defending World Class Players and Briere using his offensive prowess as his defense, Briere on Richards wing would not be as big of a deal myself and others stated. However, it is still something for Stevens and Homer to think about when trying to get the right blend of players on each of the lines.
Hate to be a broken record, but can someone please tell me why this was never an issue for Briere before he got here and started playing for the worst even strength team in the league????

I still say with better coaching, and better even strength play, he is fine....

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Old
07-27-2009, 12:47 PM
  #408
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Gagne-Richards-Briere
Hartnell-Carter-Giroux
JVR-Lappy-Pyorala
Carcillo-Powe-Asham

I have this feeling (as much as I dont want to see it) that JVR will make the big club this year out of camp. I feel like they believe he can do it, and that he is working his tail off to do it. Ideally, if he does, and even if he has a slow start, that he works on his checking and improves positionally.

IMHO, I'd rather him AHL it half a year, but I feel like Homer is counting on him making it.

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:02 PM
  #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
i cant believe some of you guys want to put Laperierre or Nodl on one of the 2 scoring lines
First of all, Nodl was drafted to be a scorer so if he develops he will be on a scoring line.....2nd of all, most of what I am seeing have Lappy with Richards in a shut down role and Finally, If this team goes with three pairings like he says (aka the old Detroit method) than you are always going to have one lesser winger on each line. With this philosophy there really arent numbered lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Ok, I just went through the numbers guys and I want to share this with you as I believe this will open up some eyes as to the nature of our team.

Last year Richards scored 80 points, 42 of them on special teams. 2 years ago he scored 75 points with 37 of them coming on special teams. Of his 221 career points, 100 of them have come on special teams. He is not and he will never be an ES scoring line center. He's a SHUTDOWN center at ES.

Gagne - last year he scored 74 points, 33 of them on special teams and 41 at ES. That's only 8 more points at ES than on special teams. 3 years ago (the last full season he played) he was NOT paired with Richards on the shutdown line and he scored 68 points, 24 on special teams and 44 at ES.

Carter - Last year he scored 84 points, 28 on special teams and 56 at ES. 2 years ago he scored 53 points, 21 on special teams and 32 at ES.

Hartnell - Last year he scored 60 points, 14 on special teams and 44 at ES. 2 years ago he scored 43 points, 14 on secial teams and 29 at ES.


Players on a scoring line don't rack up nearly half of their point totals while on special teams. Putting Gagne on Richards wing didn't make Richards a scoring line center, it made Gagne a shutdown winger. Would putting Giroux or Briere on Richards line add some scoring, sure, but not that much. His line will STILL be a shutdown line, not a scoring line. We CANNOT have Richards line as our shutdown line, Carters line as our only true ES scoring line, and a 3rd line of Carcillo-Powe-Lappy or whomever you want to throw out there just eating up minutes and basically nothing else. We MUST run a second scoring line to go along with Carters scoring line and Richards shutdown line IMO.

Maybe at the beginning of the season we don't start out that way but I think it would more be due to the new guys on the team not "meshing" with the existing players quickly enough. I believe that once we see who works well with whom that we'll see 3 lines based around the 3 "pairings" talked about in this thread. It just seems to be the most logical scenario to me.
Phlocky, I agree with you that as the team is currently constructed, we have no choice but to use Gagne/Richards up against the other team's top line....And if that is what we do, I think Lappy would be a great winger on that line.

However, I dont agree that Richards is ONLY a shut-down guy at even strengh. 1) I look at Richards as a two-way guy, not really a shut-down guy.....A true "shut-down" guy is usually bigger, or they get beat up very early in their career like Peca did....

This team is just flat out TERRIBLE at even strength, otherwise he would probably have more points at ES...Unfortunately we cant score unless we are on a damn PP....Same with Briere as I just mentioned. Everyone complains about how terrible he is defensively, and how he hurts us at even strength....When he was with Buffalo, he didnt hurt them and he scored the majority of his points at ES.....This is team issue, not an issue with these specific players. They need to stop playing pond hockey....

I am perfectly happy going with Carter/Hartnell and Giroux/Briere as my scoring lines at even strength, with whoever on their wings....However, that is contingent on the moron coach actually playing Briere at ES for more than 5 minutes....

Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
I do get your point and what you said at the end, yes that IS what I'm suggesting. It DOES concern me having Richards play so many minutes but with the way we are set up right now the only way arounf it would be to pull him off the PP and I really don't want to do that.

Unless we can build a shutdown line without Richards or Gagne that is capable of stopping Crosby I just don't see what other options we have available. Crosby is going to log a ton of ES minutes so Richards has to match that number. Richards and Gagne are our 2 best forwards on the PK so they MUST be the #1 PK unit. that's going to be a lot of minutes right there. I'd seriously consider making Carters unit the #1 PP unit and dropping Richards and Gagne down to the #2 PP until to try and lessen their minutes that way. I'd also look to limit their TOI in games where we AREN'T facing some of the elite talent in the world (I think we can get away with it against teams like the Devs, Rags, Isles, Buff, Mont, Fla, and some others). Even if we put Briere or Giroux with Richards we are still going to have him on the ice for a lot of minutes.

We are a team built around Mike Richards, not Jeff Carter, Briere or Gagne. Richards is the cener of our team and the player we will rely on the most in every situation. IMO we alreay place too great a burdon on him and I think it shows by the end of the season. I'd hate to heap even more of a burdon on his shoulders by expecting him to carry a huge portion of the offense too. I would much rather give him a break on the PP if that's what it came down to. I think the best thing that can happen for him is for the rest of th team to pick up their game and guys like Giroux and Briere become a true scoring line much like Carters line did last year. That will cause fits for the other team and take some of the burdon off Richards shoulders.
Agreed again...Richards is the guy we build around and that is fine....I think we need to limit his time at even strength to be honest (when we can match him up) it obviously isnt going to happen every game.

Also, Richards needs to learn how to preserve himself for an entire season and pick his spots...

Again though, this is all contingent on the coach playing Briere more at even strength.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Gagne-Richards-Briere
Hartnell-Carter-Giroux
JVR-Lappy-Pyorala
Carcillo-Powe-Asham

I have this feeling (as much as I dont want to see it) that JVR will make the big club this year out of camp. I feel like they believe he can do it, and that he is working his tail off to do it. Ideally, if he does, and even if he has a slow start, that he works on his checking and improves positionally.

IMHO, I'd rather him AHL it half a year, but I feel like Homer is counting on him making it.
I rather him be in the AHL as well, but if he does make it, I want to see him with Carter and Hartnell

I am going under the assumption of 3 pairings

Powe/Carcillo Giroux Briere
JVR Carter Hartnell
Gagne Richards Lappy

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:05 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
First of all, Nodl was drafted to be a scorer so if he develops he will be on a scoring line.....2nd of all, most of what I am seeing have Lappy with Richards in a shut down role and Finally, If this team goes with three pairings like he says (aka the old Detroit method) than you are always going to have one lesser winger on each line. With this philosophy there really arent numbered lines.



Phlocky, I agree with you that as the team is currently constructed, we have no choice but to use Gagne/Richards up against the other team's top line....And if that is what we do, I think Lappy would be a great winger on that line.

However, I dont agree that Richards is ONLY a shut-down guy at even strengh. 1) I look at Richards as a two-way guy, not really a shut-down guy.....A true "shut-down" guy is usually bigger, or they get beat up very early in their career like Peca did....

This team is just flat out TERRIBLE at even strength, otherwise he would probably have more points at ES...Unfortunately we cant score unless we are on a damn PP....Same with Briere as I just mentioned. Everyone complains about how terrible he is defensively, and how he hurts us at even strength....When he was with Buffalo, he didnt hurt them and he scored the majority of his points at ES.....This is team issue, not an issue with these specific players. They need to stop playing pond hockey....

I am perfectly happy going with Carter/Hartnell and Giroux/Briere as my scoring lines at even strength, with whoever on their wings....However, that is contingent on the moron coach actually playing Briere at ES for more than 5 minutes....



Agreed again...Richards is the guy we build around and that is fine....I think we need to limit his time at even strength to be honest (when we can match him up) it obviously isnt going to happen every game.

Also, Richards needs to learn how to preserve himself for an entire season and pick his spots...

Again though, this is all contingent on the coach playing Briere more at even strength.



I rather him be in the AHL as well, but if he does make it, I want to see him with Carter and Hartnell

I am going under the assumption of 3 pairings

Powe/Carcillo Giroux Briere
JVR Carter Hartnell
Gagne Richards Lappy
Gagne-Richards-Lappy (poor mans Knuble? hahah)
JVR-Carter-Hartnell
Pyorala-Giroux-Briere
Carcillo-Powe-Asham

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:13 PM
  #411
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Hmmm, If JVR does make it, and say one of the new guys we signed for does well (I have high hopes for Pyorala and Kaspar), I think this line could work.

Gagne-Richards-JVR
Hartnell-Carter-Kaspar
Pyorala-Giroux-Briere
Lappy-Powe-Asham

13th Carcillo

That is if we roll with the pairing method... I am not a big fan of having BOTH Lappy and Carcillo in the top 9 when rolling pairs.

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:18 PM
  #412
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That "pairing" method is ridiculously easy to defend against. Thats pure John Stevens right there.

Having Powe, Pyorala, Kaspar or Lapierre in the top 6 will only decrease that line's production.

edit: 2 scoring lines, 2 "grinder" lines is what we'll end up with(2 scoring, 1 checking and 1 grinder... dont really have the pieces to make a decent checking line though). That is if JVR does not make the team out of camp. I think 3 offensive lines with him in the lineup if much more feasible.

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:19 PM
  #413
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Carle
Hartnell
Maroon
(8.2M)


for

Stempniak
Ponikarovsky
Kaberle
(8.8M)

Gagne - Richards - Briere
Ponikarovsky - Carter - Giroux
Stempniak - Laperriere - Asham
Cote - Powe - Carcillo

Pronger - Kaberle
Timonen - Coburn
Parent - Jones

Emery

That looks like a way better team to me getting 2 top 9 forwards for 1 top 6 forward and then upgrading from Carle to Kaberle.

Hartnell - Stajan - Blake
Kulemin - Grabovski - Tlusty
Hagman - Wallin - Hanson
Orr - Mitchell - Mayers

Beauchemin - Komisarek
Schenn - Carle
White - Finger/Van Ryn

Toskala
Gustavsson

Looks like a better leafs team too.

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:20 PM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Gagne-Richards-Lappy (poor mans Knuble? hahah)
JVR-Carter-Hartnell
Pyorala-Giroux-Briere
Carcillo-Powe-Asham
I listed Richards as the "3rd" basically just cause they are getting the shut down role....The other two are pure offense.

I have some issues with the size on the Giroux line.....I would like to see Kaspar or Carcillo fit there to be honest...Powe was good there last year, but who the hell plays center on the 4th line if Powe is a winger in the top 9? Its obvious we are not going to get someone like Malhotra, but can we get a cheaper guy that can win a damn faceoff??? How about Goc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viller View Post
That "pairing" method is ridiculously easy to defend against. Thats pure John Stevens right there.

Having Powe, Pyorala or Lapierre in the top 6 will only decrease that line's production.
Detroit has done it a lot and won with it....Difference between them and us was that they had an actual system for the lesser talented guys to fall back on.

I dont agree with it either, but we kinda have to since we are carrying a couple dman we dont need and have no money to get a legit 3rd line forward in here.

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:22 PM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffleafsfan91 View Post
Carle
Hartnell
Maroon
(8.2M)


for

Stempniak
Ponikarovsky
Kaberle
(8.8M)

Gagne - Richards - Briere
Ponikarovsky - Carter - Giroux
Stempniak - Laperriere - Asham
Cote - Powe - Carcillo

Pronger - Kaberle
Timonen - Coburn
Parent - Jones

Emery

That looks like a way better team to me getting 2 top 9 forwards for 1 top 6 forward and then upgrading from Carle to Kaberle.

Hartnell - Stajan - Blake
Kulemin - Grabovski - Tlusty
Hagman - Wallin - Hanson
Orr - Mitchell - Mayers

Beauchemin - Komisarek
Schenn - Carle
White - Finger/Van Ryn

Toskala
Gustavsson

Looks like a better leafs team too.
You mother ****ers just NEVER quit with your bull **** do you?

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:22 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Hate to be a broken record, but can someone please tell me why this was never an issue for Briere before he got here and started playing for the worst even strength team in the league????

I still say with better coaching, and better even strength play, he is fine....

It is true that the Flyers have been one of the worst even strength teams, but because our special teams had a +19 goal differential PP to PK (we only gave up one Shorty and it was in the last game of the year), we were able to afford being subpar at even strength. Briere is a powerplay specialist, so his plus minus stats are heavily skewed toward negative values at even strength.

In Phoenix and Buffalo, in 2002-2003 Briere had 4 of his 17 goals on the powerplay and was a -17 (in 68 games). Two years later, he had 11 of his 28 goals on the PP and was a -7. In Briere's first year with the Flyers, he was a -22 despite scoring 17 even strength goals which supports your claim of having a major drop once under Stevens.

In Danny's final year with Buffalo, he was +17 with 9 PP goals, which gives the Flyers good reason to hope he can revert back to that form. However, Stevens is still our coach and seems to be in Homer's plans for a while, so it is unfair to imagine what Danny could do under a different coach or system. Here's to Danny proving us wrong and being a valuable ES asset!

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07-27-2009, 01:28 PM
  #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffleafsfan91 View Post
Carle
Hartnell
Maroon
(8.2M)


for

Stempniak
Ponikarovsky
Kaberle
(8.8M)

Gagne - Richards - Briere
Ponikarovsky - Carter - Giroux
Stempniak - Laperriere - Asham
Cote - Powe - Carcillo

Pronger - Kaberle
Timonen - Coburn
Parent - Jones

Emery

....bs...bs...bs...bs
Thanks for making our team look ******.... Yes.. you are right. We just got Pronger but WE DEFINITLY need Kaberle. Its not like our defense is already stacked and our offense is a mess.

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:45 PM
  #418
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I still believe the pairs will work. I really think powe will be a decent player on a fast line too. He played very well with briere and giroux at the end of last year. Allthough the points wern't on the board, he created allot of space for the other two.

Gagne - Giroux - Briere / solid offensive line
Hartnell - Carter - Powe/afinigenov /solid two way line
Pyro - Richards - Lappy / very good shutdown and checking line.
Asham - kalinski/Goc/kolanos - Carcillo / Very strong energy line

JVR and maroon stay in the phantoms till they are ready. I think that would cause allot of teams problems

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Old
07-27-2009, 01:55 PM
  #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97FlyersKing18 View Post
It is true that the Flyers have been one of the worst even strength teams, but because our special teams had a +19 goal differential PP to PK (we only gave up one Shorty and it was in the last game of the year), we were able to afford being subpar at even strength. Briere is a powerplay specialist, so his plus minus stats are heavily skewed toward negative values at even strength.

In Phoenix and Buffalo, in 2002-2003 Briere had 4 of his 17 goals on the powerplay and was a -17 (in 68 games). Two years later, he had 11 of his 28 goals on the PP and was a -7. In Briere's first year with the Flyers, he was a -22 despite scoring 17 even strength goals which supports your claim of having a major drop once under Stevens.

In Danny's final year with Buffalo, he was +17 with 9 PP goals, which gives the Flyers good reason to hope he can revert back to that form. However, Stevens is still our coach and seems to be in Homer's plans for a while, so it is unfair to imagine what Danny could do under a different coach or system. Here's to Danny proving us wrong and being a valuable ES asset!
Correct....And I dont have the numbers in front of me at the moment...but his 90+ point year in Buffalo, I believe the majority of his points were ES and he was near the top in the league in that category.....He is obviously never going to be Gagne or Richards, but it isnt like the guy has been incompetent at ES his whole career, it was once he got here.....Cause the team in general is bad at ES. Playing on the RW, with Giroux who is potentially a stud defensive player, and a grinder with some defensive skills on the other wing he would be perfectly fine if we have a better system in place.

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07-27-2009, 02:32 PM
  #420
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Correct....And I dont have the numbers in front of me at the moment...but his 90+ point year in Buffalo, I believe the majority of his points were ES and he was near the top in the league in that category.....He is obviously never going to be Gagne or Richards, but it isnt like the guy has been incompetent at ES his whole career, it was once he got here.....Cause the team in general is bad at ES. Playing on the RW, with Giroux who is potentially a stud defensive player, and a grinder with some defensive skills on the other wing he would be perfectly fine if we have a better system in place.
I like Briere, but he definitely has struggled at even strength for the majority of his career. The one great even strength year Briere had in Buffalo was an exception to Briere's regular even strength play, not proof that he can be consistently good at even strength.

Briere was waived from a sub-par Coyotes team, in part, because of his horrible defensive zone play and his lazy back-checking. His being moved to the wing mutes his defensive deficiencies, a sign that his defensive game hasn't improved sufficiently over the years.

'Better system' or not, Briere will have to work much harder to be a responsible defensive player.... if he wants to. I just take him for what he is: a one-dimensional, high-end offensive talent. Not everyone can be a great two-way player.

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07-27-2009, 03:49 PM
  #421
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I guess I'm one of the few that actually hopes that JVR is ready for the NHL out of camp. I used to want him to play half the season in the AHL just like Giroux did last year but honestly, if Giroux HADDEN'T just had his wisdom teeth pulled right before training camp (or was it during camp) then he probably would have made the teamat the beginning of the season. I think that JVR is just as ready, it's just a "feel" I'm getting from some of the reports I've been seeing.

I think a very good case could be made for pairing JVR with either Carter or Richards. With Carter, JVR would be a solid playmaking winger and a goal scorer who could easily replace what Lupul brought to that line last year. He shouldn't really hurt Carters scoring ability even if he's trailing the play a lot because Carter really just plays with himself and his line mates are better served to NOT get in his way.

I actually think I'd like to see him paired with Richards though. JVR is pretty solid defensively but solid defensively in college/juniors is different than being solid defensively in the NHL. I think he could learn a LOT from being forced to work with Gagne and Richards on a defensive first line (again, not really just a shutdown line but a solid 2-way line that concentrates on stopping the other teams top line first). I think that JVR could become a very good 2-way forward much like Gagne.

Again, if JVR ISN'T ready then I'm fine with him spending part/all of the season in the AHL. However, if he IS ready then I'm perfectly fine with him "learning on the job" in the NHL.

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07-27-2009, 03:56 PM
  #422
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Regarding the Leafs trade proposal, it's not terrible but we simply don't "need" to make another move to upgrade our top 4 any further. JVR >= Step right now so that's not really and upgrade on the 3rd line and Hartnell >>> Poni (for what WE need) on the 2nd line. Timonen > Kaberle, Pronger >>>> Kaberle. Coburn <= Kaberle and though Carle << Kaberle, we really don't "need" Kaberle in any way. He's not better on the PP than Pronger and he's not really any better than Timonen either. Timonens numbers dropped because of the "system" our coach uses so we can expect Prongers numbers to drop AND Kaberles numbers would drop here too.


Though Kaberle would be an upgrade to our defense, we are not just T Kaberle away from winning the cup. Also, the lost of Hartnell would be a bigger loss than the gain from adding Kaberle. The Flyers respectfully decline.

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07-27-2009, 04:26 PM
  #423
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First of all, Nodl was drafted to be a scorer so if he develops he will be on a scoring line.....2nd of all, most of what I am seeing have Lappy with Richards in a shut down role and Finally, If this team goes with three pairings like he says (aka the old Detroit method) than you are always going to have one lesser winger on each line. With this philosophy there really arent numbered lines.



Phlocky, I agree with you that as the team is currently constructed, we have no choice but to use Gagne/Richards up against the other team's top line....And if that is what we do, I think Lappy would be a great winger on that line.

However, I dont agree that Richards is ONLY a shut-down guy at even strengh. 1) I look at Richards as a two-way guy, not really a shut-down guy.....A true "shut-down" guy is usually bigger, or they get beat up very early in their career like Peca did....

This team is just flat out TERRIBLE at even strength, otherwise he would probably have more points at ES...Unfortunately we cant score unless we are on a damn PP....Same with Briere as I just mentioned. Everyone complains about how terrible he is defensively, and how he hurts us at even strength....When he was with Buffalo, he didnt hurt them and he scored the majority of his points at ES.....This is team issue, not an issue with these specific players. They need to stop playing pond hockey....
That's a good point, I wasn't aware of that.

To add to this Briere according to the NHL's stats had the second highest amount of time on ice of forwards behind Danius Zubrus on the Buffalo in team in 06-07 with an average of 14:15 per game.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce


Last edited by ilovetheflyers8: 07-27-2009 at 04:37 PM.
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07-27-2009, 06:42 PM
  #424
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Carle
Hartnell
Maroon
(8.2M)


for

Stempniak
Ponikarovsky
Kaberle
(8.8M)

Gagne - Richards - Briere
Ponikarovsky - Carter - Giroux
Stempniak - Laperriere - Asham
Cote - Powe - Carcillo

Pronger - Kaberle
Timonen - Coburn
Parent - Jones

Emery

That looks like a way better team to me getting 2 top 9 forwards for 1 top 6 forward and then upgrading from Carle to Kaberle.

Hartnell - Stajan - Blake
Kulemin - Grabovski - Tlusty
Hagman - Wallin - Hanson
Orr - Mitchell - Mayers

Beauchemin - Komisarek
Schenn - Carle
White - Finger/Van Ryn

Toskala
Gustavsson

Looks like a better leafs team too.
Stempniak and Poni top 6 fowards in Philly? Even if Hartnell is dealt, thats not even close to being true(with our current roster, theyd never get top 6 ice time, well maybe some spot work for Ponikarovsky). Ive only seen Stempniak play in toronto, so my judgement of him might be skewed... Poni is hardly a top 6 foward, I rather have JVR right out of camp in the lineup than deal Hartnell for those 2.

We could get something much much better from L.A. if we wanted to deal Hartnell.

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07-27-2009, 06:59 PM
  #425
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I love this new thing we have going on here. A couple of years ago, everyone was complaining, myself included, that the powerplay sucked, and we needed to get better.

Now that we are better though, we gave up some good strategies for even strength. We got what we wanted; a good powerplay. Now we just need to get a good coach who can teach them how to play even strength.

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