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Eklund: "Flyers working a deal with Kings"

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Old
06-22-2009, 12:54 PM
  #376
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Also you look at teams in the past that have blown and then gotten a lot better after an addition of a dmen, either from the system, trade, or FA. Hell, we wouldnt have made such a wild transition if we had gotten another fwd FA and not Timonen.

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06-22-2009, 01:03 PM
  #377
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Yup, I agree, from cup winners in the past there is a common theme. Great dmen, or a great goalie performance or both. The pens dont have any great dmen, but they have a very good goalie and 2/3 best players in the world that are young and healthy.
Do you even know who Sergei Gonchar is?

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06-22-2009, 01:34 PM
  #378
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Do you even know who Sergei Gonchar is?
Seems my previous reply was too confrontational haha. Yes, I know who he is. This year he is a still recovering major surgery patient that didnt exactly win the cup for the pens. If you look at value wise, you wouldnt trade Timonen for Gonchar straight up. And outside of philly fans im not sure that everyone thinks Timo is a great dman. When I am talking great dmen, im talking about the guys that have won the cups recently in Lidstrom, Pronger, Nieds, Stevens, Borque.

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06-22-2009, 01:50 PM
  #379
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Also you look at teams in the past that have blown and then gotten a lot better after an addition of a dmen, either from the system, trade, or FA. Hell, we wouldnt have made such a wild transition if we had gotten another fwd FA and not Timonen.
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
Do you even know who Sergei Gonchar is?
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
Seems my previous reply was too confrontational haha. Yes, I know who he is. This year he is a still recovering major surgery patient that didnt exactly win the cup for the pens. If you look at value wise, you wouldnt trade Timonen for Gonchar straight up. And outside of philly fans im not sure that everyone thinks Timo is a great dman. When I am talking great dmen, im talking about the guys that have won the cups recently in Lidstrom, Pronger, Nieds, Stevens, Borque, Gonchar, Rafalski
fixed that last one for you

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06-22-2009, 01:53 PM
  #380
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Seems my previous reply was too confrontational haha. Yes, I know who he is. This year he is a still recovering major surgery patient that didnt exactly win the cup for the pens. If you look at value wise, you wouldnt trade Timonen for Gonchar straight up. And outside of philly fans im not sure that everyone thinks Timo is a great dman. When I am talking great dmen, im talking about the guys that have won the cups recently in Lidstrom, Pronger, Nieds, Stevens, Borque.
Meaning Timonen is better then Gonchar or Gonchar is better then Timonen?

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06-22-2009, 01:55 PM
  #381
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Sounds like he's saying Timonen is better than Gonchar.

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06-22-2009, 02:10 PM
  #382
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The latest from Eklund.

"Andrew Alberts could be headed to Florida. very good d-man..."

... and there you go, all the respect has gone out the window. Haha.

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06-22-2009, 02:24 PM
  #383
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The latest from Eklund.

"Andrew Alberts could be headed to Florida. very good d-man..."

... and there you go, all the respect has gone out the window. Haha.
This may sound extremely stupid because I'm actually basing it off of 2 Eklund rumors, but does anyone think it's possible we ship Alberts rights + a player (hopefully not, but probably Lupul) for JBo's rights?

Makes sense, we shed enough cap space to sign JBo.

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06-22-2009, 02:24 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Meaning Timonen is better then Gonchar or Gonchar is better then Timonen?
timonen better than gonchar.

and as far as adding Goncahr to my list of great dmen, thats just insulting.

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06-22-2009, 02:31 PM
  #385
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This may sound extremely stupid because I'm actually basing it off of 2 Eklund rumors, but does anyone think it's possible we ship Alberts rights + a player (hopefully not, but probably Lupul) for JBo's rights?

Makes sense, we shed enough cap space to sign JBo.
I don't think Alberts' rights have any trade value whatsoever...but, who knows.

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timonen better than gonchar.

and as far as adding Goncahr to my list of great dmen, thats just insulting.
Gonchar is one of the best offensive defenseman of the last 15 years (if not the best). He's better than a .5 ppg player from the blue line. While he is far from an elite, or really even "good" defenseman defensively, he can hold his own and his struggles are greatly exaggerated.

He hasn't been below 50 pts in a NHL season since 1999, when he scored 31 in 53 games. This past year he had 19 in 25 games.

It is no accident that the Pens season picked up upon his arrival...and there is no question that Gonchar is a "great dman." He's a game changer from the back end, and there aren't that many of 'em.

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06-22-2009, 02:32 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Quacker912 View Post
This may sound extremely stupid because I'm actually basing it off of 2 Eklund rumors, but does anyone think it's possible we ship Alberts rights + a player (hopefully not, but probably Lupul) for JBo's rights?

Makes sense, we shed enough cap space to sign JBo.
I would do that in a SECOND! Florida however, probably would not.

I bet Lupul would LOVE Florida. Sun, sand, women. He can sit on the beach and play with his stupid guitar. Sounds great for him.

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timonen better than gonchar.

and as far as adding Goncahr to my list of great dmen, thats just insulting.
Why? Gonchar is an awesome player, and he makes things happen on the PP. What do you have against Gonchar?

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06-22-2009, 02:34 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I don't think Alberts' rights have any trade value whatsoever...but, who knows.



Gonchar is one of the best offensive defenseman of the last 15 years (if not the best). He's better than a .5 ppg player from the blue line. While he is far from an elite, or really even "good" defenseman, he can hold his own and his struggles are greatly exaggerated.

He hasn't been below 50 pts in a NHL season since 1999, when he scored 31 in 53 games. This past year he had 19 in 25 games.

It is no accident that the Pens season picked up upon his arrival...and there is no question that Gonchar is a "great dman." He's a game changer from the back end, and there aren't that many of 'em.
Nicklas Lidstrom says hi.

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06-22-2009, 02:38 PM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I don't think Alberts' rights have any trade value whatsoever...but, who knows.



Gonchar is one of the best offensive defenseman of the last 15 years (if not the best). He's better than a .5 ppg player from the blue line. While he is far from an elite, or really even "good" defenseman defensively, he can hold his own and his struggles are greatly exaggerated.

He hasn't been below 50 pts in a NHL season since 1999, when he scored 31 in 53 games. This past year he had 19 in 25 games.

It is no accident that the Pens season picked up upon his arrival...and there is no question that Gonchar is a "great dman." He's a game changer from the back end, and there aren't that many of 'em.
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I would do that in a SECOND! Florida however, probably would not.

I bet Lupul would LOVE Florida. Sun, sand, women. He can sit on the beach and play with his stupid guitar. Sounds great for him.



Why? Gonchar is an awesome player, and he makes things happen on the PP. What do you have against Gonchar?
He puts up points, and he is a + back there. But I dont consider him a great Dman, in the same way that I will never consider Green a great dman. I dont think that he himself, this past year, lead the pens to win the cup, in the way that the other guys i listed did.

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06-22-2009, 02:40 PM
  #389
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Nicklas Lidstrom says hi.
Nicklas Lidstrom's teams say hi, too. I think you could have an interesting debate about the offensive merits of the two, it's likely closer than most people realize. Lidstrom is light years better defensively, however. Lidstrom is a .75 ppg player over the course of his career, and Gonchar is a paltry .68 ppg player over the course of his career. Lidstrom is .17 gpg, and Gonchar is .21 gpg.

As said...there is some lack of appreciation for just how good Gonchar is offensively, and his defensive problems get far too much attention.

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He puts up points, and he is a + back there. But I dont consider him a great Dman, in the same way that I will never consider Green a great dman. I dont think that he himself, this past year, lead the pens to win the cup, in the way that the other guys i listed did.
Green is a well below average defender right now...whereas Gonchar is average at worst. They aren't really comparable at this moment in time. If Green develops his defensive game, he's going to be one of the best all around players in the league.

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06-22-2009, 03:00 PM
  #390
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That's a big if though.

Part of Green's problem is that he looks for the offensive opportunity by pinching like a MoFo. He puts up points but also sacrifices goals in order to be as low as a forward sometimes.

I like Green a lot though. He makes the game FUN. That's the reason I love the sport. Sure if he was a Flyer I'd ***** and moan, but he is fun to watch.

The purists will complain about style, but I also enjoy being entertained when I watch. It is still a game afterall.

EDIT: Also, the problem with discounting Lidstrom's numbers because of his team is silly. I know how a good or even a bad team can help or hurt a players stats, but in the same way, you can try to make an argument against Martin Brodeur for playing behind one of the most defense-first teams in the league.

I personally think Lidstrom and Brodeur are still worlds beyond anyone else. While their system might be perfect for their playing style, they still showed night after night why they will no doubt be Hall Of Famers. It is well earned.


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06-22-2009, 03:08 PM
  #391
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That's a big if though.

Part of Green's problem is that he looks for the offensive opportunity by pinching like a MoFo. He puts up points but also sacrifices goals in order to be as low as a forward sometimes.

I like Green a lot though. He makes the game FUN. That's the reason I love the sport. Sure if he was a Flyer I'd ***** and moan, but he is fun to watch.

The purists will complain about style, but I also enjoy being entertained when I watch. It is still a game afterall.
It's not that big of an if, most young D...particularly the guys that all throughout their development were carrying their teams offensively...need some time to adjust to actually having to play D at this level -- look at Pitkanen, for example.

Personally, I think Green's real problem is that he just doesn't much like playing D...and therefore isn't all that good at it. Don't know if that will ever change, as there are certainly examples of guys of that ilk that just never learned. However, it's misguided to make rigid statements about never considering Green a "great defenseman" at this point, because if he learns to play D "adequately" he will not only be a "great defenseman," but one of the best overall players in the sport.

What makes Scott Niedermayer great is that he has always struck this balance. Especially when he was younger, he was more than good enough to score at the rate we've seen Green go...but he sacrificed some of that to be an elite defenseman with a two-way game.

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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
EDIT: Also, the problem with discounting Lidstrom's numbers because of his team is silly. I know how a good or even a bad team can help or hurt a players stats, but in the same way, you can try to make an argument against Martin Brodeur for playing behind one of the most defense-first teams in the league.

I personally think Lidstrom and Brodeur are still worlds beyond anyone else. While their system might be perfect for their playing style, they still showed night after night why they will no doubt be Hall Of Famers. It is well earned.
See, these are not one and the same. There are a LOT of secondary assists floating around on that Detroit Red Wings squad that are not available to other players...particularly for D, who make one pass and then two other guys make a nice rush that leads to a goal. The thing about point totals, especially assists, is that they depend on others to accumulate.

Martin Brodeur would not have the number of wins he does without the guys surrounding him...his GAA would be higher without the guys and system surrounding him...doesn't mean he wouldn't be an elite goalie, as I'm firmly of the belief that SVPCT is largely in a goalies hands, but you simply can't ignore the fact that a guy plays on a better team than another guy when looking at stat totals, that's important context.

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06-22-2009, 06:07 PM
  #392
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It's not that big of an if, most young D...particularly the guys that all throughout their development were carrying their teams offensively...need some time to adjust to actually having to play D at this level -- look at Pitkanen, for example.

Personally, I think Green's real problem is that he just doesn't much like playing D...and therefore isn't all that good at it. Don't know if that will ever change, as there are certainly examples of guys of that ilk that just never learned. However, it's misguided to make rigid statements about never considering Green a "great defenseman" at this point, because if he learns to play D "adequately" he will not only be a "great defenseman," but one of the best overall players in the sport.

What makes Scott Niedermayer great is that he has always struck this balance. Especially when he was younger, he was more than good enough to score at the rate we've seen Green go...but he sacrificed some of that to be an elite defenseman with a two-way game.



See, these are not one and the same. There are a LOT of secondary assists floating around on that Detroit Red Wings squad that are not available to other players...particularly for D, who make one pass and then two other guys make a nice rush that leads to a goal. The thing about point totals, especially assists, is that they depend on others to accumulate.

Martin Brodeur would not have the number of wins he does without the guys surrounding him...his GAA would be higher without the guys and system surrounding him...doesn't mean he wouldn't be an elite goalie, as I'm firmly of the belief that SVPCT is largely in a goalies hands, but you simply can't ignore the fact that a guy plays on a better team than another guy when looking at stat totals, that's important context.
I think your correct in that Green doesnt like playing defense. He sees himself as part of the rush when any of the big three there have the puck. And thats fine, its when he is already in his own end, after a faceoff loss etc, that he cant play defense. Look at what we did to him in our series against them. It was pretty telling, he lit us up and we lit him up.

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06-22-2009, 07:04 PM
  #393
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From another forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillyfan15

Ok this is no lie. I was listening to 610 the other day and they were talking about the flyers could possibly be in a three team trade involving the Flyers, Kings, and the Flames. We would send Hartnell, the 21st pick, and a prospect (probably Nodl) to LA, Calgary would get the 5th pick and one of LA's prospect. And the Flyers get Dion Phanuef. Then Calgary would probably trade the 5th pick for Jbo's rights and sign him before he hits the market. They like Jbo better than Phaneuf and Calgary was one of Jbo's top choices anyway.

Sort of makes sense. Rumor is Kings like Hartnell a lot. I'd HATE to see him go.

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06-22-2009, 07:13 PM
  #394
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From another forum:



Sort of makes sense. Rumor is Kings like Hartnell a lot. I'd HATE to see him go.
The panthers would be VERY happy yo get the 5th overall pick for just his rights. Also, cap wise I dont see this working to well. He himself has a cap hit of 6.5. We would have to make several more trades anyhow. Id rather have JBo than Dion.

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06-22-2009, 07:17 PM
  #395
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im 50-50 with being ok with that trade

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06-22-2009, 07:29 PM
  #396
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The panthers would be VERY happy yo get the 5th overall pick for just his rights. Also, cap wise I dont see this working to well. He himself has a cap hit of 6.5. We would have to make several more trades anyhow. Id rather have JBo than Dion.
Hartnell has a NTC... Not a small hurdle.

I see the 5th OA pick as excessive for the rights... They still would have to give him enough money to keep him from testing the Market, and a #5 in addition to everything else they lost in the three-way to me is way too much to give up for a soon to be UFA... Better to just out bid the competition, IMO.

If Florida gets any of what is rumored out there, they will have made out okay, after dropping the ball at the Trade Deadline.

This is becoming insane.


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06-22-2009, 08:08 PM
  #397
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The panthers would be VERY happy yo get the 5th overall pick for just his rights. Also, cap wise I dont see this working to well. He himself has a cap hit of 6.5. We would have to make several more trades anyhow. Id rather have JBo than Dion.
I'd much rather have Phaneuf than JBo. JBo is going to get ridiculous money and will be overpaid for years (even if he plays like a top 10 defender). Phaneuf fits this team better IMO.

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06-22-2009, 08:12 PM
  #398
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I'd much rather have Phaneuf than JBo. JBo is going to get ridiculous money and will be overpaid for years (even if he plays like a top 10 defender). Phaneuf fits this team better IMO.
J-Bo is a lot better defensively. I think we need that more than anything.

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06-22-2009, 08:19 PM
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I'd much rather have Phaneuf than JBo. JBo is going to get ridiculous money and will be overpaid for years (even if he plays like a top 10 defender). Phaneuf fits this team better IMO.
Ugh. Thinking Phaneuf would do this team more good than Bouwmeester just seems so damn typical of a lot of fans.

I don't mean to single you out, it's just frustrating to me. Bouwmeester plays his best at even strenth-- something this team sorely needs. Phaneuf plays some real good offense and throws that big hit most Flyer fans have seemingly fallen in undeniable, insatiable love with over the years. The physical presence would be great, but Bouwmeester's calming, transcending presence (I feel, at least) would be far more beneficial to the team.

And **** giving up Hartnell. Losing his presence means we're not gaining too much overall, even if getting Phaneuf.

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06-22-2009, 08:30 PM
  #400
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Ugh. Thinking Phaneuf would do this team more good than Bouwmeester just seems so damn typical of a lot of fans.

I don't mean to single you out, it's just frustrating to me. Bouwmeester plays his best at even strenth-- something this team sorely needs. Phaneuf plays some real good offense and throws that big hit most Flyer fans have seemingly fallen in undeniable, insatiable love with over the years. The physical presence would be great, but Bouwmeester's calming, transcending presence (I feel, at least) would be far more beneficial to the team.

And **** giving up Hartnell. Losing his presence means we're not gaining too much overall, even if getting Phaneuf.
I think our even strength problems need to be aided from the coaching, rather than from any one player. I would also note that outside of size, Timonen and Bouwmeester have pretty similar games.

I actually think there is something to say for Phaneuf being a better acquisition for the Flyers, as he would complement someone like Timonen a bit better than Bouwmeester would (in being something "different"). Additionally, this Flyers D desperately needs some physicality added to it, and Phaneuf brings a LOT more of that than Bouwmeester.

Phaneuf would also come at a guaranteed 6.5M, as opposed to the unknown number for Bouwmeester.

I don't really have any interest in giving up Hartnell...however, a physical D does something a forward can't really do, he makes forwards on the rush keep their head up.

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