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Who's Had The Better Career: Brodeur vs Lidstrom

View Poll Results: Who has had the better career?
Brodeur 43 50.59%
Lidstrom 42 49.41%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-16-2009, 06:01 PM
  #1
Fataldogg
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Who's Had The Better Career: Brodeur vs Lidstrom

Brodeur:
Calder Memorial Trophy
4x William M. Jennings
4x Vezina
3x Stanley Cup Champion
1x Gold Medal Olympian
557 Wins (1st All-Time)
101 Shut-Outs (2nd All-Time)

Lidstrom:
6x Norris
1x Conn Smythe
4x Stanley Cup Champion
1x Gold Medal Olympian
First European Captain to lead His team to a Stanley Cup
997 Career Points

Who has had the better career? Both are instant HOF's. My vote goes to Brodeur because I think by the time he finishes his career his records won't be touched for a long time. I also think he stands out a little bit more for Goaltenders... But that's just my opinion.

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06-16-2009, 06:22 PM
  #2
moonknight31
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i think lids has so far

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06-16-2009, 08:14 PM
  #3
Ohashi_Jouzu
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Tough call, as I think they may very well rank in similar spots in top 10 lists all-time for their position. So the question begged is, if Brodeur is deemed 5th best goalie all time, and Lidstrom 5th best defenseman all time, which one achieved more? I'm tempted to say Lidstrom, as defenders have to compete with about 180 other players each year for their award, whereas goalies have to compete with about 30. And Lidstrom ended up with the most hardware. Seems a bit simplistic thinking about it now because it totally discredits the level of competition within each position; it only considers the population.

I dunno. I'll lean toward Brodeur for the sheer fact that he will retire ranked first in a bunch of stats (and we are talking about career here, after all) AND was a superstar goalie (domestically and internationally), and wait to read a few arguments to see if they sway me the other way.

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06-16-2009, 08:23 PM
  #4
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Its too close for comfort

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06-16-2009, 08:34 PM
  #5
OrrNumber4
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It is arguable that Brodeur is the #1 goalie of all time. It is not debatable that Broduer is at worst top-7. Lidstrom is a great d-man, but he is questionable for top-5 defensemen. Also, let us not forget that Brodeur dominated and won his awards in an era that was very strong for goaltenders, while Lidstrom won his awards in an era that was notably weak in high-end defensive talent.

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06-16-2009, 08:39 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Brodeur:
Calder Memorial Trophy
4x William M. Jennings
4x Vezina
3x Stanley Cup Champion
1x Gold Medal Olympian
557 Wins (1st All-Time)
101 Shut-Outs (2nd All-Time)

Lidstrom:
6x Norris
1x Conn Smythe
4x Stanley Cup Champion
1x Gold Medal Olympian
First European Captain to lead His team to a Stanley Cup
997 Career Points
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post

Who has had the better career? Both are instant HOF's. My vote goes to Brodeur because I think by the time he finishes his career his records won't be touched for a long time. I also think he stands out a little bit more for Goaltenders... But that's just my opinion.
I think if you've done that well and made it that far, you've proven enough to yourself and you dont really need to compare yourself to others. Good for both of them for achieving all that.
But i think the really question stands, who has made more $$$$....

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06-16-2009, 08:43 PM
  #7
Oil Change
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I'm going with Brodeur on this one. I think he'll probably go down as the best goaltender ever. Lidstrom will be considered one of the best defensemen ever, but not the best.

I think Brodeur can single-handedly carry his team more so than Lidstrom.

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Old
06-16-2009, 08:47 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burke4life View Post
But i think the really question stands, who has made more $$$$....
No idea about endorsements, but Nick has made over $20M more in NHL salary.

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06-16-2009, 08:52 PM
  #9
Frozen Fiend
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There have been a lot more NHL defensemen than NHL goaltenders... one could argue that #5 defensemen = #3 goaltender.

I voted Lidstrom. (shocker) He anchored the Red Wings to 4 Stanley Cups, I am forced to vote for him.

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06-16-2009, 09:03 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Also, let us not forget that Brodeur dominated and won his awards in an era that was very strong for goaltenders, while Lidstrom won his awards in an era that was notably weak in high-end defensive talent.
Eh? Brodeur didn't win a single Vezina till Roy and Hasek retired, and Belfour was at the end of the line. I don't mean to knock the guy, but his competition hasn't been too much better than Lidstrom's. I don't think competition has been a factor either way.

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06-16-2009, 09:03 PM
  #11
OrrNumber4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozen Ice View Post
There have been a lot more NHL defensemen than NHL goaltenders... one could argue that #5 defensemen = #3 goaltender.

I voted Lidstrom. (shocker) He anchored the Red Wings to 4 Stanley Cups, I am forced to vote for him.
I take issue with this statement. Neither Lidstrom or Brodeur has anchored his team to a Stanley Cup. The closest either has come to "anchoring" a team was Brodeur his last Vezina-winning year. At all other times, these superbly talented players have been surrounded by other superbly talented players. Neither player has really had to anchor his team...

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06-16-2009, 09:12 PM
  #12
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Really good, and intriguing poll.

I went with Marty.

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06-16-2009, 09:17 PM
  #13
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I gotta go with Marty on this one, but dam is it close

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06-16-2009, 09:17 PM
  #14
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Brodeur may very well retire as the greatest goalie who ever played in the NHL.

I can't say the same for Lidstrom as a defenseman.

Both have had stellar careers, but for me the answer is Marty.

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06-16-2009, 09:21 PM
  #15
Fataldogg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Tough call, as I think they may very well rank in similar spots in top 10 lists all-time for their position. So the question begged is, if Brodeur is deemed 5th best goalie all time, and Lidstrom 5th best defenseman all time, which one achieved more? I'm tempted to say Lidstrom, as defenders have to compete with about 180 other players each year for their award, whereas goalies have to compete with about 30. And Lidstrom ended up with the most hardware. Seems a bit simplistic thinking about it now because it totally discredits the level of competition within each position; it only considers the population.
Can you not also say that since there can only be 30 starting goaltenders that the competition is even higher than a defense man to get your foot in the door? If, as you say, there are 180 defense men (which there are roughly, give or take) you can argue on the opposite side of the coin that it is easier to make it as a defense man and because there is a bigger population the talent isn't as deep. Where as you can argue that Brodeur had to make it in a tougher position.

Also, the competition between the two in which they were playing is something to be noted. Lidstrom won 6x Norris trophies (personally I think he only deserved about 4x Norris trophies but I digress) and Brodeur won 4x Vezina trophies. Lidstrom played in an era where the defensive talent wasn't exactly at its best. There weren't guys like Potvin or Orr playing. Brodeur had some of his best years when Hasek was in his prime (and we all know that Hasek's stint in his prime was probably the most impressive display of goaltending EVER). Had Hasek not been around would Brodeur had won more than 4x Vezina's? Probably. Had a defense men like Potvin or Orr been around or even Leetch, Bourque, Chelios etc in their primes in the 80's / 90's than would Lidstrom have won 6x Norris trophies? Probably not. That's not to discredit Lidstrom though. He deserves his fame.

I'm just playing Devils Advocate and trying to look at both sides of the coin.

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06-16-2009, 09:25 PM
  #16
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Brodeur is the best goaltender of all time

I dont consider Lidstrom to be the best ever

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06-16-2009, 09:26 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Can you not also say that since there can only be 30 starting goaltenders that the competition is even higher than a defense man to get your foot in the door? If, as you say, there are 180 defense men (which there are roughly, give or take) you can argue on the opposite side of the coin that it is easier to make it as a defense man and because there is a bigger population the talent isn't as deep. Where as you can argue that Brodeur had to make it in a tougher position.

Also, the competition between the two in which they were playing is something to be noted. Lidstrom won 6x Norris trophies (personally I think he only deserved about 4x Norris trophies but I digress) and Brodeur won 4x Vezina trophies. Lidstrom played in an era where the defensive talent wasn't exactly at its best. There weren't guys like Potvin or Orr playing. Brodeur had some of his best years when Hasek was in his prime (and we all know that Hasek's stint in his prime was probably the most impressive display of goaltending EVER). Had Hasek not been around would Brodeur had won more than 4x Vezina's? Probably. Had a defense men like Potvin or Orr been around or even Leetch, Bourque, Chelios etc in their primes in the 80's / 90's than would Lidstrom have won 6x Norris trophies? Probably not. That's not to discredit Lidstrom though. He deserves his fame.

I'm just playing Devils Advocate and trying to look at both sides of the coin.
Yup, I agree. As far as getting your foot in the door and getting access to a professional coach and training that can get the best out of your talents... definitely a very valid point. I also agree concerning the number of Norrises he WON compared to how many I think he SHOULD HAVE won... and without digressing any further, it did have an impact on the end of my post where I said I would go with Marty unless otherwise convinced.

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06-16-2009, 09:28 PM
  #18
kyle evs48
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Both started winning their trophies (Vezina and Norris) as the greats of their respective positions began to retire.

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06-16-2009, 09:49 PM
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What do you mean by had

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06-17-2009, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
It is arguable that Brodeur is the #1 goalie of all time. It is not debatable that Broduer is at worst top-7. Lidstrom is a great d-man, but he is questionable for top-5 defensemen. Also, let us not forget that Brodeur dominated and won his awards in an era that was very strong for goaltenders, while Lidstrom won his awards in an era that was notably weak in high-end defensive talent.
Brodeur actually got his awards as soon as the competition among goaltenders diminished. Brodeur's first Vezina came when Hasek had retired, Roy was diminishing and would retire at the end of that season. Belfour had just had a crappy year in Dallas and was playing his first year in Toronto. Turco had better stats than Brodeur but didn't play enough games to lock up the Vezina. It was the same story the next year with Kiprusoff. He and Turco both broke the modern GAA record, but neither played more than 60 games. Kiprusoff played only 38 that year and was still second to Brodeur. So the voters deemed that 38 games of Kipper was better than 60ish games of any goaltender other than Brodeur. Great competition right?

2007 he narrowly beat Luongo, and that was only because his team got into a lot of shootouts, which enabled him to break the wins record. Last year he narrowly beat out Nabokov. Neither year was he the clear favorite to win; Luongo got more Hart votes than Brodeur in 07. Last year he won because nobody stood out and his name is Brodeur.

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06-17-2009, 01:25 AM
  #21
vadim sharifijanov
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i think the brodeur is possibly the best goalie of all time v. it's not possible that lidstrom is the best defenseman of all time obscures the actual differences between them.

- lidstrom has 9 first team all-stars (with possibly a 10th this year), brodeur has 4 1sts and 4 2nds (with no chance of another this year)
- lidstrom has 6 norrises to brodeur's 4 vezinas
- lidstrom has a smythe (and 4 cups to brodeur's 3)

the thing is, most people will tell you that brodeur is not in the same league as hasek and roy (both of whom we saw him play against), and, all-time, that he ranks behind plante and sawchuk as well.

his only claim to being the greatest goalie of all time are his career numbers, which are inflated by era. the wins record, the shutouts (assuming he tops 103 sometime next season), if sawchuk, plante, and hall had started their careers in the 82 game-era, brodeur would have neither of those records.

by the same token, if lidstrom started his career when bourque did, he might have a shot at the all-time defenseman scoring record (not a great shot, mind you, but he has no shot at it due to the era he plays in). if lidstrom and brodeur had the exact same careers as they've had, only lidstrom had the era-inflated stats and brodeur had no records, would we all be agreeing that lidstrom had the better career?

it's very close (as someone said, they're both fifth all-time at their position), but based on his slightly bigger trophy case, and his very slightly better year-in, year-out consistency (but both are unbelievable in this respect), i have to give it to lidstrom.

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06-17-2009, 01:39 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
Can you not also say that since there can only be 30 starting goaltenders that the competition is even higher than a defense man to get your foot in the door? If, as you say, there are 180 defense men (which there are roughly, give or take) you can argue on the opposite side of the coin that it is easier to make it as a defense man and because there is a bigger population the talent isn't as deep. Where as you can argue that Brodeur had to make it in a tougher position.

Also, the competition between the two in which they were playing is something to be noted. Lidstrom won 6x Norris trophies (personally I think he only deserved about 4x Norris trophies but I digress) and Brodeur won 4x Vezina trophies. Lidstrom played in an era where the defensive talent wasn't exactly at its best. There weren't guys like Potvin or Orr playing. Brodeur had some of his best years when Hasek was in his prime (and we all know that Hasek's stint in his prime was probably the most impressive display of goaltending EVER). Had Hasek not been around would Brodeur had won more than 4x Vezina's? Probably. Had a defense men like Potvin or Orr been around or even Leetch, Bourque, Chelios etc in their primes in the 80's / 90's than would Lidstrom have won 6x Norris trophies? Probably not. That's not to discredit Lidstrom though. He deserves his fame.

I'm just playing Devils Advocate and trying to look at both sides of the coin.
What? Who else deserved some of Lidstrom's trophies? If anything, Lidstrom was robbed of the Norris in 1998 when Blake won it based on scoring more goals and being more physical.

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06-17-2009, 01:39 AM
  #23
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I'm saying Brodeur by an ok margin

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06-17-2009, 03:04 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel13 View Post
Brodeur actually got his awards as soon as the competition among goaltenders diminished. Brodeur's first Vezina came when Hasek had retired, Roy was diminishing and would retire at the end of that season. Belfour had just had a crappy year in Dallas and was playing his first year in Toronto. Turco had better stats than Brodeur but didn't play enough games to lock up the Vezina. It was the same story the next year with Kiprusoff. He and Turco both broke the modern GAA record, but neither played more than 60 games. Kiprusoff played only 38 that year and was still second to Brodeur. So the voters deemed that 38 games of Kipper was better than 60ish games of any goaltender other than Brodeur. Great competition right?

2007 he narrowly beat Luongo, and that was only because his team got into a lot of shootouts, which enabled him to break the wins record. Last year he narrowly beat out Nabokov. Neither year was he the clear favorite to win; Luongo got more Hart votes than Brodeur in 07. Last year he won because nobody stood out and his name is Brodeur.
Yeah, that is right. For some reason I thought Brodeur won a Vezina in the mid-90s beating out Hasek and Roy.

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06-17-2009, 03:09 AM
  #25
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Sorry, but Brodeur by a wide margin. He has already set several NHL record for tenders and will continue to top that in the next few years. He might set records that are impossible to come close to, by anyone, ever.

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