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Sedins reportedly want 63M-12 year deal... similar to Zetterberg's deal

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Old
06-18-2009, 12:36 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Which clearly demonstrates how absurd and appalling this amount really is. 750k isn't that much when it comes to NHL contracts. I'm shocked that they consider themselves on the same level as a Conn Smythe winner and Selke winner who have had tremendous playoff success.

What an absolute joke. Bye bye, enjoy yourselves in Toronto or wherever you end up.
Uh huh. So by this logic, Eric Staal considers himself as good as Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, then, right? On his new contract he'll only make $350,000 less, after all. Heck, unless the Hurricanes just gave him whatever he asked for, he probably originally wanted more than that. Probably more than Crosby and Malkin, in fact. So therefore you think that Staal considers himself a better player than Crosby or Malkin, right?

Or, hm, might your logic just be flawed? Could it be that perhaps you can't just pick one player with a roughly comparable salary and say that another player's opinion of himself is defined as being equal to that player, who you, not the player, chose? Could it be that maybe the Sedins don't think they're as good as Zetterberg, they just, I don't know, think they can get that much, and that Zetterberg, is, you know, underpaid?

If you're going to compare every player's negotiation positions to some of the best deals in the league, of course they're going to come off looking bad. But you're the one who chose Zetterberg and Datsyuk. The Sedins didn't compare themselves to them in anything but your mind. You could have just as easily compared them to Scott Gomez and Chris Drury, who are both paid vastly more than the Sedins are asking for without being as good. Could it be that perhaps picking good contracts will make the Sedins seem bad, while picking bad contracts will make them seem good?

Come on, man. Datsyuk is one of the best players in the league, but there are tons of guys paid more than he is without being as good or even having had any success. And Zetterberg isn't that much further behind.

I don't know whether people are just ignorant or simply willing to make themselves look like fools in order to criticise players they don't like. I don't have any particularly strong feelings about the Sedins, to be honest. I don't know whether or not this deal would be the right move for Vancouver. Some of the ridiculous comments in this thread, however, really bug me. If you don't know what you're talking about or you can't control your biases, don't comment.

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06-18-2009, 12:37 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Macke View Post
Why is everyone so sure players on these long term contracts are all going to retire before the end of their deals?

Just imagine the Sedins being in Vancouver with a 10 million cap hit when they are 40...yikes.

Far too long of a deal.
They could be waived at that point...

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06-18-2009, 12:41 PM
  #128
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Seriously, can somebody please explain to me why people do not understand these deals.
1) They think the risk is too great to sign a player for that long which I can understand, but I think you have to make it.

2) They are probably not fans of the Sedins and would really prefer they didn't come back anyhow.

3) A lack of understanding of economics.

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06-18-2009, 12:44 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Those will be the guys we're trading to get if we don't re-sign the Sedins.
Um, nope.

They'll be promoting Kesler and probably signing a winger to a more reasonable deal. Perhaps even an all-star defenseman. Or, god forbid, letting Sundin have another crack at it.

If there's somebody Gillis is willing to give a 12yr deal to, it's Kesler. Or Hodgson, later on, if he pans out.

Do people realize that having the Sedin onboard forever makes it 500% harder to keep those players and Luongo onboard for any length of time?

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Old
06-18-2009, 12:45 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Macke View Post
Why is everyone so sure players on these long term contracts are all going to retire before the end of their deals?

Just imagine the Sedins being in Vancouver with a 10 million cap hit when they are 40...yikes.

Far too long of a deal.
I don't think 12 years is in the cards. I'm thinking it'll boil down to 9 or 10 years.

Of those 9 or 10 years I think we can safely assume that if they stay healthy they will be productive for 6 or 7 of those years.

Even if they don't retire you have guys that are likely on the back end of a deal that the buy out is less or that can be moved to teams that have cap space but will be willing to pay them less than the cap hit.

These long term deals are all scary be it Henrik Sedin or Alexander Ovechkin. And no I'm not comparing the two. Just simply it's scary for those long term deals. I agree but I also think they will become a bit more of the norm the next couple of years. But they need not be disastrous IMO. I think a good GM can get out from under such deals at the back end of it and for 6 or 7 more good years from these players at that cap hit (or slightly lower) it's a risk I'd take. The problem comes if you are trying to get from under the cap hit a year or two into a deal.

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06-18-2009, 12:49 PM
  #131
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Wow, I really thought people would stop hating on the Sedins if they played well in the playoffs. Nope. Really, you think they're replaceable on the open market? Sure, name 2 of the 4 forwards of their calibre out there and say we should sign them. That's likely, relying on outbidding 30 teams for two UFAs, in fashion that has never happened in franchise history. People are mad they haven't won us a cup. There's 30 teams. THIRTY teams. Just because they don't bring home a cup every year, doesn't mean you throw them under the bus.

In the 2000's, only Pittsburgh, Detroit, Anaheim, Ottawa, Carolina, Edmonton, Tampa, Calgary, New Jersey, Colorado and Dallas have made the finals. Those other 19 teams should dump their core and rebuild!! The whole "they aren't winners" argument is just a cheap excuse to hate the sedins because they aren't as fast as Bure or as Canadian as Linden.

hate, throwin under the bus...what is asking for a 12yr deal? Insulting IMO. They indeed played well in the playoffs, I'll grant them that, however one playoff does not mean they can ask for top dollar. Regardless of the $$$ their style of play will not bring you over the top. We need the cap room for a new direction, and that is an opinion, not throwin anyone under the bus. They could easily make another city happy with their style, just for me, I am through supporting their boring, non progressive style. Plenty of other styles could get you the puck in the corners and in front for a goal or three, not just the Sedin System. We need a change and its now or never. I am tired of this team letting stars fizzle and not cashin out when they hold the poker hand...giving in to their demands or anywhere close would simply be stupid and not the direction one should go. Again, I rather pay them more for a 2 year and call it off (the marriage) sooner rather than later.

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Old
06-18-2009, 12:50 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by DowJones View Post
Seriously, can somebody please explain to me why people do not understand these deals.
Some of us are concerned precisely because we DO understand ALL the implications of such deals.

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Old
06-18-2009, 12:50 PM
  #133
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Um, nope.

They'll be promoting Kesler and probably signing a winger to a more reasonable deal. Perhaps even an all-star defenseman. Or, god forbid, letting Sundin have another crack at it.

If there's somebody Gillis is willing to give a 12yr deal to, it's Kesler. Or Hodgson, later on, if he pans out.

Do people realize that having the Sedin onboard forever makes it 500% harder to keep those players and Luongo onboard for any length of time?
Because Detroit had a real hard time signing Franzen after being "handcuffed" by Zetterberg's contract?

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06-18-2009, 12:52 PM
  #134
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This thread is full of stupidity. 29 Year olds dont get long deal? 6m=5.25m?

Wut Duh Fudge

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06-18-2009, 12:52 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Franzen at 4 sure...

Vinny is not an applicable comparison...

You went 1 for 2

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06-18-2009, 12:55 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
Because Detroit had a real hard time signing Franzen after being "handcuffed" by Zetterberg's contract?
Speaking of Detroit, they won a cup and lost in the finals recently. The Sedins haven't even made the 3rd round yet.

That being said, it's not like Detroit won't have cap problems later on...

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06-18-2009, 12:56 PM
  #137
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Franzen at 4 sure...

Vinny is not an applicable comparison...

You went 1 for 2
Why is this again?

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06-18-2009, 12:56 PM
  #138
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You don't need a certain style of play to win the cup. You just need to score more than the other team.
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Old
06-18-2009, 12:56 PM
  #139
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1) They think the risk is too great to sign a player for that long which I can understand, but I think you have to make it.

2) They are probably not fans of the Sedins and would really prefer they didn't come back anyhow.

3) A lack of understanding of economics.
Too bad its more about the economics these days than talent, character, leadership, potential, and the ability to build on your existing young guns in the system. Handcuffing the nux for any long term is simply a bad move IMO for allowing a team of the future to emerge. It is clear that the youth is the way to go in this new ERA. you can always add the veterns, but the core must be the young talented youth...and trading the Sedins for such youth is IMO the only way for salvation and a future stanley cup in this city. Signing these two will eliminate these chances.

Gillis should save the $$$$ and bring in young guns. STick to the 2-3 year deals Mike, otherwise this team will slowly die not only on the ice but in the locker room too. Patience has worn out with many loyal fans.

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06-18-2009, 12:57 PM
  #140
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Speaking of Detroit, they won a cup and lost in the finals recently. The Sedins haven't even made the 3rd round yet.

That being said, it's not like Detroit won't have cap problems later on...
And you are putting the entire blame on them for that?

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06-18-2009, 01:12 PM
  #141
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And you are putting the entire blame on them for that?
The Detroit players were given long-term deals with low cap hits because they want to have a shot to keep winning now. The Sedins haven't won yet. So why give them the long-term deals?

Either the cap hit must get lower than $5.25mil, or the term must be shorter than 12yrs. Otherwise, they're gone.

I think Gillis will try to get them down to Franzen money. The $5.25mil is still too close to Zetterberg's for that term.

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06-18-2009, 01:13 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by kingtut View Post
Too bad its more about the economics these days than talent, character, leadership, potential, and the ability to build on your existing young guns in the system. Handcuffing the nux for any long term is simply a bad move IMO for allowing a team of the future to emerge. It is clear that the youth is the way to go in this new ERA. you can always add the veterns, but the core must be the young talented youth...and trading the Sedins for such youth is IMO the only way for salvation and a future stanley cup in this city. Signing these two will eliminate these chances.

Gillis should save the $$$$ and bring in young guns. STick to the 2-3 year deals Mike, otherwise this team will slowly die not only on the ice but in the locker room too. Patience has worn out with many loyal fans.
How many players are going to sign 2-3 year deals if they can sign for longer more secure deals elsewhere?

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Old
06-18-2009, 01:24 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by eric71 View Post
This thread is full of stupidity. 29 Year olds dont get long deal? 6m=5.25m?

Wut Duh Fudge
Yeah, pretty much. It's kinda crazy that anyone would think getting two ppg players for 5.25m is a bad deal. That's Horcoff money.

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06-18-2009, 01:31 PM
  #144
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How many players are going to sign 2-3 year deals if they can sign for longer more secure deals elsewhere?
If they are hungry for a job and want to continue a lucrative career. Short term is the way to go and a way to not be handcuffed. Don't mind the big dollar giveaways, but at least you're paying for the current and not for the has-been or gunna be (aka Naslund).

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06-18-2009, 01:32 PM
  #145
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Yeah, pretty much. It's kinda crazy that anyone would think getting two ppg players for 5.25m is a bad deal. That's Horcoff money.
two PPG players is right. thank you

Now what this team needs are....

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06-18-2009, 01:54 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by kingtut View Post
If they are hungry for a job and want to continue a lucrative career. Short term is the way to go and a way to not be handcuffed. Don't mind the big dollar giveaways, but at least you're paying for the current and not for the has-been or gunna be (aka Naslund).
No, you are overpaying for current which handcuffs your roster in other areas. With smaller cap hits you have a better chance of having the cap space to fill needs.

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06-18-2009, 01:57 PM
  #147
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Uh huh. So by this logic, Eric Staal considers himself as good as Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin, then, right? On his new contract he'll only make $350,000 less, after all. Heck, unless the Hurricanes just gave him whatever he asked for, he probably originally wanted more than that. Probably more than Crosby and Malkin, in fact. So therefore you think that Staal considers himself a better player than Crosby or Malkin, right?
Staal won a cup and is a great playoff performer. Perhaps not quite as good as Malkin or Crosby, but that comparison would be closer than the Sedins to Zetterberg.

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Or, hm, might your logic just be flawed? Could it be that perhaps you can't just pick one player with a roughly comparable salary and say that another player's opinion of himself is defined as being equal to that player, who you, not the player, chose? Could it be that maybe the Sedins don't think they're as good as Zetterberg, they just, I don't know, think they can get that much, and that Zetterberg, is, you know, underpaid?

If you're going to compare every player's negotiation positions to some of the best deals in the league, of course they're going to come off looking bad. But you're the one who chose Zetterberg and Datsyuk. The Sedins didn't compare themselves to them in anything but your mind. You could have just as easily compared them to Scott Gomez and Chris Drury, who are both paid vastly more than the Sedins are asking for without being as good. Could it be that perhaps picking good contracts will make the Sedins seem bad, while picking bad contracts will make them seem good?
You could compare them to the worst contracts in the league to make them seem good, but that would be equally flawed. I guess the reason why we'd compare them to Zetterberg and Datsyuk is that they would be comparable in terms of cap hit and duration of contract.

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Originally Posted by Ragnar View Post
Come on, man. Datsyuk is one of the best players in the league, but there are tons of guys paid more than he is without being as good or even having had any success. And Zetterberg isn't that much further behind.

I don't know whether people are just ignorant or simply willing to make themselves look like fools in order to criticise players they don't like. I don't have any particularly strong feelings about the Sedins, to be honest. I don't know whether or not this deal would be the right move for Vancouver. Some of the ridiculous comments in this thread, however, really bug me. If you don't know what you're talking about or you can't control your biases, don't comment.
Sorry, this is a hockey forum. The whole point is to comment and express our opinions, if other people's opinions or "biases" upset you perhaps you should spend your free time on something else. Disagreeing with investing that much in players' who have not won anything with this franchise doesn't mean we "don't like them" or their appearances or whatever.

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Old
06-18-2009, 01:59 PM
  #148
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No, you are overpaying for current which handcuffs your roster in other areas. With smaller cap hits you have a better chance of having the cap space to fill needs.
you forget the handcuffing of style of play for at least another decade. Change is evident and unfortunately this organization seems to let players walk before trading them as assets. Sedins may have peaked, but thats as good as it ever will get IMO, and rather than stay the status quo, why not get some courage to reshape this organization in a different more exciting way that may still have a chance at the big prize. It is proven that youth and young stars get you to the big show, not overpaying or keeping aged cheese around.

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06-18-2009, 02:11 PM
  #149
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Everyone who thinks these deals are horrible should give their heads a shake.

The Sedins have said multiple times that they want to finish their careers in the SEL.
The length, 8 or 12 years make no difference, they will just retire eventually and thent hey wont be on the books.

You pretty much lock up two ppg players in the prime until they retire from the NHL at an EXTREMELY sexy caphit.

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06-18-2009, 02:17 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by lefty2time View Post
Everyone who thinks these deals are horrible should give their heads a shake.

The Sedins have said multiple times that they want to finish their careers in the SEL.
The length, 8 or 12 years make no difference, they will just retire eventually and thent hey wont be on the books.

You pretty much lock up two ppg players in the prime until they retire from the NHL at an EXTREMELY sexy caphit.
Here here. /end thread

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