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Bring back, or let go

View Poll Results: Bring back Ryan Bayda?
Yes 14 66.67%
No 7 33.33%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-20-2009, 09:20 PM
  #26
impeach estaalo
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Originally Posted by Caner Soze View Post
If shot blocking is a main reason to re-sign Bayda, we should sign Seidenberg to a league maximum contract (or have a 20 reply thread about re-signing him, especially if there's one on Ryan freakin Bayda)
Seidenberg is an incredibly underrated hockey player who will be missed and I doubt he can be be adequately replaced by one of our vastly overrated defensive prospects. I seriously get a chuckle every time I hear the name "Bryan Rodney" being mentioned as a viable roster candidate. That it was Jim Rutherford that first brought up the idea turns my laughter into tears.

That and there are people who actually believe that Joe Corvo and Tim Gleason are legit first-pairing defensemen, so does it really matter who's on our second/third pair? Maybe we can "offload" Pitkanen to get a good winger like maybe Mike Comrie (who cares if he's a free agent and sucks....PITKANEN CAN'T PLAY D AND HE'S SOFT!!!).

I'd like to see any of our prospects - or even Tim Gleason - log 22+ minutes a game in all situations next season and do it effectively. Heck, I'd like to see any free agent signed for under $3M that can do that. No, the Hurricanes want a "physical defensive defenseman", so Rutherford will hunt after his niche of a guy who can throw big hits and end up acquiring the worse overall defenseman.

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06-21-2009, 02:21 PM
  #27
Mossy Oak
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Originally Posted by eerodynamic View Post
the bottom line is that almost every hockey person has said that the Canes need to add some tough gritty forwards to make their bottom 6 harder to play against, and at least have one line willing to take the body. Resigning Bayda does nothing for this. So I guess we will agree to disagree on Bayda. You'd keep him and i would look around to try to get more grit and size on the fourth line before even contacting Bayda's agent. Regardless of numbers i just don't think Bayda is that usefull on a nightly basis, even for a fourth liner. If JR cant find anyone else(like last season supposedly) then im not against resigning bayda but to me, he isnt even on the priority list

100% Agree.

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Old
06-21-2009, 04:19 PM
  #28
Vagrant
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Colton Orr just hit the market, supposedly. Panthers are reportedly interested. As much as I think he's a loser for the hit on Cullen, he could serve a purpose here. I can't remember the last time Carolina had a guy that people were scared to fight.

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06-21-2009, 04:51 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Colton Orr just hit the market, supposedly. Panthers are reportedly interested. As much as I think he's a loser for the hit on Cullen, he could serve a purpose here. I can't remember the last time Carolina had an enforcer that people were scared to fight.
fixed it for you. There certainly aren't a lot of people in the league that want a piece of Gleason, but he's also most definitely not someone we want in the box for 5 minutes at a time.

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06-21-2009, 05:28 PM
  #30
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His last name is Orr so I'm fine with signing him. He would certainly be better than Conboy, but since Conboy is here on a 1 way contract I doubt JR goes for a tough guy this offseason.

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06-21-2009, 09:52 PM
  #31
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Colton Orr can't play hockey. 6 goals for and 22 goals against at 5-on-5 last season while playing sheltered minutes against nobodies on the fourth line. You can not trust this guy to play a regular shift. If we want to use him like we used Brookbank for two minutes a night, fine, but don't expect him to do anything useful outside of fighting.

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06-21-2009, 10:00 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Babchuk View Post
Colton Orr can't play hockey. 6 goals for and 22 goals against at 5-on-5 last season while playing sheltered minutes against nobodies on the fourth line. You can not trust this guy to play a regular shift. If we want to use him like we used Brookbank for two minutes a night, fine, but don't expect him to do anything useful outside of fighting.
Well I didn't intend to imply that we should put him with Staal to see how that worked out.

I just really think we could use a presence like Orr on our bench to help protect our midgets and young kids. I keep thinking back to the Weight hit on Sutter and hope we don't get any replays of that next season with the kids we should have up here.

Plus, it would be nice to be on the giving end of some of those highlight reel hits we see given out against us.

I think we're two tough physical presence type players from changing our team identity to a more well rounded bunch.

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Old
06-21-2009, 10:11 PM
  #33
impeach estaalo
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Well I didn't intend to imply that we should put him with Staal to see how that worked out.
He played fourth line minutes last season with Blair Betts and Fredrik Sjostrom (two good defensive players) and still got roasted. We'd have to seriously shelter him in order to not cause him to be a liability. The 6:29/game he played last season is about four minutes too much for a player of his "talents".

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06-21-2009, 10:30 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Babchuk View Post
He played fourth line minutes last season with Blair Betts and Fredrik Sjostrom (two good defensive players) and still got roasted. We'd have to seriously shelter him in order to not cause him to be a liability. The 6:29/game he played last season is about four minutes too much for a player of his "talents".
Well if Brind'Amour and Bayda/Conboy are our 4th line, we shouldn't be all that bad defensively either. Conboy is a defenseman by trade and Brind'Amour is a multiple Selke winner, though we only saw that side of him towards the end of the year.

We need a player on our bench that can make our guys feel 10 feet tall. We need a player that can back off the opposing team's forechecking with a little bit of pressure of his own. Darcy Hordichuk was brought here last offseason to fill that exact role and he's not exactly the most graceful skater out there.

There is a reason that guys like Orr continue to find work and it's because they make their teammates feel safer and allow them to focus on their game as opposed to having to worry about being part time enforcers like Scott Walker and Tim Gleason have had to be.

When Orr jumps over the boards, you know that somebody is in trouble. That kind of presence could REALLY be an asset to our club. We all know that Maurice isn't foreign to the concept with having coached the likes of Darren Langdon and Stu Grimson and all the other enforcers that have gone through our organization.

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06-21-2009, 11:48 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Well if Brind'Amour and Bayda/Conboy are our 4th line, we shouldn't be all that bad defensively either. Conboy is a defenseman by trade and Brind'Amour is a multiple Selke winner, though we only saw that side of him towards the end of the year.
Betts/Sjostrom were the 1st unit PKers on the #1 PK in the league and posted horrific 5-on-5 results due to playing with a useless hockey player in Orr.

A Conboy-Brind'amour-Orr line would get killed. One slow center and two guys who can't play hockey. Bayda would make that line better, but still not good enough to play a regular shift.

Quote:
We need a player on our bench that can make our guys feel 10 feet tall. We need a player that can back off the opposing team's forechecking with a little bit of pressure of his own. Darcy Hordichuk was brought here last offseason to fill that exact role and he's not exactly the most graceful skater out there.

There is a reason that guys like Orr continue to find work and it's because they make their teammates feel safer and allow them to focus on their game as opposed to having to worry about being part time enforcers like Scott Walker and Tim Gleason have had to be.

When Orr jumps over the boards, you know that somebody is in trouble. That kind of presence could REALLY be an asset to our club. We all know that Maurice isn't foreign to the concept with having coached the likes of Darren Langdon and Stu Grimson and all the other enforcers that have gone through our organization.
Hordichuk: 11 goals for, 10 against at 5-on-5. Now that's someone who can actually skate a regular shift without hurting his team.

I am not at all against bringing in an enforcer. Just get somebody who isn't going to be outscored 6-to-22 by the opposition.

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06-22-2009, 12:07 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Babchuk View Post
Betts/Sjostrom were the 1st unit PKers on the #1 PK in the league and posted horrific 5-on-5 results due to playing with a useless hockey player in Orr.

A Conboy-Brind'amour-Orr line would get killed. One slow center and two guys who can't play hockey. Bayda would make that line better, but still not good enough to play a regular shift.

Hordichuk: 11 goals for, 10 against at 5-on-5. Now that's someone who can actually skate a regular shift without hurting his team.

I am not at all against bringing in an enforcer. Just get somebody who isn't going to be outscored 6-to-22 by the opposition.
I hear you for sure, but be it blind optimism that Orr would play better here.... I just see him being able to do more harm than good regardless of his goal differential in terms of the less tangible aspects of the game.

I subscribe to the ideology that a player can have a minus night and still have helped you win the hockey game. It's obvious that you shouldn't have players that get scored on more than they score, but when scoring isn't their game it's hard for me to focus on that.

The impact of an enforcer on the squad is not a quantifiable measure. That's why there are coaches that simply do not believe in them and coaches that become converts once they witness their team getting pushed around like Laviolette did. With hockey the numbers are a more inexact science than they are in baseball for example. The emotional elements are not as prevalent in baseball as they are in hockey. I remember as a kid feeling emboldened against other neighborhood kids when I had my big brothers around to make sure that I didn't get tossed around. This is a simplistic viewpoint, but I believe that part of some guys never goes away. Maybe with an enforcer on the bench, a guy like Whitney would feel safer to take that extra poke at the keeper to score a goal if we really need it.

I know you said you didn't disagree with the notion of an enforcer, but by trade they're skill lacking knuckle draggers at best. If we're going to have one on our roster, I want one that is going to be at least effective when the time calls for it to make our guys proud by knocking the head off of the opposing team's best.

With the way our fanbase attaches themselves to players who fit the prototype of "throwback" hockey players, I couldn't imagine the kind of cult appeal that a player like Orr would have in this market. We still have people pining for a B list enforcer like Boulerice YEARS after his last shift as a Hurricane, and the fanbase has only gotten more impatient since then for a knockout specialist.... and I can't say I can distance myself from that appeal either.

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Old
06-22-2009, 06:20 AM
  #37
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06-22-2009, 11:26 AM
  #38
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First, a disclaimer. I've spent a lot of time around Ryan Bayda, and I think he's a great guy. He will always be one of my favorite guys, just because of a personal connection.

Secondly, I think he's a really good hockey player. As stated above, he is a very good defender with excellent hockey sense (which IMO is a characteristic we definitely should *not* be kicking to the curb in light of the general lack of hockey sense in some others), who rarely makes a risky play or gets caught out of position. I don't think anybody has ever said, "that was a dumb play by Bayda," or "Bayda should've just gotten that puck deep," or anything like that in game threads. The guy just plays hockey the way it's supposed to be played. This past year, even the "we need an enforcer" posters on this board have to admit, he added a bit of sandpaper to his game, and got in a lot of goalie's faces. He was in the middle of a bunch of scrums, and drew a bunch of penalties.

I think that's valuable. Here's a guy who was born to play hockey, who loves this team, is loved by his teammates, who is willing to accept whatever role the coaches see fit for him (including sitting in the press box), and gives 100% every time he's on the ice. No, he's not the most skilled guy, but how many times do we say that we'd be willing to accept that if a guy just gave 100% all the time. Well, here's your guy.

A lot of teams do a lot worse than Ryan Bayda on the fourth line. I think a line like Sutter-Bayda-Eaves would be a lot of fun to watch, and not a whole heck of a lot of fun to play against. None of 'em are big, but they're all effort guys who "get it" and who can put the puck in the net if they get the chance and who aren't afraid to play the game the way it should be played.

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06-22-2009, 03:22 PM
  #39
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I wouldn't mind seeing that line either, but Sutter needs to be playing more than 10-12 minutes a night on a 4th line (even if its the AHL) or his offensive development could go south pretty quickly. Eaves and his salary would also be a waste on the 4th line, plus he'll continue to suck offensively. I still think he could be a 40 point guy given the right linemates. I won't mind Bayda coming back at all though.

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06-22-2009, 03:30 PM
  #40
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If Larose can score 31 points and 19 goals on line with Ray and Matty, Eaves can too. Eaves is good player, can play defense and know how to play effective in offense. I'm really like Patty. Call me crasy but for few games in new season, i want to see him on 2nd line with Whit and Cullen. He deserves this chance cause he works very hard.

Sutter should play on 3nd line, on C. Ok, he's not great on faceoffs but he's waste of time on 4 line. This kid not great like Gretzky, doesn't have pottential on Staalsy but will be excellent replacement on Brindy on 2nd line soon if he gets chance.

Call me crazy or something like that but i thinks so.

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06-23-2009, 11:06 AM
  #41
impeach estaalo
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Originally Posted by caniacho View Post
If Larose can score 31 points and 19 goals on line with Ray and Matty, Eaves can too. Eaves is good player, can play defense and know how to play effective in offense. I'm really like Patty. Call me crasy but for few games in new season, i want to see him on 2nd line with Whit and Cullen. He deserves this chance cause he works very hard.
Agreed. People talk about LaRose's 31 points as if he had the best season ever and blows away that "****** hockey player" Eaves (as I saw him described on another 'Canes board), but forget that Eaves has seasons of 14g+18a=32pts and 20g+9a=29pts (in 59 games) while getting much less ice time than even LaRose did this season. When LaRose was 25 (Eaves' current age), his career high in goals was six.

Eaves doesn't offer LaRose's speed/tenacity, but what he does bring is an actual shot rather than just the ability to collect opportunistic garbage goals...such garbage goals that I fear may dry up for LaRose and cause him to come back down to earth offensively next season. Eaves' hits actually accomplish something unlike LaRose who just bounces off most his checks.

Eaves is also the smarter defensive hockey player despite LaRose's ability to generate ridiculous amounts of shorthanded scoring chances (approximately .01% of which are actually finished on). LaRose is an effort penalty killer who rushes the pointman and either causes him to turn the puck over/rush a pass, or completely loses position and causes a scoring chance for the other team. Eaves is a better positional player who doesn't chase the puck as much.

Ideally neither of the two would be on the second line. That should be Justin Williams' spot . But outside of one career season for LaRose in a UFA contract year (HUGE RED FLAG!), Eaves has the better track record of producing offense while getting less ice time and being two years younger. The organization has already decided to pay Eaves $1.4M/yr, so why not give him a chance to see what he can do? Why pay LaRose similar money if you think Eaves can accomplish the same thing? Or has Rutherford given up on Eaves after one bad year? Is he destined to rot on the 4th line?

If given a legit opportunity somewhere (and I hope it's here), Eaves will become a poor man's Justin Williams who can score 20+ goals a year and play on your first PK unit. I do not see a similar upside for LaRose, who I believe will be a perennial 15-goal energy guy unless he somehow convinces Pittsburgh to play him with Malkin or Crosby. Nothing wrong with that career projection, but I'd rather hold onto Eaves.

Quote:
Sutter should play on 3nd line, on C. Ok, he's not great on faceoffs but he's waste of time on 4 line. This kid not great like Gretzky, doesn't have pottential on Staalsy but will be excellent replacement on Brindy on 2nd line soon if he gets chance.

Call me crazy or something like that but i thinks so.
Sutter could possibly be a late boomer offensively once he grows into his frame, but the most he ever scored in juniors was 26g/57pts. Compare that to career highs of 47g/83pts for Bowman and 33g/91pts for Boychuk.

Maybe 3-4 years from now Sutter could be a viable candidate for a second line spot with Brind'amour and Cullen both likely gone, but I just don't think he possesses the offensive ability to center a very good scoring line. Maybe that would be possible if he was surrounded by two great scorers who could feed off his ability to cycle the puck. The most I ever see him scoring is ~45-50 points and that's in a career year.

But regardless of how many points Sutter may or may not score, he's the exact type of player that helps you win hockey games. His goals-against numbers as an underweight 19-year old rookie who couldn't win a face-off were great. Granted he didn't play against much of anybody (except on the PK), but once he gains some weight and gets better in the face-off dot he's someone who you want to throw out against top lines every night. The only other forward on the team I can say that about is Staal (who is proving now he can excel against top competition; look at the forward lines/defensive pairings he played against and his +/-) and maybe Eaves. And Justin Williams .

Even if Sutter never scores more than 25 points in a season and becomes Samuel Pahlsson2.0, that's still an incredibly valuable hockey player to have on your team.

I sincerely hope Sutter is in the AHL next season developing a bit of an offensive game and learning how to win a face-off. Playing him in the NHL - unless it's in the Top 9 - is a bad idea.


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Old
06-23-2009, 11:58 AM
  #42
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Good post, Anton.

I like Sutter- types player. Without this type players, every team can't win serious game vs good and balanced team.

I think Sutter will surpised everyone with good offensive numbers. Ok, 40-50 points it's not too much but i liked. Remember Flyers captain Richards on his first two season? I expected for Sutter to be similar player.

Also, you know - this is Carolina not others team. You can't except on 2nd line to see another Staal version who can score 80-90 points. I have no problem with Brandon. He's young player who works extremelly hard and will be ready soon.

Even on 4nd line on his rookie season, i'm really surprised with Sutter game. He plays with heart and have a great chemistry with Bayda and Eaves if i'm remember correct.

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