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Carcillo/Talbot - Turning point of Game 6 or scapegoat? (from Kings rumor thread)

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Old
06-21-2009, 12:21 AM
  #126
Chicken Chaser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Me, if someone picks a fight with me I'm beating the **** out of him and keeping him down until they draft me off his ass because he's unconcious. I don't beat him a little and then let him up and try to dodge his punches. Carcillo kept beatin the **** out of the Pens, the rest of the team and the COACH were a bunch of ******* and let the Pens up off the mat.
QFT, this **** needs to stop, all of the haters in this thread are getting to a sickening level. its to the point now where the poor guy wont be given even the time of day on this frick'n forum come next season. was his fight ill times? perhaps... did it make the team fall apart? **** no. please stop acting like a bunch of teenage girls here and realize that all of our "favorite" players turtled after the fight and let Pitt determine the pace of the game and score goals at will after being down 3-0.
I was never a fan of Carcillo but i'm slowly becoming one because of all the idiotic people on this thread who keep trying to find a scapregoat in the penguins winning a cup. Its comical at best, the players who were given the ice time, in the most important period and a half of their entire season didn't get the job done, not carcillo, he was brought in to bring grit to our line up and he did his job. you could argue his timing, but thats on stevens....
Too many of you are stuck on this "broadstreet bullies" mindset that fighting actually changes momentum in a ****ing playoff game. fighting goes down in the playoffs because its a sideshow act that can maybe get a team riled up in the heat of a game during an overly long 82 game season where there are lulls in team effort and intensity, not the playoffs. everyone is expected to bring it come playoff time and if they don't (which frankly the flyers best players didn't) then its their own damn fault, not someone answering the bell when no one else could do their ****ing job.

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06-21-2009, 12:22 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I used 2 key words in there. In part. It's not all his fault, but where did it start? It started with a guy being goaded into a fight he never should have taken. A player with a brain walks away. Every time.
Total rubbish. If Carcillo had walked away you'd have blamed him for chickening out and costing the Flyers the game. Pity the depth to which Upshall fans will sink.

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06-21-2009, 12:25 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
Total rubbish. If Carcillo had walked away you'd have blamed him for chickening out and costing the Flyers the game.
Total toss away line. Prove it. Hell, the broadcaster of the game was immediately questioning the decision to fight.

Quote:
Pity the depth to which Upshall fans will sink.
What does being or not being an Upshall fan have to do with the sagacity of Carcillo choosing to fight? Please enlighten...while you're at it, give me two good reasons for Carcillo to fight with a 3-0 lead and all the momentum on his teams side.

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06-21-2009, 12:40 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Chicken Chaser View Post
QFT, this **** needs to stop, all of the haters in this thread are getting to a sickening level. its to the point now where the poor guy wont be given even the time of day on this frick'n forum come next season. was his fight ill times? perhaps... did it make the team fall apart? **** no. please stop acting like a bunch of teenage girls here and realize that all of our "favorite" players turtled after the fight and let Pitt determine the pace of the game and score goals at will after being down 3-0.
I was never a fan of Carcillo but i'm slowly becoming one because of all the idiotic people on this thread who keep trying to find a scapregoat in the penguins winning a cup. Its comical at best, the players who were given the ice time, in the most important period and a half of their entire season didn't get the job done, not carcillo, he was brought in to bring grit to our line up and he did his job. you could argue his timing, but thats on stevens....
Too many of you are stuck on this "broadstreet bullies" mindset that fighting actually changes momentum in a ****ing playoff game. fighting goes down in the playoffs because its a sideshow act that can maybe get a team riled up in the heat of a game during an overly long 82 game season where there are lulls in team effort and intensity, not the playoffs. everyone is expected to bring it come playoff time and if they don't (which frankly the flyers best players didn't) then its their own damn fault, not someone answering the bell when no one else could do their ****ing job.
Carcillo was brought in to gain Cap space, it's as simple as that... cut and dried... With him on the roster instead of Upshall, Giroux could stay with the club when there was an injury on D. The Cap was that tight... If you honestly believe that Carcillo was brought in for ANY other reason, you are delusional.

Go buy a Carcillo jersey to honor your new hero... Me, I will see him as a wasted roster spot that comes at a cheap contract price -- damn Bettman -- and nothing more... Not one of Homer's most shining moments, I'm afraid.



... I now agree to disagree, and will gently bow out of this dead horse beating thread.

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06-21-2009, 12:49 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post
................I hope that make more sense when stated that way.
It made sense before. I never argued that Carcillo fighting Talbot didn't give them a new jump and resolve, in fact I specifically acknowledged my belief that it did. What I am saying is that it shouldn't matter. I am not lobbying that Carcillo made the smart choice. I am arguing that the Carcillo scapegoating is ridiculous, selectively critical, and short sighted. 5 pucks didn't go flying into the Flyers' net once Talbot fell to the ice.

When one goal gets scored, it is rarely one guys "fault". If one guy gets beaten, another can step up. If he gets beaten, the goalie can shut the door etc. etc. It is almost never fair to point at one guy and say, "you are the reason they scored that goal, you and you alone did not take care of your responsibility on the ice". Since believe this to be true, you can imagine how I find it to be absolutely silly to blame an entire 5 goal slide on him. Carcillo put the Pens into high gear? So what, the Flyers are professionals. Match the Penguins intensity and compete. If you do that, I can accept whatever the results are. But for for a good thirty minutes following the fight, the Flyers lacked intensity.

That is just my opinion though, obv.

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06-21-2009, 12:51 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by FlyersJunky View Post

Go buy a Carcillo jersey to honor your new hero... Me, I will see him as a wasted roster spot that comes at a cheap contract price -- damn Bettman -
- and nothing more... Not one of Homer's most shining moments, I'm afraid.


Same thing said about Hartnell when he first got here. Now people are riding his jock.. Point of the post??? Let the guy get settled. Dude hasn't even been on the team for a full season. You just hate the guy for no reason which is sad.

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06-21-2009, 01:06 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
It made sense before. I never argued that Carcillo fighting Talbot didn't give them a new jump and resolve, in fact I specifically acknowledged my belief that it did. What I am saying is that it shouldn't matter. I am not lobbying that Carcillo made the smart choice. I am arguing that the Carcillo scapegoating is ridiculous, selectively critical, and short sighted. 5 pucks didn't go flying into the Flyers' net once Talbot fell to the ice.

When one goal gets scored, it is rarely one guys "fault". If one guy gets beaten, another can step up. If he gets beaten, the goalie can shut the door etc. etc. It is almost never fair to point at one guy and say, "you are the reason they scored that goal, you and you alone did not take care of your responsibility on the ice". Since believe this to be true, you can imagine how I find it to be absolutely silly to blame an entire 5 goal slide on him. Carcillo put the Pens into high gear? So what, the Flyers are professionals. Match the Penguins intensity and compete. If you do that, I can accept whatever the results are. But for for a good thirty minutes following the fight, the Flyers lacked intensity.

That is just my opinion though, obv.
I don't believe anyone is blaming Carcillo for the loss... We are all pretty much saying what you just did.

(I know, I know... I said I was done... )

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06-21-2009, 01:19 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post


Same thing said about Hartnell when he first got here. Now people are riding his jock.. Point of the post??? Let the guy get settled. Dude hasn't even been on the team for a full season. You just hate the guy for no reason which is sad.
I didn't see that with Hartnell when he first came in... not at all. Only that he was not starting off very quickly and his Cap hit was high... I can't honestly compare the Carcillo situation with Hartnell's.

... I don't hate Carcillo, and I gave him the benefit of the doubt when he was brought in... But he proved to be no benefit to the team, and he was honestly a Cap clearing move; trust me on that... My remarks were done for the same but opposite reason as your saying that you like him now to rebuke what you read here. I am getting fed up with the martyrdom he is being brought under because many of us are pointing out that he made a bonehead decision that changed the momentum of the game, which was never recovered.

Dude, no one is pinning the blame on the loss on Carcillo... that is a team-wide blame... we are merely pointing out where the game changed and saying that that is not a time to turn the game into a brawl... our opinions, so chill, Dude, get a grip on yourself. No need to overreact.


NOW, I am done... The horse is still quite dead.


EDIT: BTW, for the record, I am one of the least hateful and most supportive Flyers fans you may ever meet... But I try to be honest in my assessments.

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Old
06-21-2009, 01:36 AM
  #134
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I blame the outcome of Game 6 on the fact that Mark ****ing Eaton made a perfect deflection with the middle of the shaft of his stick which skating full-on. When **** like that happened, I got a bad feeling about the game as a whole.

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06-21-2009, 01:37 AM
  #135
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I'm not the biggest fan of the Upshall trade but are people really going to blames Carcillo for giving up a 3 goal lead in the most important game of the season? I'm going to blame the whole team because they failed to protect a 3 goal lead, and because they took their foot off the pedal. It's pathetic to blame our elimination from the playoffs on a fight while we were up 3-0. Not being able to close out the game was the reason we lost.

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06-21-2009, 01:39 AM
  #136
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Hahahahaha. Insane that this has it's own thread now. I thought it was common knowledge that we would've won the cup with Upshall.

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06-21-2009, 06:57 AM
  #137
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^ Abso-****ing-lutely.

I'm at the cottage and wanted to read some rumours while enjoying a nice cup of coffee, not witness more of this nonsense. I can't for the life of me believe that this discussion is taking place. Talk about flogging a dead horse.

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06-21-2009, 07:59 AM
  #138
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The Flyers lost game 6 because they just werent interested in playing. Thats how it seemed to me. I cant really blame Carcillo for the team tanking a nice lead, and taking bad penalties and playing like ****. This is John Stevens hockey. Period. As long as this ****ing joke is coach, we gotta get used to this crap. If you cant hold a 3 goal lead in a do or die NHL playoff game you dont deserve to be on the ice. period.

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06-21-2009, 08:00 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
I'm not the biggest fan of the Upshall trade but are people really going to blames Carcillo for giving up a 3 goal lead in the most important game of the season? I'm going to blame the whole team because they failed to protect a 3 goal lead, and because they took their foot off the pedal. It's pathetic to blame our elimination from the playoffs on a fight while we were up 3-0. Not being able to close out the game was the reason we lost.
Smartest poster on this board.


/thread

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06-21-2009, 08:07 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
To you and everyone else blaming Carcillo for theloss or even just for getting the ball rolling, just go watch the game again, that's all I ask. WE changed our style of play after scoring our 3rd goal. It had nothing to do with the fight and it had nothing to do with the "energy" of the Pens. It had EVERYTHING to do with the FLYERS changing THEIR style of play, the exact same play that kept the Pens bottled up in their own zone and gave us the 3-0 lead, no longer generating any scoring chances ourselves (or at least very few compared to how we played BEFORE we ot the 3-0 lead) and giving the Pens stars the skating room the needed to score and get back into the game.

Just watch the game again. If you're not IRATE at how STUPID we were playing after getting the 3-0 lead then you shouldn't watch hockey any more. It made me sick to my stomach to watch it. This isn't the only time that we've played the end of the game trying to NOT LOSE as opposed to actually trying to win. It's not our game, we just arent a good trapping team.
Oh so in the 15 seconds after we went up 3-0 and the Carcillo/Talbot fight you could clearly see we had turtled? Or perhaps it was more evident we had turtled a few minutes after it was 3-1 (which came 14 seconds after the fight)? And did it ever occur to you that maybe after the fight the Pens made adjustments and just flat out played better than us thus FORCING us to turtle? You are giving the Pens absolutely no credit. And NO turtling is not Carcillo's fault. That is Stevens fault because he just stood there mesmerized instead of adjusting to the Pens adjustments. It still does not excuse Carcillo for making the dumbest decision of the playoffs.

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06-21-2009, 08:43 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
^ Abso-****ing-lutely.

I'm at the cottage and wanted to read some rumours while enjoying a nice cup of coffee, not witness more of this nonsense. I can't for the life of me believe that this discussion is taking place. Talk about flogging a dead horse.
Because it is the offseason and some of us would like to see our stupid players who do not add scoring or shut down defense removed from the roster. We were the most penalized team in the league. I don't see why so many of you don't see that that is a huge problem. It falls on the coaching staff and the players. Personally, I am tired of using the coach as the scape-goat. It's time to start singling out players and packing their bags. Carcillo and Cote are easy targets. They have no hockey skills other than fighting which apparently from this thread can not win you a hockey game so then what is the point of keeping them?

So many posters on this board really seem to think there is a crazy conspiracy against us with the refs. A year after having a ridiculous number of players suspended and games lost to suspension we make a trade deadline deal trading Upshall for Carcillo THE MOST PENALIZED PLAYER IN HOCKEY FOR 2 STRAIGHT YEARS and that is an understatement because nobody is even close to him in PIMs. Great message we sent to the league there Holmgren. We aren't trying to fix the problem we are adding to it.

And before the Upshall jock stuff starts again. I do not give a crap about him. He was extremely overrated by Philly fans. All flash and no finish.

Game 6 to me was just another example of how stupid Carcillo is. I have no doubt Cote would have done the same thing. Probably Hartnell as well, but Hartnell did score 30 goals so removing him is removing more than just PIMs. I see no reason why the Flyers can't keep the 3 scoring lines and build a shut down 4th line which sees more ice time later in the game when protecting a lead. Why does our 4th line have to be riddled with scrubs who can only fight?

[/rant]

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06-21-2009, 08:55 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by ph View Post
Because it is the offseason and some of us would like to see our stupid players who do not add scoring or shut down defense removed from the roster. We were the most penalized team in the league. I don't see why so many of you don't see that that is a huge problem. It falls on the coaching staff and the players. Personally, I am tired of using the coach as the scape-goat. It's time to start singling out players and packing their bags. Carcillo and Cote are easy targets. They have no hockey skills other than fighting which apparently from this thread can not win you a hockey game so then what is the point of keeping them?

So many posters on this board really seem to think there is a crazy conspiracy against us with the refs. A year after having a ridiculous number of players suspended and games lost to suspension we make a trade deadline deal trading Upshall for Carcillo THE MOST PENALIZED PLAYER IN HOCKEY FOR 2 STRAIGHT YEARS and that is an understatement because nobody is even close to him in PIMs. Great message we sent to the league there Holmgren. We aren't trying to fix the problem we are adding to it.

And before the Upshall jock stuff starts again. I do not give a crap about him. He was extremely overrated by Philly fans. All flash and no finish.

Game 6 to me was just another example of how stupid Carcillo is. I have no doubt Cote would have done the same thing. Probably Hartnell as well, but Hartnell did score 30 goals so removing him is removing more than just PIMs. I see no reason why the Flyers can't keep the 3 scoring lines and build a shut down 4th line which sees more ice time later in the game when protecting a lead. Why does our 4th line have to be riddled with scrubs who can only fight?

[/rant]
Bold 1: Isn't that why we have the world champion Philadelphia Phillies?

Bold 2: 3 of our top 5 in penalty minutes were fighters on our team, so they'll rack up penalty minutes solely because of fights(Cote Asham and Carcillo). Some of them may be gone anyway depending on how Homer plays the cap. The problem with penalty minutes lies in the other 2 players that were in the top 5, Coburn and Hartnell, both of which took MANY STUPID PENALTIES, especially Hartnell, which were often retaliations. Coaching only goes so far with that. The coaching got across to Downie and his stupid retaliations by benching him/sending him down, but if they did that to Hartnell or Coburn, HFBoards would likely crash from the posts on this board.

Bold 3: I wouldn't go about saying he's overrated. I would better say he was into a system that didn't fit him. He also had to compete for spots with some players who were way better than him, and he was never given the opportunity to flourish, nor was he given the proper role for the team. You can see that in the fact that he only had 21 points in 55 games with the Flyers this season, but 13 points in 19 games with Phoenix. And before you say I'm biased and still an Upshall lover, I was happy they traded him because we needed the cap space. Did I like him? Yes, but not enough to keep him around if it was going to hurt the team. I think he'll become a bigger player working with The Great One in Phoenix.

Bold 4: Because that's what generally the 4th line is. It's a mix of fighters/minor leaguers. And in the playoffs, unless they're disgusting players, you generally don't bring up inexperienced AHL players into the NHL playoffs, unless they need experience in it. At the time, I don't think they did. Also, Asham on the 3rd line isn't a bad thing, because he can actually puckhandle.

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06-21-2009, 09:25 AM
  #143
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I'm sorry GKJ, but this thread was a terrible idea.

Sure Carcillo engaged in a fight at an inopportune time, which may or may not have led to a boost of momentum on the Penguins side. BUT good teams should be able to stop the momentum of their opponent with a big lead in a pivotal game. You always claim that good teams make their own luck and are able to use it to their advantage. Here is an example of that. The Penguins used the fight to hype themselves help and overcome a deficit. The Flyers didn't stop them. That's why the Penguins were the team that won the Cup this year. It's a team game and the Flyers as a team blew up in Game 6 and the Penguins as a team took advantage of a quick meltdown of their opponent.

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06-21-2009, 09:49 AM
  #144
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
So he's absolved from getting into a needless fight that provided the energy to the other team...because the bench was yelling at him. Much like the fans were yelling at him.

Not good enough.

We can look at it 2 ways:

(a) I don't give a damn what they're saying on the bench. The guys on the ice is what matters. You can see the bench right as they start fighting, it doesn't look like they're saying a whole lot until they're already fighting.

(b) It's a perfect example of my motto recent that "Flyers Hockey does not equate to Winning Hockey." The game has changed, and it seems the Flyers have trouble changing with it.

At any rate, it's something that you're told exactly what NOT to do when you have the momentum, and it's likely a reason why the Coyotes decided that the end did not justify the means and got rid of him.


If anyone noticed around the league, the only people who seem to be ok with that fight taking place reside on this board.
Should he have fought? No.

But is he the reason why we blew a 3-0 lead and showed up for only one period? **** no.

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06-21-2009, 10:03 AM
  #145
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Carcillo is a better hockey player than Jeff Carter. Homer should resign him this year for 12 years, 6 million per. With a no movement clause of course.

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06-21-2009, 10:06 AM
  #146
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Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
Hahahahaha. Insane that this has it's own thread now. I thought it was common knowledge that we would've won the cup with Upshall.
That's my exact point.

Some of these posters are just so quibbling. I said to someone, "so what you're basically saying is that Carcillo gave the Pens all the momentum?" and he replies, "no, I'm not saying that at all."

It's all this crap about how Carcillo formed the snowball that started the avalanche and stuff like that which I find to be ludicrous.

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06-21-2009, 10:15 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
I'm sorry GKJ, but this thread was a terrible idea.

Sure Carcillo engaged in a fight at an inopportune time, which may or may not have led to a boost of momentum on the Penguins side. BUT good teams should be able to stop the momentum of their opponent with a big lead in a pivotal game. You always claim that good teams make their own luck and are able to use it to their advantage. Here is an example of that. The Penguins used the fight to hype themselves help and overcome a deficit. The Flyers didn't stop them. That's why the Penguins were the team that won the Cup this year. It's a team game and the Flyers as a team blew up in Game 6 and the Penguins as a team took advantage of a quick meltdown of their opponent.
BTW, I only put my name at the top of it because the discussion engaged from a previous thread. The fact this thread exists is only because of a moderating decision from a thread that went off topic for over 100 posts.

As for the rest of your post, and a few others, either some of you never passed grade school because of reading comprehension, or you're trying to burn me at the stake despite making some of the same exact points. I will say this one more time loud and clear. People are calling me out for being an idiot when I'm in almost complete agreement with them.

I never blamed one guy for the loss in the Game 6.

Search my posts.

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06-21-2009, 10:20 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Opus View Post
^ Abso-****ing-lutely.

I'm at the cottage and wanted to read some rumours while enjoying a nice cup of coffee, not witness more of this nonsense. I can't for the life of me believe that this discussion is taking place. Talk about flogging a dead horse.
Heh

And you posted this before the obligatory John Stevens wailing.

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06-21-2009, 10:22 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
I'm not the biggest fan of the Upshall trade but are people really going to blames Carcillo for giving up a 3 goal lead in the most important game of the season? I'm going to blame the whole team because they failed to protect a 3 goal lead, and because they took their foot off the pedal. It's pathetic to blame our elimination from the playoffs on a fight while we were up 3-0. Not being able to close out the game was the reason we lost.
Megadittoes.

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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
It's pathetic to blame our elimination from the playoffs on a fight while we were up 3-0.
It is doubly pathetic given what the Pens went on to do.

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06-21-2009, 10:25 AM
  #150
BillyShoe1721
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I'm glad I didn't get in the middle of this one.

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