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Carcillo/Talbot - Turning point of Game 6 or scapegoat? (from Kings rumor thread)

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Old
06-21-2009, 10:33 AM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Again, we're not saying "it's all his fault." He made the snowball, everyone else rolled it down the hill.
i do nto buy that for 1 second. he pounded talbot. had he lost it would have some merit. did you see the look on the pens bench. they didnt appear to have any extra drive from that fight. that crowd was nuts and the flyers should have feed off of that as well, they didnt. instead they folded liek a house of cards at the 1st signof trouble, liek thier coach. the fight had nothign to do with the meltdown. the fact that their coach did nothign to try to stop the bleeding told me all i needed t know abotu him. the fact that steevns has gone all summer so far unscathed and not taken any of the blame is unreal. he was lost and had no idea on what to do and how to get the team back tobeing focused. that first goal was terrible. carle withhi ole stick awipe,other standind there. people never want to hear the truth and that is the flyers didnt deserve to win. the pens wanted it more and it showed.

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06-21-2009, 10:37 AM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWO View Post
i do nto buy that for 1 second. he pounded talbot. had he lost it would have some merit. did you see the look on the pens bench. they didnt appear to have any extra drive from that fight. that crowd was nuts and the flyers should have feed off of that as well, they didnt. instead they folded liek a house of cards at the 1st signof trouble, liek thier coach. the fight had nothign to do with the meltdown. the fact that their coach did nothign to try to stop the bleeding told me all i needed t know abotu him. the fact that steevns has gone all summer so far unscathed and not taken any of the blame is unreal. he was lost and had no idea on what to do and how to get the team back tobeing focused. that first goal was terrible. carle withhi ole stick awipe,other standind there. people never want to hear the truth and that is the flyers didnt deserve to win. the pens wanted it more and it showed.
I was there, the crowd was already nuts. As for the Penguins bench not being pumped, well, they said it themselves. See post 100.

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06-21-2009, 10:40 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I was there, the crowd was already nuts. As for the Penguins bench not being pumped, well, they said it themselves. See post 100.
of course they are going to say that, there body language and face says different. beign down 3-0 on the road and seeing your teammate get his ass handed to him doesnt give them any momentum. they were readu to fold. it was bad defensive play that gave them the goal and momentum, not the fight. they wanted it more. plain and simple.

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06-21-2009, 10:42 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
of course they are going to say that, there body language and face says different. beign down 3-0 on the road and seeing your teammate get his ass handed to him doesnt give them any momentum. they were readu to fold. it was bad defensive play that gave them the goal and momentum, not the fight. they wanted it more. plain and simple.
Again, they said it. NOT me. Sergei Gonchar mentioned it before he was even asked the question. Maxime Talbot said he did it on purpose, basically as a mind game. He knew exactly what he was doing, noted by him shushing the crowd as he went to the box. How many guys show up the crowd after having their ass handed to them? (I feel like I've been here before).

The next response is going to be from someone who will say "Shut up, it was a team effort that lost the game, not just one guy."

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06-21-2009, 10:46 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Again, we're not saying "it's all his fault." He made the snowball, everyone else rolled it down the hill.
Exactly...

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06-21-2009, 10:47 AM
  #156
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I personally would take the Pens responses with a grain of salt.

When someone asks them, "so, when you guys were down 3-0, how did that fight affect you?", do you really think they're going to say, "well, I don't think it affected us a whole lot, actually, it was Carle failing to deal with Malkin behind the net that really started the ball rolling."?

They just gave the politically correct response and gave their teammate credit in the media, if the Flyers had gone on to win that game 8-0 and someone asked the Flyers, "How did that fight affect you?", I'm sure someone would say, "Danny really pumped us up with that fight and we were able to really go on and dominate the game."

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06-21-2009, 10:47 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Again, they said it. NOT me. Sergei Gonchar mentioned it before he was even asked the question. Maxime Talbot said he did it on purpose, basically as a mind game. He knew exactly what he was doing, noted by him shushing the crowd as he went to the box. How many guys show up the crowd after having their ass handed to them? (I feel like I've been here before).

The next response is going to be from someone who will say "Shut up, it was a team effort that lost the game, not just one guy."
i do not feel that fight anything at all to do with their collapse is all. like i said i am still shocked noneof the esteemed beat writers even called out stevens. he did nothign to try to stop the bleeding. no time out, no nothing. that is very alarming to me. the fsct that homer wants him to devise a offensive system is funny. guess that shows all along he never did have anything in place. he will be on a short leash no diubt. however they are just prolonging the inevitable and he shold have been fired.

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06-21-2009, 10:51 AM
  #158
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The turning point of game six was the team shutting down and thinking about game 7 half way through the 2nd period

Blaming Carcillo is ****ing absurd.

/end thread

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06-21-2009, 10:55 AM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I personally would take the Pens responses with a grain of salt.

When someone asks them, "so, when you guys were down 3-0, how did that fight affect you?", do you really think they're going to say, "well, I don't think it affected us a whole lot, actually, it was Carle failing to deal with Malkin behind the net that really started the ball rolling."?

They just gave the politically correct response and gave their teammate credit in the media, if the Flyers had gone on to win that game 8-0 and someone asked the Flyers, "How did that fight affect you?", I'm sure someone would say, "Danny really pumped us up with that fight and we were able to really go on and dominate the game."
And some of them said it without being asked.

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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
i do not feel that fight anything at all to do with their collapse is all. like i said i am still shocked noneof the esteemed beat writers even called out stevens. he did nothign to try to stop the bleeding. no time out, no nothing. that is very alarming to me. the fsct that homer wants him to devise a offensive system is funny. guess that shows all along he never did have anything in place. he will be on a short leash no diubt. however they are just prolonging the inevitable and he shold have been fired.
Which is very much due criticism. If a thread was started 'Stevens not calling a time out in Game 6, right or wrong." I'd be all over that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyersguru View Post
The turning point of game six was the team shutting down and thinking about game 7 half way through the 2nd period

Blaming Carcillo is ****ing absurd.

/end thread
Which one could argue started with the fight, thinking the Penguins were going to roll over and die, and the Penguins ran with it thinking the Flyers were now going to sit back.

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Old
06-21-2009, 11:10 AM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
BTW, I only put my name at the top of it because the discussion engaged from a previous thread. The fact this thread exists is only because of a moderating decision from a thread that went off topic for over 100 posts.

As for the rest of your post, and a few others, either some of you never passed grade school because of reading comprehension, or you're trying to burn me at the stake despite making some of the same exact points. I will say this one more time loud and clear. People are calling me out for being an idiot when I'm in almost complete agreement with them.

I never blamed one guy for the loss in the Game 6.

Search my posts.
I understand you didn't start this thread to say Carcillo is the bane of the Flyers success. You don't have to resort to belittling me though. No one is trying to burn you at the stake, relax. My bad if you feel I was jumping down your throat, but that wasn't my intention.

Here is my point of view on the topic at hand:

Yes the Flyers have some idiots on the team that do stupid things. Maybe Carcillo didn't have to fight Talbot. Maybe it started some kind of "snowball" of momentum for the Pens, as that is what they claim. The more glaring thing to me is the inability of the team (coaches included) to stop said "snowball". I mean we're up 3-0 halfway through an elimination game. As others have mentioned before, Stevens needs to call a timeout after the first or second goal to stop the bleeding. But this doesn't get done and the team never re-coops. There were many games throughout the season where the Flyers gave up a lead and lost. This is the thing the Flyers need to focus on heading into next season. It's not so much the start of the "snowball", because there will almost always be some moment in a game where a team that is down will get that surge of momentum to come back. It's more important for the Flyers to learn how to stop the "snowball".


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06-21-2009, 11:15 AM
  #161
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I wouldn't expect the Pen's to say anything different. Rather than looking at Carcillo's fight as the first thing to go wrong in the chain of events that led to the choke, try looking at it as the last thing to go right. I've never seen a beaten team pick itself up on the road using a loss in a fight as a catalyst. If the Flyers would've scored and went up 4-0 everyone would've questioned Talbot for challenging Carcillo.
Simple fact is, the Pen's weren't done and we thought they were. I may be wrong but did the Pens not lead the NHL in comeback wins this year?

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06-21-2009, 11:20 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I personally would take the Pens responses with a grain of salt.

When someone asks them, "so, when you guys were down 3-0, how did that fight affect you?", do you really think they're going to say, "well, I don't think it affected us a whole lot, actually, it was Carle failing to deal with Malkin behind the net that really started the ball rolling."?

They just gave the politically correct response and gave their teammate credit in the media, if the Flyers had gone on to win that game 8-0 and someone asked the Flyers, "How did that fight affect you?", I'm sure someone would say, "Danny really pumped us up with that fight and we were able to really go on and dominate the game."


I'd say this just about covers the comments.

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06-21-2009, 11:28 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by TheDrizzle81 View Post
Smartest poster on this board.

/thread
Or possibly one of the dumbest. It's amazing how many guys here can't tell the difference between "turning point" and "blame".

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06-21-2009, 11:35 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
I wouldn't expect the Pen's to say anything different. Rather than looking at Carcillo's fight as the first thing to go wrong in the chain of events that led to the choke, try looking at it as the last thing to go right. I've never seen a beaten team pick itself up on the road using a loss in a fight as a catalyst. If the Flyers would've scored and went up 4-0 everyone would've questioned Talbot for challenging Carcillo.
Simple fact is, the Pen's weren't done and we thought they were. I may be wrong but did the Pens not lead the NHL in comeback wins this year?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
I'd say this just about covers the comments.
So, I just want to be clear. One of the seminal moments in Mike Richards career was, as a rookie, fighting Asham in a game when we were trailing 2-0 to the Islanders.

Fight here:



Box Score Here

That fight occurred towards the end of a listless 1st period, and we came back to win 3-2.

Quote:
"This was one of those games that we didn't deserve to lose," DiPietro said. "They took it to another level in the second period. We needed to have that killer instinct and put teams away."
It is your opinion, and the opinion of others here, that we should not have given Mike Richards credit at the time for taking on a bigger, stronger, and better fighter to inspire his club. That the mythos that surrounds the leadership skills and decision making of Mike Richards -- his willingness to fight to inspire his team, which is something Iginla shares -- is overrated and irrelevant? Because, you could make the argument that it was the 2nd period intermission that helped the team get on track, not that fight. However, that fight was celebrated at the time...if I am to believe what is being said here, then it should not have been celebrated, because it didn't matter that Richards went out there and got Asham to fight him.

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06-21-2009, 11:40 AM
  #165
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At some point, like it or not, we'll have to give credit where credit it due. Malkin and Crosby stepped up to the plate and decided the cup was theirs this year. I don't think the Pens were the best team, certainly not better than Detroit, but they were good enough to follow their lead and get it. Carcillo fighting or not fighting wasn't going to stop that. The Flyers didn't have that type of drive this year. Eventually Richards is going to have to have that same single minded purpose and carry this team with him. Whether it was shoulders or whatever the case may be he wasn't ready to do that this year. Carter had a great year but he didn't have the drive Malkin did once the playoffs started. Not trying to put those guys down, I beleive Richards has it in him to get us a few cups over his career but this wasn't the year. All the overly dramatic Carcillo talk in the world isn't going to change that.

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06-21-2009, 02:14 PM
  #166
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Wow, this is one of the more heated threads I've seen in a while.

Here are two posts from our thread, directly after the Carcillo fight:

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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Carcillo had no reason to fight.

Bad decision. Good result, hopefully.
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I'm glad Carcillo won that scrap but the commentators are right...no need to have that fight.
I didn't need to see a Pens comeback to know that Carcillo made the wrong decision. The fact is, the Pens dominated the Flyers in the first period. Had the Flyers not found life in the last three minutes of the first, the final score would have been 5-0 Pittsburgh.

Because the Flyers took a 2-0 lead into the intermission, the Pens were a little deflated; this compounded by Briere's early goal in the second. At this time the emotions of the Flyers were already riding near their peak. The crowd was fully behind the team, the 'Crosby sucks' chants were out in full force and the Pens looked like they were ready to pack it in.

Why would any Flyer risk giving the Penguins any ray of light? If that was Carter fighting Talbot, I would have been upset. The loss isn't on Carcillo as much as it's a credit to Talbot, for recognizing a way he could directly get his team back into the game, and to the Penguins who picked up the ball and continued to dominate the Flyers the way they had in the first period.

The Flyers were the better team in Game 6 for seven of the 60 minutes. They didn't deserve to win that game, even though they had a 3-0 lead at one point.

I hate Carcillo; I won't ever hide from that. What he did was stupid; everyone who arguing that the fight didn't change the momentum should recognize that. It was a team collapse by the Flyers and a great comeback by the Penguins. Carcillo started the snowball and not one Flyer was capable of derailing it that night.

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06-21-2009, 02:44 PM
  #167
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Bad coaching was responsible for losing game 6. Rather than keep the pedal on the gas, the Flyers let up. And it's not the first time that this type of letting up has been done. It seems that there's history with this. I say if you have a team down, you go for the jugular and you rip out their heart. There seems to be this thinking that you let up and you don't humiliate your opposition. That's probably the worst line of thinking any team can have. When you have your opponent down, you stomp a mud hole in them and walk it out dry. You don't let up and give them an opportunity to get back in the game. That's 100% coaching and that's what happened here.

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06-21-2009, 02:45 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Which one could argue started with the fight, thinking the Penguins were going to roll over and die, and the Penguins ran with it thinking the Flyers were now going to sit back.
The team was worried about getting the game over with so they could go to happy hour. You don't lay your guard down because you won a fight.

The Flyers went downhill when Biron let in soft goals. That is where the discussion should start, not the Carcillo fight. Anyone arguing otherwise doesn't know the game besides what Eddie O. tells you.

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06-21-2009, 02:52 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Flyersguru View Post
The team was worried about getting the game over with so they could go to happy hour. You don't lay your guard down because you won a fight.

The Flyers went downhill when Biron let in soft goals. That is where the discussion should start, not the Carcillo fight. Anyone arguing otherwise doesn't know the game besides what Eddie O. tells you.
Players fight to change the momentum of the game. And that is exactly what happened.

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06-21-2009, 02:59 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Agent Orange View Post
Players fight to change the momentum of the game. And that is exactly what happened.


The Pens first goal caused the momentum shift.

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06-21-2009, 03:04 PM
  #171
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I disagree. I was thinking when it happened "what the **** is he doing". It takes the whole team to blow a 3-0 lead in such a crucial game, but that was the worst time for him to fight.

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06-21-2009, 03:51 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyersguru View Post
The team was worried about getting the game over with so they could go to happy hour. You don't lay your guard down because you won a fight.

The Flyers went downhill when Biron let in soft goals. That is where the discussion should start, not the Carcillo fight. Anyone arguing otherwise doesn't know the game besides what Eddie O. tells you.
Many of us were at the game and didn't hear what the NBC commentators said... It was obvious to those of us who know the game.

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06-21-2009, 05:06 PM
  #173
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I cannot believe this is actually still going. I think it is absurd to blame or even say how it is at all his fault. Did we not all witness the goal Pittsburg scored? Obviously it isn't the same, but in high school hockey it was much more backbreaking to give up a soft goal than have one of your teammates stand up to someone that would destroy them. I know it seems like the cool thing to do on his forum is to pick a scapegoat and run with it, but the fact was the flyers weren't mentally tough enough to win the playoff series, the frustration showed when MAF played great was obvious.

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06-21-2009, 06:38 PM
  #174
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Anybody else here think people are looking too much into it? I think people are just using it as an excuse why we lost the series. Pittsburgh was just the better team simple as that. Had we won game 6, I really think we still would have lost game 7.

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06-21-2009, 07:04 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
Anybody else here think people are looking too much into it? I think people are just using it as an excuse why we lost the series. Pittsburgh was just the better team simple as that. Had we won game 6, I really think we still would have lost game 7.


I could agree with that.

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