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Potential 20+ reply thread on Dennis Seidenberg

View Poll Results: Do you want Dennis Seidenberg back?
Yes 20 74.07%
No 7 25.93%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-22-2009, 12:31 PM
  #26
Mossy Oak
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It will be very interesting to see what he gets on the open market. By the sounds of it, he isn't asking about 2 million like Chip speculated. Rather much more.


This has to open the door for a solid, new defenceman, no question. If not we may be in some trouble. If we can get rid of Kaberle (man that gets tiresome to say) we could potentially have 3.5 to spend on a defenceman. Though with JR, it could be recycled, second hand, cheap goods.

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06-22-2009, 12:32 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eerodynamic View Post
http://blogs.newsobserver.com/canes/...kely-to-return

looks like its all but official now
Doesn't want to pay Seidenberg what he's worth, so he'll trade an asset for a cheaper defenseman.

#3 defenseman officially gone. Let's now see who else we lose this offseason and replace with inferior garbage.

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06-22-2009, 01:04 PM
  #28
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it might also be worth noting that Seidenberg set a new career high this season by playing in 70 games. It would be hard for me to pay a guy 2.5+ that has regularly missed +3.5 weeks every year. i realize this comes with the territory of a Dman who blocks shots but id really love to see a few seasons at least in the mid to upper 70's in games played. JMO

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06-22-2009, 01:17 PM
  #29
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I like Dennis Seidenberg, but he is not worth $3.5 million and if a team throws that amount at him, I'll laugh.

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06-22-2009, 01:21 PM
  #30
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I'll miss Dennis. The current situation could also mean that JR is determined to spend all cash reserves he has on signing Cole.

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06-22-2009, 01:21 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Babchuk View Post
Doesn't want to pay Seidenberg what he's worth, so he'll trade an asset for a cheaper defenseman.

#3 defenseman officially gone. Let's now see who else we lose this offseason and replace with inferior garbage.
You think Seidenberg is worth $3.5M-4M?

I wouldn't pay him anything over $2.5M maybe $2.75M. But from what I've heard and what JR is saying, he's looking at the $3.5-4M range and I have to say 'see ya'. He isn't worth that kind of money.

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06-22-2009, 01:31 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Babchuk View Post
Doesn't want to pay Seidenberg what he's worth, so he'll trade an asset for a cheaper defenseman.

#3 defenseman officially gone. Let's now see who else we lose this offseason and replace with inferior garbage.
If Seidenberg gets anything over 3 million per, I'll understand why we let him go.

But I don't think that will stop JR from overpaying for Larose for his best season on a contract year or Cole because he's the uber physical, gritty forward we need (who cares about actual production). They'll both probably get more than they're worth while we play both of them 1 or 2 lines above where they belong.

Looks like we're going to let one of our Albany guys, Babchuk or some "defensive specialist" we sign/acquire replace him in the top 4 next season. Not too excited about our D next season as of now, hopefully we can score a lot of goals.

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06-22-2009, 01:52 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
You think Seidenberg is worth $3.5M-4M?

I wouldn't pay him anything over $2.5M maybe $2.75M. But from what I've heard and what JR is saying, he's looking at the $3.5-4M range and I have to say 'see ya'. He isn't worth that kind of money.
Nobody seems to have a problem with paying Tuomo Ruutu $3.25-$3.5m as an RFA for his career-high 54 points scored playing with Eric Staal while getting top unit PP time.

In my opinion, Top 4 defensemen are worth more than second line wingers regardless of what intangibles/grit they may or may not bring. JR is getting stuck overpaying for second/third line talent like Cole/LaRose because he traded away the only young top line winger we had (Williams) and it's coming at a cost of our defense.

So, yes, Seidenberg is worth $3.5M...especially when he doesn't cost any assets to sign. But that's just pure speculation that he's looking for that sort of money. JR never named any dollar figures. Based on JR's "slot" system (the same system that determined that Matt Cullen was worth no more than Cory Stillman's $1.75M ), it's likely that he doesn't want to pay Seidenberg any more than the average of $2.75M that Gleason is making.

Seidenberg is a Top 4 defenseman who can move the puck. Those cost money. Anybody who you acquire at a significantly cheaper price than $3.5M is either (1) not a Top-4 defenseman or (2) someone on an expiring deal that you will have to pay Top 4 defensemen money after this coming season anyway.

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06-22-2009, 01:54 PM
  #34
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With Seidenberg out of the mix, this is just more money that we can overpay Cole with.

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06-22-2009, 02:04 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Babchuk View Post
Seidenberg is a Top 4 defenseman who can move the puck. Those cost money. Anybody who you acquire at a significantly cheaper price than $3.5M is either (1) not a Top-4 defenseman or (2) someone on an expiring deal that you will have to pay Top 4 defensemen money after this coming season anyway.
Wouldnt this second option be ideal?? With Wallin, Kabs and Corvo's money coming off the books this would seem ideal and it would set up a defensive core of Pitkanen, Gleason, and the acquired top 4 guy. Unless you know Seids can play heavy minutes for 80 games a year i would pursue this option. Plus it would still allow for JR to sign decent forwards for this season while fitting within PKs budget. Can anyone thinks of dmen who would fit this profile, top 4 on last year of cheap deals?

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06-22-2009, 02:17 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eerodynamic View Post
Wouldnt this second option be ideal?? With Wallin, Kabs and Corvo's money coming off the books this would seem ideal and it would set up a defensive core of Pitkanen, Gleason, and the acquired top 4 guy. Unless you know Seids can play heavy minutes for 80 games a year i would pursue this option. Plus it would still allow for JR to sign decent forwards for this season while fitting within PKs budget. Can anyone thinks of dmen who would fit this profile, top 4 on last year of cheap deals?
But if we're going to have to shell out big bucks for Acquired Defenseman next season, why not do it now for Seidenberg without giving up any assets? Seidenberg isn't any more injury prone than Pitkanen or Gleason.

As for Top 4 defensemen on cheap+expiring deals, one name that has been brought up in the past is Anton Volchenkov ($2.5M)...but he'd likely cost Ruutu to acquire.

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06-22-2009, 02:20 PM
  #37
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The deal would obviously have to be for a better dman than Seidenberg. I would agree, we defintely dont want to give up assets for a lateral move.

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06-22-2009, 03:13 PM
  #38
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We can still hope the offers Seids gets on the open market will underwhelm him and maybe get him to re-sign with us. But I won't hold my breath after seeing the contracts Commodore, Finger, etc got in UFA.

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06-22-2009, 03:27 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Babchuk View Post
Nobody seems to have a problem with paying Tuomo Ruutu $3.25-$3.5m as an RFA for his career-high 54 points scored playing with Eric Staal while getting top unit PP time.

In my opinion, Top 4 defensemen are worth more than second line wingers regardless of what intangibles/grit they may or may not bring. JR is getting stuck overpaying for second/third line talent like Cole/LaRose because he traded away the only young top line winger we had (Williams) and it's coming at a cost of our defense.

So, yes, Seidenberg is worth $3.5M...especially when he doesn't cost any assets to sign. But that's just pure speculation that he's looking for that sort of money. JR never named any dollar figures. Based on JR's "slot" system (the same system that determined that Matt Cullen was worth no more than Cory Stillman's $1.75M ), it's likely that he doesn't want to pay Seidenberg any more than the average of $2.75M that Gleason is making.

Seidenberg is a Top 4 defenseman who can move the puck. Those cost money. Anybody who you acquire at a significantly cheaper price than $3.5M is either (1) not a Top-4 defenseman or (2) someone on an expiring deal that you will have to pay Top 4 defensemen money after this coming season anyway.
Here's where we disagree cause I don't see Seidenberg as a top 4 defensemen on a full time basis. The thing with Seidenberg is that he's too freakin inconsistant. Half a game he'll play like a top 4 defenseman, the other half of the game he plays like a 6th defenseman. He hasn't proven that he's a true top 4 defenseman.

Corvo, Pitkanen and Gleason proved they are true top 4 defenseman, so no Seidenberg should not be making more or equal then them. I have to agree with JR on this one, he ins't worth the money he's looking for even though some team will overpay for his services.

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06-22-2009, 03:54 PM
  #40
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In JR's defense, we're not just talking about 2009-10 here. The Canes have a *ton* of salary from overpaid, underperforming vets coming off the books at the end of the 2010 season. Seidenberg is obviously not going to sign a one-year deal, so we're looking at locking him up for three-plus years with this deal.

So, we have a ton of flexibility after next year, and the question you have to ask is if you think Seidenberg is worth giving back some of that flexibility? Consider that you may have a shot at a monster player next year when everybody else has to dump salary and we're in a position to add.

I just don't think you can give a long-term deal to a guy like Seidenberg right now. To say we just lost our third-best defenseman probably gives too much credit to whomever you all are suggesting was our second-best, but that's damning with faint praise, isn't it? I mean, I'm not going to argue he wasn't in *our* top 4, but if Dennis Seidenberg is in your top 4, isn't that part of the problem? Signing him as a top 4 doesn't solve the problem that Dennis Seidenberg is one of your top 4 defensemen.

To me, this is similar to the Commodore thing last year. Average player, played himself out of a couple of organizations, nice fit here, found a role he could succeed in, wanted to get paid as a Top 4, but he just plain isn't. Columbus found that out the hard way. Whoever signs Seidenberg probably will, too.

Seidenberg has been battling consistency his whole career, and is a large part of why Philadelphia and Phoenix gave up on him despite his skillset. It's that "hockey sense" we keep talking about. He just doesn't have it. He'll be 28 on opening night, so he's probably as good as he's going to get.

I don't know who specifically we should fill his spot with, but I do know that he's not a guy I'd be willing to bet was going to be worth a long-term, top 4 type contract.

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06-22-2009, 04:06 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caniac247 View Post
Here's where we disagree cause I don't see Seidenberg as a top 4 defensemen on a full time basis. The thing with Seidenberg is that he's too freakin inconsistant. Half a game he'll play like a top 4 defenseman, the other half of the game he plays like a 6th defenseman. He hasn't proven that he's a true top 4 defenseman.

Corvo, Pitkanen and Gleason proved they are true top 4 defenseman, so no Seidenberg should not be making more or equal then them. I have to agree with JR on this one, he ins't worth the money he's looking for even though some team will overpay for his services.
Agreed on Pitkanen as he's logged #1 minutes for four seasons straight, but how have Gleason and Corvo proven it any more than Seidenberg?

Gleason basically has two years in the NHL where he got roasted on the ice and 1.5 good years in the Top 4. Corvo was a third-pairing D in Ottawa before coming here and being thrown to the wolves on the top pairing.

Seidenberg logged more minutes per game than Gleason, had a lower goals-against rate at 5-on-5 than Corvo+Gleason (and only slightly higher than Pitkanen), and posted 30 points in 70 games while getting second unit PP time.

Tim Gleason is the most overrated player in Hurricanes history next to Erik Cole. If it was Johnson-for-Seidenberg and Adams-for-Gleason nobody would care about the guy. He's two years younger so he'll probably be much better in the future, but right now he's not that superior to Seidenberg. If some people will claim that Gleason is a top-pairing defenseman (), then surely Seidenberg is a Top 4.


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06-22-2009, 04:38 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Babchuk View Post
But if we're going to have to shell out big bucks for Acquired Defenseman next season, why not do it now for Seidenberg without giving up any assets?


Because as of today, I don't believe Dennis Seidenberg is the type of defenceman, top 4 or not, that you shell out big bucks to. He's a good defenceman, but not that good. That would be classified in my mind as an unwise decision. Throw all Seids' numbers at the wall you want - minutes played, hits, blocked shots, etc, and he still isn't worth 3.5 to me, not to the Carolina Hurricanes and I don't even think he's worth that on the open market. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the sucker that gives it to him. Whoever does, has not done their homework, especially in a cap world where it looks like a decrease is on the horizen. This is the same defenceman that was a healthy scratch in the playoffs. Whether fans believe that was the correct or incorrect choice, he was pulled from the lineup in the playoffs so we could insert Frantisek Kaberle in order to have more mobility from the back-end.

I'd rather not play trial and error here. We can't afford a 3.5 million dollar mistake described as overpayment on Dennis Seidenberg because of one fairly solid year, yet one that also showed me he isn't worth 3.5 million.

I am a Seidenberg fan. I like the guy. I like what he brings in different aspects of the game. I wish we could keep him. But not at 3.5 per season I don't.


Last edited by Mossy Oak: 06-22-2009 at 04:49 PM.
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06-22-2009, 05:19 PM
  #43
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I don't want him back under the condition that we use his vacancy to pick up a player via trade that can help us more. I think at times, stats can lie to you no matter how accurate they seem to be. Especially subjective stats like hits and blocked shots.

Bottom line, I don't think Seidenberg is as good as he's going to be paid and i'm glad that we're not the team that is going to give it to him for a change.
Vagrant, I agree with you 100%. Let's use that money to sign a good scoring forward. To be honest, I think the defense will be just fine without Seidenberg.

If we get into next season, and the #1 problem for the team is the defense, I'll consider it a manageable situation. Right now, it looks like the problem will be scoring, and that's a bigger issue IMO. You can't win many games when you don't score goals.

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06-22-2009, 05:35 PM
  #44
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I would try and package Babchuk (as judging my JR's words, my best guess is his days are rather limited here whether it be now, during the season or next offseason). I would seriously consider packaging Babchuk and his 16 goals with our 1st round pick (27) and trying to move up in the draft to grab Landon Ferraro.
I agree with you there, but I honestly don't even think we have to give up #27 with Babchuk to get into the mid first round. Let's not forget that RJ frigin Umberger and a 4th were traded for the #19 (Sbisa) and a 3rd. Steve "waste of space" Eminger and a 3rd got the Caps the 27th overall. I honestly think that Babchuk alone and a mid round pick could get us something around #20. First round picks are so overvalued here for whatever reason, but frankly we see trades like those every draft. If we can re-sign Seidenberg to a REASONABLE deal, parlay Babchuk and our 3rd into #18 or something and end up with two solid picks this year I'll be thrilled.

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06-22-2009, 08:25 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by ChucktheCaniac View Post
Vagrant, I agree with you 100%. Let's use that money to sign a good scoring forward. To be honest, I think the defense will be just fine without Seidenberg.

If we get into next season, and the #1 problem for the team is the defense, I'll consider it a manageable situation. Right now, it looks like the problem will be scoring, and that's a bigger issue IMO. You can't win many games when you don't score goals.
That scoring forward better be willing to backcheck. We already have enough "scoring" forwards who dont backcheck regularly..including Staal. Most night when the Canes D struggled it was compounded by subpar efforts by the forwards on the defensive end.

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06-23-2009, 07:59 AM
  #46
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Rutherford said a healthy Frantisek Kaberle could be a replacement for Seidenberg. Kaberle, who has a $2.2 million salary, missed 25 games because of injuries and was a healthy scratch in 15 of the last 17 games of the regular season.

"He's a useful player, a no-maintenance player," Rutherford said. "If he has a good training camp, he should fit himself into the lineup."

There has been speculation Kaberle might play next season in Russia, but Rutherford said Kaberle, in his exit interview after the season, said he wants to stay with the Hurricanes.
http://www.newsobserver.com/796/story/1579651.html


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06-23-2009, 08:06 AM
  #47
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How about Cheli? Not getting a new contract from Detroit

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06-23-2009, 08:22 AM
  #48
impeach estaalo
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Originally Posted by Guerzy View Post
This news upsets me as I seriously thought we'd have a shot at freeing up $2.2M (I think Kaberle is still a decent bottom-pairing defenseman, but he's massively overpaid; I'd have zero problem with him on the team if he was making $1M as I think he's a significantly better hockey player than Wallin), but I'll try to look at it optimistically.

Kaberle - due to his skating and passing abilities - is a much better partner for Babchuk than Wallin is.

The problem is using him as anything more than Babchuk's partner on the third pairing, let alone a Seidenberg replacement. Kaberle has had one season where he logged the sort of minutes Seidenberg did this past season, and that was back in '03-'04 in Atlanta. Kaberle did a very good job that season logging 23:20/game and posting a + rating on a horrific team to go along with 29 points in 69 games (it's a pure myth that '05-'06 was Kaberle's "only good season"; it was best statistically, but he also pretty much leeched off a dynamic offense), but that was eons and about a half dozen injuries ago--including a serious shoulder injury that has made his shot even more pathetic than it was.

Then again Maurice scratched Seidenberg for two playoff games in favor of Kaberle and Kaberle actually seemed to play pretty well (going +1 in 7 games with only Samsonov having a better +/- rating; Seidenberg was -5), so maybe he still has some quality hockey left in him.

Based on the likelihood that Kaberle's money will not be freed up, I think we will see either a kid (Carson? McBain?) or Babchuk in the top 4. Surely Rutherford does not believe that Kaberle can be a Top 4 defenseman again. That's insanity.


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06-23-2009, 08:35 AM
  #49
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Agreed that Kaberle won't be top 4. I think a bottom 3 of Kaberle/Wallin and Babchuk/Carson makes sense, although it's far too expensive.

My concern is that Seidenberg doesn't free up enough money to replace him in the top 4. That means the top 4 is either Pitkanen/Babchuk and Gleason/Corvo as you mention, or Pitkanen/(Carson or Rodney) and Gleason/Corvo. I think Carson is clearly a better pairing for Pitkanen than Rodney.

Also, the Kaberle news tells me that Omsk won't take Kaberle as a loan at 2.2 million, and Rutherford won't buy him out with one year left.

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06-23-2009, 08:46 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrispy
Agreed that Kaberle won't be top 4. I think a bottom 3 of Kaberle/Wallin and Babchuk makes sense, although it's far too expensive.

My concern is that Seidenberg doesn't free up enough money to replace him in the top 4. That means the top 4 is either Pitkanen/Babchuk and Gleason/Corvo as you mention, or Pitkanen/(Carson or Rodney) and Gleason/Corvo. I think Carson is clearly a better pairing for Pitkanen than Rodney.

Also, the Kaberle news tells me that Omsk won't take Kaberle as a loan at 2.2 million, and Rutherford won't buy him out with one year left.
I think Pitkanen-Carson could be a real good pairing and I'd rather have it than Pitkanen-Babchuk. Not that Carson is better than Babchuk, but just that he's a better fit with Pitkanen. Both Pitkanen and Carson have size (Pitkanen doesn't really use his much except along the boards but I've heard Carson does, though I admit I've only seen him play a few games), can skate and move the puck. Babchuk fills one of those categories and he's probably the softest 6'5" defenseman in hockey.

Last season when they were together, Pitkanen-Carson were scored on once in 25:54 of even strength time together while matched up mostly against top lines (the main line they faced was Gagne-Richards-Knuble). That's a pretty good rate and obviously a very small sample size, but at least there's some potential there.

As you imply, Pitkanen-Rodney would be a disaster. Pitkanen can only cover for his defensive partner so much and neither are remotely physical + both like to pinch. Rodney in the Top 4 paired with anyone except Nicklas Lidstrom would be a bad idea.

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