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Per Brooksie, Rangers unlikely to resign Colton Orr

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Old
06-21-2009, 10:50 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
I'd rather sign Chris Neil, the guy can actually play hockey, and has an even dirtier edge which this team has lacked since guys like Domi, Kocur, Beukeboom, and Langdon. A guy like Brashear comes and takes a cheapshot at one of our guys? Neil goes out and takes a run at one of theirs.
As much as i don't want it to be Neil (I tend to disagree that he can ACTUALLY "play" hockey, he had like 10 points last season, and he wasnt on the Sens 4th line), I agree here. Orr might pack some punch but he's a lot like George Laraques. I don't want a guy that isn't going to honor "the code" but when things get ugly I want a guy that's gonna make the other team pay, and that's actually USUALLY done without your fists, at least at first. Orr is incapable of this.

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06-21-2009, 10:52 PM
  #102
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Byers wears a shield.

Nuff' said.

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06-21-2009, 10:54 PM
  #103
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I don't think Byers is going to be as bad as some people think. I just don't think he's going to be able to hang with the real heavyweights and that is a problem. You have to think in terms of Kris King and Matt Barnaby--not Domi, Langdon or Kocur. Other teams are going to have an intimidation button they can push whenever they want. Beyond that the Rangers are not very tough anyway. Too many guys in our lineup will fold if other teams start hammering us.

Anyway the Rangers have done this before and it doesn't work. Whenever I hear a coach or GM start talking about 'team toughness' I cringe. It's a not a job that gets done by committee. This strategy will lead to losses on the ice and against inferior teams. It's a strategy for disaster. If the Rangers want to cut ties with Orr they will have to find some decent replacement and Soryal I don't think is ready.


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Old
06-21-2009, 10:56 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerFan10 View Post
Last season Orr did little to nothing to prevent anyone being pushed around. It's more about an attitude these days, and we had players often show that we were not going to take being "thrown around," if you will, by throwing their bodies around and/or throwing the mitts (Cally, Dubi, Mara, Avery, etc.).

I really doubt someone is going to be that worried about Colton Orr being that he sees the ice for about 4 minutes a game. Not hard to avoid him. Seriously, where was Colton Orr when Jarkku Ruutu was reaking all that havoc?
I think part of the problem is that people assume that having a feared enforcers means that EVERYTHING stops. It just doesn't work that way.

Having said that, it definately buys your guys space and room. I think we also can't underestimate how brave guys get when they know their is a legit heavyweight to back them up.

The role of the enforcer isn't just about fighting, it's about the impact it has on other players and the little things that don't always show up on a stat sheet or highlight reel.

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06-21-2009, 10:57 PM
  #105
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Sather is really running your team into the ground, your team can ill afford to get softer IMO

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06-21-2009, 11:01 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
So you think that Dane Byers, playing 3-4 minutes a night, will not only score more than Orr, but simultaneously be able to take on some of the top heavyweights in the league? Eric Godard? Brashear? Koci? Parros? I wouldn't wanna see Byers in the ring with ANY of those guys.
I don't think that Torts will only use that line for 3-4 minutes if the line can actually get scoring chances regularly.

That's the thing. If the line won't score, it won't see ice.

Orr is the weight that brings that line down, unfortunately.

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06-21-2009, 11:02 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Graves View Post
Sather is really running your team into the ground, your team can ill afford to get softer IMO
Because bringing up Byers will make the team softer.

If anything, it will make it grittier since he hits everything that moves.

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06-21-2009, 11:02 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
I'd rather sign Chris Neil, the guy can actually play hockey, and has an even dirtier edge which this team has lacked since guys like Domi, Kocur, Beukeboom, and Langdon. A guy like Brashear comes and takes a cheapshot at one of our guys? Neil goes out and takes a run at one of theirs.


Neil will make probably 2.5 times as much as Orr, and with this teams cap situation, we can't be paying over a million to a 10 point scorer.

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06-21-2009, 11:03 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I'll chime in on two points -

1. I don't think it's as easy as just having a physical guy who runs at other teams players. If that were the case we'd have been fine in the past with just dressing guys like Hollweg and Avery.

2. I've always seen Byers as more of a replacement for Hollweg, not as our next enforcer. He's a big, pesky, guy who checks, fights and brings some offense to the table. I'd compare him more to a Darren McCarty type (if all goes well),

I'm not in favor of signing Orr to a huge contract, but to not explore the possibility seems rather foolish to me.

The guy can't score, but he wasn't a liability either on the fourth line. I see alot of areas to fix on this team. To me, a fourth line forward slot wasn't high on that list.
Well, that's the point. I'd rather have a more skilled Hollweg or a Darren McCarty any day over Orr.

Which is why I fully endorse getting Neil to go along with Byers.

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06-21-2009, 11:03 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I think part of the problem is that people assume that having a feared enforcers means that EVERYTHING stops. It just doesn't work that way.
bingo.

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Old
06-21-2009, 11:05 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Because bringing up Byers will make the team softer.

If anything, it will make it grittier since he hits everything that moves.
Why not keep both? beats putting some soft euro or 5'8 guy on the 4th line.

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06-21-2009, 11:06 PM
  #112
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How is Colton Orr a deterrent?? He only fights other enforcers generally. The guys you have to worry about in this league are the Jarkko Rutuus of the world and they dont fight and when they do its certainly not guys like Colton Orr.

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06-21-2009, 11:13 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall Graves View Post
Why not keep both? beats putting some soft euro or 5'8 guy on the 4th line.
Well, we will have a Euro down there in Sjostrom, but he's far from soft. And I don't think anyone on the line will be 5'8.

Don't know where either comment there came from.

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06-21-2009, 11:18 PM
  #114
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Orr played 500:54 of even strength time last season, and was on the ice for 6 goals. There is maybe 3 players in the league who played even close to similar minutes with equally worse result, Orr being by far the worst.

It wouldn't be a tremendous issue by itself, but Orr has not proven himself to be a good enough defensive player where the end results can negate this, even despite playing with a very good defensive center in Betts, and usually a competent defensive winger on the other side.

You might argue that Betts and Sjo/Korp/etc don't generate enough offense either, so it kills the line regardless. However, despite playing more than 3x time with Orr than any other player (416m with, 170m apart), Betts' was on the ice for double the goals when he wasn't with Orr, in a total of 8 to 4.

Ditto with goals against as well. When Orr played with Betts (416m again), they allowed 18 goals, for a total of 0.865 GA per 20 minutes played. When Betts played with anyone else besides Orr (170m again), the opposing team scored 4 times, for a total of 0.468 GA per 20 minutes played.

The numbers for Sjo follow the exact same trends, albeit not to the same degree, but enough to show causation. Ditto with the 07/08 season, even Hollweg's stats were somewhat better without Orr.


I love what Colton brings physically, and he seems like a genuinely nice guy who gets along well in the locker room, but it's quite obvious he's just not a NHL caliber player, for a number of reasons. He's shown improvement to the point where he isn't a complete mess, but it's quite obvious it's not working.

It's not even about getting extra goals out of the 4th line so that other lines can slack or something, it's about having a 4th line that is comparable to other teams. Every line needs to carry their own weight, this is just another case of this team not doing that.

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Old
06-21-2009, 11:28 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Well, that's the point. I'd rather have a more skilled Hollweg or a Darren McCarty any day over Orr.

Which is why I fully endorse getting Neil to go along with Byers.
Neil is already on the decline in terms of production at this point and he's going to cost you a much higher number against the cap.

As for Byers/more skilled Hollweg, to me that's a guy you play WITH Orr, not in place of him.

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06-21-2009, 11:32 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post
How is Colton Orr a deterrent?? He only fights other enforcers generally. The guys you have to worry about in this league are the Jarkko Rutuus of the world and they dont fight and when they do its certainly not guys like Colton Orr.
Like Sean Avery, you're never going to stop those guys. The idea of an enforcer is to make your guys play a little braver, make most guys think twice before doing something and provide a spark to your team.

When a guy like Fedorek runs around hitting everything that moves and he is promptly knocked out the next time he plays your team, that has an impact.

An enforcer is like a security system. It's not going to stop everyone, but it's a deterrent that certainly helps your case.

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Old
06-21-2009, 11:58 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
I don't think that Torts will only use that line for 3-4 minutes if the line can actually get scoring chances regularly.

That's the thing. If the line won't score, it won't see ice.

Orr is the weight that brings that line down, unfortunately.
So you think that Sjo-Betts-Byers would score more than Sjo-Betts-Orr enough to merit a substantial increase in ES TOI?

Based on what? There is almost no evidence that Byers will be able to produce offense at the NHL level yet. AHL numbers? That's all well and good, but Blair Betts put up 20G and 29A in 69 games in 2001-2002 (better than Byers' best AHL season yet, despite playing in fewer games). In other words, there is really no proof yet that Byers would be any more offensively capable than, or even as offensively capable as Blair Betts.

So let's say we let Colton walk. We're losing a top 5 heavyweight for the chance of scoring 5 more goals and a little more ice time for the fourth line? Sorry if I'm not thrilled at the notion.

Now please don't misconstrue this as me disliking Byers. I like the kid a lot, and think he has a future with this team, but Colton Orr's replacement he is not.

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Old
06-22-2009, 01:32 AM
  #118
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Don't take Orr for granted

I know Orr's limitations, but...

(1) He is responsible defensively, does not take bad penalties & is a good teammate. That's something not to be taken for granted. I'm afraid we will realize it when we find ourselves desperately shopping the scrapheap for another heavyweight. Remember Krzysztof Oliwa anyone?

(2) The Rangers are amongst the softest teams in the league. Despite Orr's limited role, his presence gives the team some semblance of a backbone. It will be a disaster for the Rangers if he is let go & not replaced, because of their lack of team toughness top to bottom. They do not nearly have the skill level on their roster in other areas to overcome it, as another team might.

(3) The love affair so many posters here have with Byers has got to stop. Yes, let him challenge for a roster spot along with the other AHL grinders like Dale Wiese & co., but he won't replace Orr as a heavyweight. As a fighter, he's another Aaron Voros at best. I'm a student of fighting and honestly, I think even Ryan Hollweg is a better fighter than Byers. (At least Hollweg was an overachiever at his size, who usually battled & extended his fights. Byers falls down quicker than Steve McKenna.)

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06-22-2009, 01:59 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by mti79 View Post
you wouldn't be referring to this by any chance would you???


If we don't resign Colton, I'll be upset. I've enjoyed watching him develop the last few years and having a true heavyweight on our team was enjoyable. I don't look forward to having to face him and possibly having him fight Dubi, Avery or anyone else for that matter... well, maybe Voros cause that'd just be funny....
Man Jansen beat his ass, he has mad quick hands too.
I was thinking that Dubi would try to take over the role of "enforcer"

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06-22-2009, 03:27 AM
  #120
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Ehh mixed feeling about this. While Orr was a spectator when not fighting, he was still well liked. I just hope we don't regret it by relying on someone like Byers.

Still remember the night he KOd Fedoruk...

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06-22-2009, 03:32 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Because bringing up Byers will make the team softer.

If anything, it will make it grittier since he hits everything that moves.
Yeah but can Byers go against the Big Boys. I dont think so. One of these days another punk like Fedoruk will come along and we will regret not having a guy like Colton to shut him up...

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06-22-2009, 06:06 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by ZherdeV View Post
Byers wears a shield.

Nuff' said.
Yeah, not so much. Everyone in the AHL wears a shield. It's a league rule.

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06-22-2009, 08:02 AM
  #123
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LOL!

Byers can't even compete against Adam Hall. Adam Hall threw him around like a rag doll and punched the crap out of him. And he's a spastic, punching bag for just about every AHLer. I mean, let's be serious here. Byers is Voros Lite.

And when your Voros Lite, you're in big trouble.

Even funnier is the fact Byers is really not a better skater than Orr. Maybe by a teeny-weeny barely noticable margin. Even Voros is a better skater than Byers. Byers is hardly an encouraging consideration.

And his hockey skills and what he can acomplish at the NHL is a HUGE question mark.

There's no proof he can even play at the NHL level.

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06-22-2009, 08:04 AM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
I'll chime in on two points -

1. I don't think it's as easy as just having a physical guy who runs at other teams players. If that were the case we'd have been fine in the past with just dressing guys like Hollweg and Avery.

2. I've always seen Byers as more of a replacement for Hollweg, not as our next enforcer. He's a big, pesky, guy who checks, fights and brings some offense to the table. I'd compare him more to a Darren McCarty type (if all goes well),

I'm not in favor of signing Orr to a huge contract, but to not explore the possibility seems rather foolish to me.

The guy can't score, but he wasn't a liability either on the fourth line. I see alot of areas to fix on this team. To me, a fourth line forward slot wasn't high on that list.
Another terrific post.

Byers is hardly a replacement for Orr, unless "can fight" and "fights well" are determined to be the same thing. Byers can fight. He's a good middleweight. But if anyone thinks that he's capable of going at it with Brashear, Boogaard, et al, then you're crazy. He's not an "enforcer," at least in the typical sense.

I don't know all the details of why Colton is headed out. Is it financial? System based? I don't know, which is why I'm not pissing and moaning. It just seems that, for a reasonable price, we should make the effort to keep Orr around, even if we only need him for 40 games or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by we want cup View Post
So you think that Sjo-Betts-Byers would score more than Sjo-Betts-Orr enough to merit a substantial increase in ES TOI?

Based on what? There is almost no evidence that Byers will be able to produce offense at the NHL level yet. AHL numbers? That's all well and good, but Blair Betts put up 20G and 29A in 69 games in 2001-2002 (better than Byers' best AHL season yet, despite playing in fewer games). In other words, there is really no proof yet that Byers would be any more offensively capable than, or even as offensively capable as Blair Betts.

So let's say we let Colton walk. We're losing a top 5 heavyweight for the chance of scoring 5 more goals and a little more ice time for the fourth line? Sorry if I'm not thrilled at the notion.

Now please don't misconstrue this as me disliking Byers. I like the kid a lot, and think he has a future with this team, but Colton Orr's replacement he is not.
I agree. People ought to keep in mind that Byers, when drafted, wasn't really considered to have much offensive potential at the professional level. He's a guy that scored 48 points in his best Junior season. He has surprised a lot of people with his play in Hartford, myself included, and there's a chance that he can continue to contribute offensively in the NHL one day--BUT, there's a greater chance, IMO, that he doesn't contribute much of anything at the NHL level.

I like Dane Byers. I really do. But I think people need to tone their expectations for him down just a notch. Until he proves he can score at the NHL level, he;s just another guy with decent offensive stats in the AHL.


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06-22-2009, 08:13 AM
  #125
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KO

I was there when Orr knocked out Rupp and skated by the Devil bench challenging anyone. You didn't see Rupp or other Devil cheap shot a Ranger the rest of the way. He is a must needed silencer and must stay.

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