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Old
06-24-2009, 01:44 PM
  #26
NobodyBeatsTheWiz
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I was more just saying that Giroux had an amazing impact on the Flyers, and did Karl do the same? other than being good for his age/position?

I like Alzner a lot, but I don't want to be called a homer just because one Caps fan hasn't seen enough of Giroux play yet to judge.
Even assuming Giroux is a better player/prospect, the difference between him and Alzner isn't anywhere close to what was proposed in the original post.

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06-24-2009, 01:49 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I was more just saying that Giroux had an amazing impact on the Flyers, and did Karl do the same? other than being good for his age/position?

I like Alzner a lot, but I don't want to be called a homer just because one Caps fan hasn't seen enough of Giroux play yet to judge.
Out of Alzner's 30 games played I'd say he was our #1-3 defenceman in 22-23 of those games. Alzner got called up when Green, Poti and Schultz were battling injuries. So he was one of our top defenceman for a little while in the season. In the games he played he made an impact.

And if Giroux had an "amazing impact" for the Flyers, then why did he only play 15 minutes a night?

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06-24-2009, 01:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Even assuming Giroux is a better player/prospect, the difference between him and Alzner isn't anywhere close to what was proposed in the original post.
What do you think is a realistic difference between them?

Even surrounded by offensive players like Carter, Richards, Gagne and Briere Giroux really stood out to me during the last half of the year and their playoff series. Can't deny that he has elite vision and is already a very good all around player at 21. We have no projected 2nd line center even approaching his caliber.

I think it's an overpayment too, but the kind that would be worth it for us, and the kind that would be necessary to get Flyers to part with him. Possibly gets done without either Fleischmann or the 1st. Not to mention he was tied with Richards for most points and had 2nd highest +/- in their series against the Pens, and stood out more than anyone else during that series.

Also, I really don't see Alzner as having more of an impact for us Grebeshkov for the next 3 years except for the cap hit, unless he starts performing way beyond expectations. Alzner's got excellent fundamentals and a rare talent for defensive stickwork, but Grebeshkov is the ideal 2nd pairing puckmover. Not a game-changer but very good at rushing and making outlet passes and consistent enough defensively not to be a liability. Hard to ignore that he was +12 and put up 39 points on a team with a below average top 6 that got shelled on a regular basis.

Overpaying for a player doesn't necessarily mean you lose a trade. Both of the guys coming back would stay around for a long time and most likely become our 6th and 7th most important players (Ovechkin, Backstrom, Green, Semin, Varlamov, Giroux, Grebeshkov).


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06-24-2009, 02:04 PM
  #29
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That would be such a bad trade. Keep in mind GMGM is really trying to get a home-grown team to win the Cup, which at the rate we're going could definitely happen. There's a reason all of our guys go through Hershey and then come here and then the really successful coaches come with them.

Bob Woods is going to bring hopefully Alzner and Carlson with them. The Bears were very strong on the blue line in the playoffs and I expect nothing less of them next year. Alzner was by far one of the best defensemen the Caps had this season and Carlson looks incredibly promising. They are both very smart and have a good eye for every inch of the ice.

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06-24-2009, 02:09 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
What do you think is a realistic difference between them?

Even surrounded by offensive players like Carter, Richards, Gagne and Briere Giroux really stood out to me during the last half of the year and their playoff series. Can't deny that he has elite vision and is already a very good all around player at 21. We have no projected 2nd line center even approaching his caliber.

I think it's an overpayment too, but the kind that would be worth it for us, and the kind that would be necessary to get Flyers to part with him. Possibly gets done without either Fleischmann or the 1st. Not to mention he was tied with Richards for most points and had 2nd highest +/- in their series against the Pens, and stood out more than anyone else during that series.

Also, I really don't see Alzner as having more of an impact for us Grebeshkov for the next 3 years except for the cap hit, unless he starts performing way beyond expectations. Alzner's got excellent fundamentals and a rare talent for defensive stickwork, but Grebeshkov is the ideal 2nd pairing puckmover. Not a game-changer but very good at rushing and making outlet passes and consistent enough defensively not to be a liability. Hard to ignore that he was +12 and put up 39 points on a team with a below average top 6 that got shelled on a regular basis.

Overpaying for a player doesn't necessarily mean you lose a trade. Both of the guys coming back would stay around for a long time and most likely become our 6th and 7th most important players (Ovechkin, Backstrom, Green, Semin, Varlamov, Giroux, Grebeshkov).
I actually think fair value might possible be Giroux + for Alzner. You're insane if you think Giroux is worth Alzner, Flash, and a 1st. That could probably get you Ilya Kovalchuk.

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06-24-2009, 02:13 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Even assuming Giroux is a better player/prospect, the difference between him and Alzner isn't anywhere close to what was proposed in the original post.
I totally agree. I admitted that in my original post...there's no way Wsh even considers that deal

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06-24-2009, 02:13 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by gocaps99 View Post
That would be such a bad trade. Keep in mind GMGM is really trying to get a home-grown team to win the Cup, which at the rate we're going could definitely happen. There's a reason all of our guys go through Hershey and then come here and then the really successful coaches come with them.

Bob Woods is going to bring hopefully Alzner and Carlson with them. The Bears were very strong on the blue line in the playoffs and I expect nothing less of them next year. Alzner was by far one of the best defensemen the Caps had this season and Carlson looks incredibly promising. They are both very smart and have a good eye for every inch of the ice.
The only really successful player that came up from Hershey so far was Green and Varlamov, though the latter isn't really a Hershey guy as much as a Lokomotiv guy who was using Hershey as a pit stop. Laich to a lesser extent, but players like him can still be found in any farm. Guys like Gordon, Morrisson, Schultz, Fleischmann, Fehr, Steckel can be found on any team in spades.

There's only one team in the league that can expect to win a cup with almost entirely homegrown guys, and that's the team that drafts guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg with throwaway picks like it's nothing. Even the Penguins, a team with 4 consecutive top 2 picks constantly scramble to bring in talent from elsewhere. And our farm system is nowhere near

I'm optimistic about Alzner and Carlson, but we're not going anywhere until we have a more than acceptable 2nd line center and at least one player resembling a top 6 RW other than Laich. It's not like I want to throw any of our guys away for playoff rentals. Just to have established young players on positions that we're weak in.

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06-24-2009, 02:14 PM
  #33
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Giroux is a winger, not a center i'm pretty sure, and the caps have gustaffson already. First 2 are overpayment by the caps, the 3rd i think is something the leafs may consider, but different compensation then lepisto and a 3rd.

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06-24-2009, 02:18 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
And if Giroux had an "amazing impact" for the Flyers, then why did he only play 15 minutes a night?
Bobby Ryan also played 15 mins per game...

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06-24-2009, 02:18 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
Out of Alzner's 30 games played I'd say he was our #1-3 defenceman in 22-23 of those games. Alzner got called up when Green, Poti and Schultz were battling injuries. So he was one of our top defenceman for a little while in the season. In the games he played he made an impact.

And if Giroux had an "amazing impact" for the Flyers, then why did he only play 15 minutes a night?
I apologize when I say this, and I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think too much of the Caps defense to begin with, so if Alzner was one of your top 3 D-Men..it doesn't surprise me really. And if he was that good, what's up with Wsh's management not keeping him up? That's just stupid.

Why did Giroux only play 15 minutes? Do you know who we have on offense besides him? He had to be restricted to the 3rd line because the first two were full. Carter's line wasn't getting broken up, and Richards' wasn't either...it was Giroux playing with guys like Asham and Powe for the most part and still looking like a champ.

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06-24-2009, 02:19 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Schenn 4 Calder View Post
Giroux is a winger, not a center i'm pretty sure, and the caps have gustaffson already. First 2 are overpayment by the caps, the 3rd i think is something the leafs may consider, but different compensation then lepisto and a 3rd.
He played center all year for us (Giroux). He's naturally a winger, but he was shifted to center this season.

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06-24-2009, 02:19 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I actually think fair value might possible be Giroux + for Alzner. You're insane if you think Giroux is worth Alzner, Flash, and a 1st. That could probably get you Ilya Kovalchuk.
Ask any Atlanta fan about that.

Giroux stood out on a team with one of the most stacked offenses in the league. Alzner was relatively consistent and showed refreshing defensive awareness, but was average in terms of rushing and playing the body. Obviously he's gonna improve and become a stud, but based on what each has shown so far and our needs I'd take Giroux without a 2nd thought. He's 21 years old and played nearly on Richards' level in the playoffs for god's sakes.

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06-24-2009, 02:20 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I apologize when I say this, and I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but I don't think too much of the Caps defense to begin with, so if Alzner was one of your top 3 D-Men..it doesn't surprise me really. And if he was that good, what's up with Wsh's management not keeping him up? That's just stupid.
It was a salary cap issue....and yes, I agree it was stupid.

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06-24-2009, 02:21 PM
  #39
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The only really successful player that came up from Hershey so far was Green and Varlamov, though the latter isn't really a Hershey guy as much as a Lokomotiv guy who was using Hershey as a pit stop. Laich to a lesser extent, but players like him can still be found in any farm. Guys like Gordon, Morrisson, Schultz, Fleischmann, Fehr, Steckel can be found on any team in spades.

There's only one team in the league that can expect to win a cup with almost entirely homegrown guys, and that's the team that drafts guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg with throwaway picks like it's nothing. Even the Penguins, a team with 4 consecutive top 2 picks constantly scramble to bring in talent from elsewhere. And our farm system is nowhere near

I'm optimistic about Alzner and Carlson, but we're not going anywhere until we have a more than acceptable 2nd line center and at least one player resembling a top 6 RW other than Laich. It's not like I want to throw any of our guys away for playoff rentals. Just to have established young players on positions that we're weak in.
It's definitely true that we've been waiting years for Flash and Fehr to mature but they really haven't. They're incredibly streaky and their bad streaks are much longer then their good streaks. I really thought Flash was going to have his breakout year this time but then he stopped playing in December. Summer starts in June.

The Penguins have to scramble because Fleury isn't always consistent and they have two 100+ pt scorers and then 1 more above 50 and then no one. I would take the Caps' four 70+ pt scorers over two 100+ pt scorers any day - it's the defense that has been holding us back.

Laich and Steckel are on the 3rd line with Bradley, yes? That line was really solid in the playoffs. I think they are starting to find some chemistry as a really strong 3rd line. But you're right there have only been a few guys (you forgot Neuvirth) that have really been good in the NHL.

But Flash and Fehr have good trade value because they are clearly good players but they haven't found their own in Washington.

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06-24-2009, 02:22 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
I'm probably gonna be flamed to hell and fellow Caps fans will probably put me on ignore for this, but here they are.

Karl Alzner, Tomas Fleischmann, 1st for Claude Giroux - gives Washington a long-term center for Semin who is a good all-around player and would become a part of the core. Gives the Flyers a great defensive prospect to add to Sbisa and Parent, a cheap top 6 winger is a bargain for what he can produce, and a 1st in a deep draft to possibly move into top 15.

Michal Neuvirth, Shaone Morrisson, 2nd for Denis Grebeshkov - Capitals get a 2nd pairing puckmover who is comfortable in his own end as well, something that I think is their most pressing need after an elite 2nd line center. He's also young and I believe can potentially become close to a Markov caliber defenseman. Edmonton gets a blue chip netminding prospect, a serviceable stay at home defenseman (which they lack) and a 2nd round pick in a deep draft. If this is completely unbalanced, replace Morrisson with Osala, though I think it's fair.

Michael Nylander, Sami Lepisto, 3rd '10 for Jeff Finger, - swap of bad contracts in Nylander and Finger, but Nylander's is worse and, even if he's overpaid Capitals could use a shutdown defenseman of Finger's caliber. Toronto gets a makeshift 1st line center for the next 2 years who could mentor MSP if Toronto ends up drafting him (he did a pretty good job with Backstrom). Lepisto and a 3rd should be enough to make up the difference, since Lepisto is a pretty good offensive D prospect (always produced immediately when called up) and Toronto seems to be short on offensive D prospects.

Just want to see if those trades would be balanced. Capitals would be left with a lineup

Ovechkin - Backstrom - ??? (Kotalik is only natural RW I can think of who would be affordable and not look out of place)
Semin - Giroux - Laich (complete 2nd line, substantial upgrade from projected current line of Semin - ??? - ???)
Bourque - Steckel - Fehr (looked good in Hershey)
Clark - Gordon - Bradley

Green Poti
Grebeshkov Finger
Pothier/Jurcina Erskine

Theodore
Varlamov

Which I personally believe is a significantly upgraded lineup even with losses of Fedorov and Kozlov factored in, and can be a consistent lineup for a long time (Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin, Giroux and Laich being mainstays, as well as Green and Grebeshkov, with Carlson coming up to replace Poti or Finger when time is right).

Now, obviously there is no chance of any of these happening in real life (welcome to 98% of trade proposals). So flame and flame hard.
W-T-F?!

You are a caps fan?!?!?!!?!!?!?


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06-24-2009, 02:22 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Schenn 4 Calder View Post
Giroux is a winger, not a center i'm pretty sure, and the caps have gustaffson already. First 2 are overpayment by the caps, the 3rd i think is something the leafs may consider, but different compensation then lepisto and a 3rd.
And he was shifted to center on a team that's got Carter, Richards and Briere for center depth because his playmaking skills were being wasted at wing. That should tell you something.

And if he for some reason goes back to RW for the Capitals... boo hoo. It's not like we have even one RW half as good as him.

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06-24-2009, 02:23 PM
  #42
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It was a salary cap issue....and yes, I agree it was stupid.
Yeah it just sounds dumb to me. The Flyers had a cap issue with Giroux, too, but they knew enough that he was more important than a Glen Metropolit ( who was not at all what he was projected to be), so we waived him to make room.

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06-24-2009, 02:24 PM
  #43
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It's true that we need our offensive depth to grow or mature, but we have so many problems on the defensive end that it's scary. That's why the Alzner trade makes no sense.

And also did you say him, flash, and a 1st round draft pick for Giroux? Or did you say either or? We could get anyone in the league for those 3.

And it was too bad about Alzner because I think he would have been great in the playoffs.

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06-24-2009, 02:27 PM
  #44
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And also did you say him, flash, and a 1st round draft pick for Giroux? Or did you say either or? We could get anyone in the league for those 3.
Want me to name the players you can't get for that package?

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06-24-2009, 02:28 PM
  #45
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Yeah it just sounds dumb to me. The Flyers had a cap issue with Giroux, too, but they knew enough that he was more important than a Glen Metropolit ( who was not at all what he was projected to be), so we waived him to make room.
I think the Caps might have considered the same type of move...if Alzner was a forward. Waiving someone on an already weak defensive group was not really the way to go when the cap space ran out since the extra bodies were needed...and Alzner was still waiver exempt.

It's going to be another issue this season as well as the same top 7 from last year have the potential to be back with Pothier being healthy from the start. Alzner could once again find himself in Hershey to start the year if there is another logjam of mediocre non waiver exempt players on the NHL roster.

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06-24-2009, 02:29 PM
  #46
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It's definitely true that we've been waiting years for Flash and Fehr to mature but they really haven't. They're incredibly streaky and their bad streaks are much longer then their good streaks. I really thought Flash was going to have his breakout year this time but then he stopped playing in December. Summer starts in June.

The Penguins have to scramble because Fleury isn't always consistent and they have two 100+ pt scorers and then 1 more above 50 and then no one. I would take the Caps' four 70+ pt scorers over two 100+ pt scorers any day - it's the defense that has been holding us back.

Laich and Steckel are on the 3rd line with Bradley, yes? That line was really solid in the playoffs. I think they are starting to find some chemistry as a really strong 3rd line. But you're right there have only been a few guys (you forgot Neuvirth) that have really been good in the NHL.

But Flash and Fehr have good trade value because they are clearly good players but they haven't found their own in Washington.
Laich Steckel Bradley was our first good checking line since Kono Halpern Dahlen, but Laich would have to play wing for us in the top 6 because he's the best winger (left or right) we have outside of Ovechkin or Semin. Ideally we'd have 2 better or same caliber right wingers and keep Laich with Steckel and hopefully someone with more hockey sense than Bradley but who plays the same kind of game.

Pretty much all teams scramble because that's what it takes to push a team over the edge. The Wings just scrambled at the beginning of the year when they signed Hossa.

And Neuvirth is good, but I'd rather have a good young top 6 forward or young top 4 defenseman than 2 good goalie prospects,. Especially since we still have Holtby.

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06-24-2009, 02:30 PM
  #47
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Want me to name the players you can't get for that package?
A top prospect defenseman, a guy that should eventually have his breakout year, AND a first round draft pick? Sure you couldn't get anyone, but there are a lot of better guys than Giroux that you could get (don't get me wrong I watched a lot of Flyers' games this year and I really like him but there are more experienced and better guys you can get for those three)

And I think we'll definitely package Neuvirth or Varly because we don't want to end up with two top prospects for the #1 goalie spot. But I don't think that'll happen this year. We need to be careful with them because goaltending was our single weakest link this season. Sometimes with a shaky defense your goalie will steal a game but at no point during the regular season could we do that.

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06-24-2009, 02:30 PM
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Yeah it just sounds dumb to me. The Flyers had a cap issue with Giroux, too, but they knew enough that he was more important than a Glen Metropolit ( who was not at all what he was projected to be), so we waived him to make room.
Didn't you also downgrade from Upshall and a 2nd to Carcillo for that reason?

I've watched a lot of Flyers games but clearly not as many as you have. What's your evaluation of Giroux?

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06-24-2009, 02:33 PM
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A top prospect defenseman, a guy that should eventually have his breakout year, AND a first round draft pick? Sure you couldn't get anyone, but there are a lot of better guys than Giroux that you could get (don't get me wrong I watched a lot of Flyers' games this year and I really like him but there are more experienced and better guys you can get for those three)

And I think we'll definitely package Neuvirth or Varly because we don't want to end up with two top prospects for the #1 goalie spot. But I don't think that'll happen this year. We need to be careful with them because goaltending was our single weakest link this season
Such as?

Keep in mind that he made a substantial all-around impact on the Flyers roster as a 21 year old rookie forward and went beyond expectations in all aspects of the game.

I personally think Alzner and either Fleischmann or 1st is fair (though some think Alzner > Giroux and I understand that), but it would take overpayment to get him.

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06-24-2009, 02:34 PM
  #50
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Didn't you also downgrade from Upshall and a 2nd to Carcillo for that reason?

I've watched a lot of Flyers games but clearly not as many as you have. What's your evaluation of Giroux?
Actually...Flyers fans still have no idea why we downgraded from Upshall to Carcillo. Personally, I get it...He's slightly cheaper (like 400K), and I think his ceiling is just as high (Call me crazy, right?). The 2nd round pick is the thing that really has me/Flyers fans puzzled....


My evaluation of Giroux is that he's the best playmaker we have, by far. He's shocked the hell out of me, that's for sure. I knew he'd be good, but not this fast. He's actually kind of a little hitter, too. His vision has people in Philly thinking of Forsberg again (which is silly), but he has that special ability to read the players on the ice. He and Briere actually looked really good together, particurally in the playoffs.

Anyone would be glad to have him, and I don't know if I would do a Alzner for Giroux straight up deal..it's a tough call buddy.

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