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Old
06-24-2009, 06:05 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
Yeah, a Kessel deal would cost something like Alzner + Carlson for Kessel + pick, which is a very short conversation from Washington's end. I personally have no idea why we'd want to go after him since we already have the 2 expensive token supersnipers a team needs.
you're a Caps fan, and you think THAT deal is what it would take to get Kessel?

come on dude, seriously?

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06-24-2009, 06:43 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BTD5504 View Post
you're a Caps fan, and you think THAT deal is what it would take to get Kessel?

come on dude, seriously?
Alright, I'll play along. What else can you come up with (you know, other than Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin or Green) that, if you were Boston's GM and looking out for Boston's interests, you'd go for.

Keep in mind that they value him more than we value Semin and he is their only true sniper.

Never said I'd ever do that for Kessel, in case you weren't paying attention. He's the last thing we need.

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06-24-2009, 07:03 PM
  #78
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Why would you deal from an area of weakness(mobile defensive dman), for an area of strength(offensive forwards)? Alzner will likely be our most versatile defender next year as well.

The caps were 3rd(2 goals shy of 2nd) in total goals scored. They were 19th in goals against. But they should deal a defensive dman for an offensive forward

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06-24-2009, 07:29 PM
  #79
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Old
06-24-2009, 07:32 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by backs4mvp View Post
Why would you deal from an area of weakness(mobile defensive dman), for an area of strength(offensive forwards)? Alzner will likely be our most versatile defender next year as well.

The caps were 3rd(2 goals shy of 2nd) in total goals scored. They were 19th in goals against. But they should deal a defensive dman for an offensive forward
Because top 6 centers is our biggest area of weakness (we have one and a bunch of average prospects that would be lucky). Cup winners almost always have 2 elite centers if not more. Crosby-Malkin-Staal. Datsyuk-Zetterberg/Filpulla. Getzlaf-MacDonald. Staal-Weight. Lecavalier-Richards. Madden-Gomez (back when Madden was good and NJ had the best defensive core in the league). You can go on and on back in time.

Not to mention the original set of deals was structured so that we get Grebeshkov, who would probably be more impactful for us than Alzner for the next 2 years at least and also has a high ceiling, and Neuvirth is the guy that really takes the fall. And our "position of strength" at forward is deceiving. Take away one of our 3 elite forwards and we become a 1 line team with 3 very average lines supporting them. Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis, San Jose have offensive depth. We have 3 elite forwards, an ok forward in Laich and the rest completely average if that.


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Old
06-24-2009, 08:57 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BTD5504 View Post
he may be a better player than Giroux, and he may not.

for the Caps, he is a better player. widely regarded as the most NHL ready defenseman in his draft, and he has been forced to the minors b/c of salary cap restraints. he is the player we need, if he pans out like he is supposed to.

between Green, Alzner and Carlson the Caps blue-line future is very bright...we can find a 2nd line center elsewhere...without giving up our best assets.
If you think I undervalue Alzner, you're sorely mistaken. There's not many players in the NHL I'd readily deal Alzner for. Certainly not playoff rentals, overly expensive players, one dimensional players or players with questionable work ethic. It's just that I have a very strong feeling that by next year's trade deadline Alzner for Giroux is gonna be as realistic as Alzner for Ryan was at this year's.

Alzner will be a good defenseman, but it will at least a couple of years before he becomes "the player we need". His game at this point is very raw. He's nowhere near the crease-clearing type we constantly pine for (though that's not his game, and that's completely fine) and he's not an excellent neutral zone/breakout player. For the next 2 years his impact will be similar to that of Poti, which is something we need, but I think Giroux would have a greater impact. I'm convinced that, even though his skill and discipline aren't a secret anymore, Giroux is gonna surprise everybody next year. And if that trade would go down I'd try dealing for another defenseman as stated.

It certainly will be interesting to come back in a year and see where Giroux will be relative to Alzner.

And center depth is as important to cup-winning teams as defensive depth, if not moreso. At least top 6 center depth is.

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06-24-2009, 10:06 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
Why would you want Heatley over Giroux? We don't need more left wingers, especially one dimensional ones who cost 7.5 million and want to be traded each time the wind doesn't blow their way. There's this thing called the salary cap you know.
I know this wasnt directed at me but I have to say that as good as Giroux looks to be I also dont think the Caps are in need of a player with 6 post season games under his belt

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06-24-2009, 10:13 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Dr Quincy View Post
I'm surprised at the Caps fans who think Alzner > Giroux. You guys can't possibly be THAT homerish.
not sure how homerish that line of thinking is....both are ranked in the top 10 on HF's latest rankings with Alzner slightly higher

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06-24-2009, 10:14 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
Well that defence you don't think to much of made it farther then the Flyers, so I guess they aren't that bad.
We played the Stanley Cup Champions in the first round, you barely squeaked it out against the Rangers, and THEN lost to the same team we lost to.

Who are you talking **** to? lol. You just made yourself look amazingly silly.

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06-24-2009, 10:17 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
Well that defence you don't think to much of made it farther then the Flyers, so I guess they aren't that bad.
It's so hard to take anything else you say seriously after this gem. It just wreaks of an agenda.

Pascal Dupuis made it two rounds longer than Ovechkin did, so I suppose he's a damn good player, right? Better than Ovechkin, no doubt.

The Flyers' defense (prospects excluded) is astronomically better than the Capitals'.

Timonen = Green
Coburn > Poti
Carle > Morrissonn
Parent > Jurcina
Alberts > Erskine
Jones < Pothier

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Old
06-24-2009, 10:23 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Backstrom #19 View Post
It's not just Caps fans....
Giroux is better than Alzner right now and has more trade value.

Alzner is a great, great prospect, but Giroux is a very good player who has already proven himself big-time in the NHL.

Can you see the difference between the two?

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Old
06-24-2009, 10:25 PM
  #87
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I know this wasnt directed at me but I have to say that as good as Giroux looks to be I also dont think the Caps are in need of a player with 6 post season games under his belt
We're in need of a capable 2nd line center. Preferably a young and good one who'd serve that role for a decade. Preferably someone who isn't soft, is defensively responsible, and at the same time be good enough of a playmaker to service Semin adequately, and doesn't buckle under playoff pressure. The fact Giroux's only had 6 post-season games is understandable since he's just turned 21, and his team was netminded by Biron, and they went up against the eventual cup champions after all. And, even if you buy into that argument (which I don't, give me Shane Doan over Alex Kovalev any day of the week heading into the playoffs), that's 6 to Alzner's 0.

And if half the Flyers took their game to his level, he'd have much more than 6 post-season games of experience under his belt.

In 6 games, he tied Richards for most points and had 6 better +/- then him, finishing tied for 2nd in that regard. Obviously, small sample size, anomalies, blah blah blah, but looking at his play it's clearly no fluke. At least, if it's a fluke, it's a fluke that's been going on for 40 games or so. He sees the ice as well as Briere does, some Flyers fans think even better. He's defensively responsible, takes a hit to make a play, and doesn't mind working along the boards or occasionally nailing somebody. All while being 21.

I'd bet $100 right now that he's gonna have a Bobby Ryan type breakout next year and become officially untouchable.

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06-24-2009, 10:27 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
Giroux is better than Alzner right now and has more trade value.

Alzner is a great, great prospect, but Giroux is a very good player who has already proven himself big-time in the NHL.

Can you see the difference between the two?
That's the best way I can explain it.

Both are GREAT prospects, with amazing POTENTIAL for both...but thus far, Giroux has shown that he is more than just potential.

Alzner hasn't done anything special, Giroux has been the Flyers' best player at times...That's a huge task to ask of a forward when they're behind Richards, Carter, Hartnell, Lupul, Gagne...

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06-24-2009, 10:27 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
Giroux is better than Alzner right now and has more trade value.

Alzner is a great, great prospect, but Giroux is a very good player who has already proven himself big-time in the NHL.

Can you see the difference between the two?
Do you think something like Alzner + Fleischmann/1st for Giroux could realistically be done from the Flyers perspective.

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06-24-2009, 10:30 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post

And if half the Flyers took their game to his level, he'd have much more than 6 post-season games of experience under his belt.

In 6 games, he tied Richards for most points and had 6 better +/- then him, finishing tied for 2nd in that regard. Obviously, small sample size, anomalies, blah blah blah, but looking at his play it's clearly no fluke. At least, if it's a fluke, it's a fluke that's been going on for 40 games or so. He sees the ice as well as Briere does, some Flyers fans think even better. He's defensively responsible, takes a hit to make a play, and doesn't mind working along the boards or occasionally nailing somebody. All while being 21.

I'd bet $100 right now that he's gonna have a Bobby Ryan type breakout next year and become officially untouchable.
I can't even buy into that one....I'm not decided yet. I love Giroux's game, but I'm not sold on him being a sure future All-Star ofcourse....I just can't wait to see how he turns out.

What I love about him that has me favoring him above the rest as players to watch on the Flyers, is the ability to make a pass to open ice and then a teammate appears suddenly to where he threw the puck to... That's something we Flyer fans haven't seen since Forsberg was here.

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06-24-2009, 10:32 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
Do you think something like Alzner + Fleischmann/1st for Giroux could realistically be done from the Flyers perspective.
I think Alzner and the 1st is overpayment.

Alzner and Fleischmann is fair value-wise, but the Caps probably shouldn't trade Alzner. They should just draft Ferraro or someone else who can take a shot at being a second line center and hang onto Alzner. Free agency would also work.

Their defense is terrible. Alzner is an important part of changing that, I'd have to think.

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06-24-2009, 10:37 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Alex28 View Post
We're in need of a capable 2nd line center. Preferably a young and good one who'd serve that role for a decade. Preferably someone who isn't soft, is defensively responsible, and at the same time be good enough of a playmaker to service Semin adequately, and doesn't buckle under playoff pressure. The fact Giroux's only had 6 post-season games is understandable since he's just turned 21, and his team was netminded by Biron, and they went up against the eventual cup champions after all. And, even if you buy into that argument (which I don't, give me Shane Doan over Alex Kovalev any day of the week heading into the playoffs), that's 6 to Alzner's 0.

And if half the Flyers took their game to his level, he'd have much more than 6 post-season games of experience under his belt.

In 6 games, he tied Richards for most points and had 6 better +/- then him, finishing tied for 2nd in that regard. Obviously, small sample size, anomalies, blah blah blah, but looking at his play it's clearly no fluke. At least, if it's a fluke, it's a fluke that's been going on for 40 games or so. He sees the ice as well as Briere does, some Flyers fans think even better. He's defensively responsible, takes a hit to make a play, and doesn't mind working along the boards or occasionally nailing somebody. All while being 21.

I'd bet $100 right now that he's gonna have a Bobby Ryan type breakout next year and become officially untouchable.

im sure he's untouchable now....and again, he doesnt address what this team needs most...and thats veteran play at certain positions. He has less than 50 games in the NHL....and while im pretty certain he will have a fine career its hardly "proven" in my book

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06-24-2009, 10:38 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I can't even buy into that one....I'm not decided yet. I love Giroux's game, but I'm not sold on him being a sure future All-Star ofcourse....I just can't wait to see how he turns out.

What I love about him that has me favoring him above the rest as players to watch on the Flyers, is the ability to make a pass to open ice and then a teammate appears suddenly to where he threw the puck to... That's something we Flyer fans haven't seen since Forsberg was here.
I am probably over-reaching but generally I can predict draft gems/people breaking out relatively well. I've seen him play a good amount and see traits that you rarely see at 21 years old even in players who become all stars later on. Remember watching Lecavalier when he was 21, who was better offensively but nowhere near as complete as Giroux is right now. All in all, I'd make that sort of bet in real life without hesitation and pay up if I'm wrong.

Personally, where would you rank him compared to where Carter and Richards were when they were the same age (I know, they're all different types of players, but still)?

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06-24-2009, 10:41 PM
  #94
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Personally, where would you rank him compared to where Carter and Richards were when they were the same age (I know, they're all different types of players, but still)?
Miles ahead of Richards and Carter. I know they both got 20 goals in their first seasons, but I wasn't THAT impressed, and the following season they were pretty bad (injuries contributed, but still bad). I actually HATED Carter until last season, and was upset Kaberle turned down the trade with Philly during the season before last's deadline.

But yeah, Giroux is way ahead of those two as far as development. Not even close.

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06-24-2009, 10:45 PM
  #95
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The first 2 deals are not that bad. Bit of overpayment for Giroux but you got to pay to get in this world

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06-24-2009, 10:46 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
I think Alzner and the 1st is overpayment.

Alzner and Fleischmann is fair value-wise, but the Caps probably shouldn't trade Alzner. They should just draft Ferraro or someone else who can take a shot at being a second line center and hang onto Alzner. Free agency would also work.

Their defense is terrible. Alzner is an important part of changing that, I'd have to think.
The problem with that is that, even if Ferraro does end up panning out as a 2nd line center caliber player (and you know the odds of that), it will take 2-3 years at minimum, realistically. Hell, we can just wait for Gustafsson in that case. With trading for Giroux we already get high a caliber 2nd line center, now and for the future.

And as far as our defense, when we played you we had Poti, Erskine and Morrisson seriously injured, and Green should not have been let on the ice in anything other than a 3rd pairing role, period. Defense is not as good as it should be, but in reality it's not nearly as bad as it was against the Penguins, and the large PP discrepancy between the teams had a lot to do with it looking like crap as well. Even without Alzner we have Carlson (who I see as being nearly as technically sound as Alzner but bringing a more physical element and better burst speed), and Alzner's contributions for the next 2-3 years while he's developing are gonna be similar to what Poti brings now. He's not gonna jump in and dominate like Bogosian or Schenn. He's still very raw, though I believe he will be a top 15 defenseman in the league by the time he's 24-25.

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06-24-2009, 10:47 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
Miles ahead of Richards and Carter. I know they both got 20 goals in their first seasons, but I wasn't THAT impressed, and the following season they were pretty bad (injuries contributed, but still bad). I actually HATED Carter until last season, and was upset Kaberle turned down the trade with Philly during the season before last's deadline.

But yeah, Giroux is way ahead of those two as far as development. Not even close.
That's what I thought as well. He doesn't seem to have the skating issues and semi-tunnel vision that originally held Richards back and all the... Carter issues that held Carter back.

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06-24-2009, 10:50 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
Giroux is better than Alzner right now and has more trade value.

Alzner is a great, great prospect, but Giroux is a very good player who has already proven himself big-time in the NHL.

Can you see the difference between the two?
44 games is proven "big-time"?

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06-24-2009, 10:51 PM
  #99
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That's what I thought as well. He doesn't seem to have the skating issues and semi-tunnel vision that originally held Richards back and all the... Carter issues that held Carter back.
Ahahahahah. Reading "Carter issues that held back Carter" had me cracking up.

I blame Carter's problem's on the famous cop-out of "bigger players take longer to develop".

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06-24-2009, 10:53 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Heaters not lazt View Post
44 games is proven "big-time"?
He played pretty awesome in those 44. Are you going to say Bobby Ryan hasn't proven himself as well? (64 games as opposed to 44, but if Giroux had 64 you'd say the same thing.

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