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Balsillie/Phoenix Part IX: 'Dorf on Hockey

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06-29-2009, 02:08 AM
  #251
Brodie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorsk11 View Post
Hey Ghost!! Which exact game were the pictures you posted of jobing.com at a game during the regular season?? The scoreboard clearly shows the Coyotes vs Kings...With the Coyotes up 3-1 in the third period.

I'm not calling ******** on you! But - We played the Kings 3 times at home and at no time was the score 3-1 in the Yotes favor.

I'm pretty sure the pictures you are showing are from a prior season, the pre-season, or a Rookie game vs the LA Kings. You mentioned attendance announced was 16K

When exactly was that game?
He never said they were from last season, just from a game at the Job. Which, to be fair, they were.

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06-29-2009, 02:16 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
He never said they were from last season, just from a game at the Job. Which, to be fair, they were.
He didn't say this season...just a regular season game......I'm questioning what game - with an attendance announced at 16k.

He said Regular season....I attended about 36 of the 41 home games each of the last three years.......The pictures look like a crowd from a preseason game or maybe a Tuesday night game late in the year....Regardless there is no way 16K announced.

I just wanted to know when it was. He suggests this is what a crowd looks like with 16K announced....It is not. It doesn't look like a crowd at an anounced 12K fans.

It is a game at the Job absolutely....He put it out there....He states 16K....Regular season game.... I think he is being quite misleading.....I want to know when it was.

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06-29-2009, 11:22 AM
  #253
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Here is an interesting aside on the quality of the management of the PHO club under Moyes.

Under Moyes, the jobing.com arena had 46 non-hockey events.

I took a look at the Tampa Bay arena for comparison (in connection with a discussion I was having on Tom Benjamin's blog). They have over 150 non-hockey events per year. By way of example, they are currently in the midst of a lengthy stay of 16 performances by the Cirque du Soleil.

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06-29-2009, 11:38 AM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Here is an interesting aside on the quality of the management of the PHO club under Moyes.

Under Moyes, the jobing.com arena had 46 non-hockey events.

I took a look at the Tampa Bay arena for comparison (in connection with a discussion I was having on Tom Benjamin's blog). They have over 150 non-hockey events per year. By way of example, they are currently in the midst of a lengthy stay of 16 performances by the Cirque du Soleil.
Doing some calculations from figures in old AZ Republic and ESPN articles from 2006, I believe the city of Glendale and Elman jointly projected 100-120 non-hockey events per year when the arena was constructed.

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06-29-2009, 11:38 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Here is an interesting aside on the quality of the management of the PHO club under Moyes.

Under Moyes, the jobing.com arena had 46 non-hockey events.

I took a look at the Tampa Bay arena for comparison (in connection with a discussion I was having on Tom Benjamin's blog). They have over 150 non-hockey events per year. By way of example, they are currently in the midst of a lengthy stay of 16 performances by the Cirque du Soleil.
Is there not another 16,000 seat arena (maybe 2 others) in Phoenix that gives Jobing competition for these events. Then you need to factor in all the refrain about how no one wants to drive to Jobing to attend any event which makes it's doubly difficult to book events.

* I'm just going by a radio interview with Jerry Colangelo in which he stated there is numerous venues in Phoenix which makes operating an arena difficult to turn a profit!

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06-29-2009, 11:45 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
I don't believe that infers that, otherwise 4.3 conflicts with 4.1. It would also mean that Buffalo is within Toronto's home territory. And how much did Buffalo pay for indemification towards Toronto? Quite frankly the idea that a tiny sliver of city territory is within another city's "territory" makes the whole city in that territory is just plain ludicris, especially since neither Toronto nor Buffalo actually attempt to exploit the Head of the Lake for their own use essentially nullifies the claim on that territory.
So.....what happens when cities expand and encroach on anothers territory?

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06-29-2009, 11:45 AM
  #257
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It would appear that all cities with multiple arenas are seeing that these facilities can't make any money due to the competition with each other for events.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/29/ny...renas.html?hpw

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06-29-2009, 11:48 AM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Cornell View Post
Is there not another 16,000 seat arena (maybe 2 others) in Phoenix that gives Jobing competition for these events. Then you need to factor in all the refrain about how no one wants to drive to Jobing to attend any event which makes it's doubly difficult to book events.

* I'm just going by a radio interview with Jerry Colangelo in which he stated there is numerous venues in Phoenix which makes operating an arena difficult to turn a profit!
Yes, there are two other 16,000+ seat arenas in the Phoenix area.

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06-29-2009, 11:51 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by RousselRising View Post
I'd defer to Art.Vandelay on this since he was Twittering from the courtroom, but I am 99.9999% sure the judge made reference to the 3-year cap argument and rejected it as insufficient. I think the language was "significantly more" than the <$80M cap claim ($26M+ x 3 years). I seem to recall that was one of the first bombs dropped on the argument by Moyes and Balsillie that the COG was owed nothing as far as they were concerned, and even if they were due something it was limited to 3 years rent.
I don't recall the Judge ever explicitly saying the 3-year cap wouldn't apply. He did however on over half a dozen occasions ask questions or express skepticism that treatment was appropriate in this situation.

A bit of legal background: why is there a 3-year rent cap that can be applied in lease situations? The presumption is that the landlord will be able to re-lease the property within those 3 years thus that's a reasonable cap on the actual damages the landlord will suffer.

Setting aside the argument that damages CoG would claim are not all rent-derived, if the city were indeed left with a white elephant it may not be reasonable to assume they can find a replacement anchor tenant similar to the hockey team within a few years.

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Old
06-29-2009, 11:55 AM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Here is an interesting aside on the quality of the management of the PHO club under Moyes.

Under Moyes, the jobing.com arena had 46 non-hockey events.

I took a look at the Tampa Bay arena for comparison (in connection with a discussion I was having on Tom Benjamin's blog). They have over 150 non-hockey events per year. By way of example, they are currently in the midst of a lengthy stay of 16 performances by the Cirque du Soleil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Doing some calculations from figures in old AZ Republic and ESPN articles from 2006, I believe the city of Glendale and Elman jointly projected 100-120 non-hockey events per year when the arena was constructed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ward Cornell View Post
Is there not another 16,000 seat arena (maybe 2 others) in Phoenix that gives Jobing competition for these events. Then you need to factor in all the refrain about how no one wants to drive to Jobing to attend any event which makes it's doubly difficult to book events.

* I'm just going by a radio interview with Jerry Colangelo in which he stated there is numerous venues in Phoenix which makes operating an arena difficult to turn a profit!
Somone posted a lengthy article on one of these boards about the competition for bookings between Jobbong.Com Arena, the US Airways Center (formally America West Arena), and other venues - which had the double whammy of both reducing the numbers of dates and driving down arena revenues as promoters play them off against one another. I don't have time to track down that post now.

From a quick Google on competition between the Phoenix venues:

http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/s...5/daily33.html
Quote:
Thursday, May 28, 2009
Phoenix concert lineup: Beyonce at US Airways Center, U2 at UOP
Phoenix Business Journal

Phoenix-area sports and concert venues are divvying up major acts and events for the summer and early fall as the recession digs into discretionary spending on items such as concerts and sporting events.

US Airways Center in downtown Phoenix will play host to concerts by Beyonce on July 7 and Green Day on Aug. 22. Ringling Brothers Barnum & Bailey Circus will be at the center from June 24 to 28. June also marks the start of the Women’s National Basketball Association 2009 season giving the Phoenix Mercury at string of dates there.

Phoenix’s Dodge Theater concerts range from Jay-Z on July 2 to The Fray and Jack’s Mannequin on July 14.

Across town in Glendale, University of Phoenix Stadium will host U2’s latest U.S. tour on Oct 20.

“American Idol” winner Kris Allen and runner-up Adam Lambert will join other finalists at Jobing.com Arena on July 20. Teen pop idols the Jonas Brothers will play Jobing.com on Aug. 11. Cirque du Soleil will be at the Glendale hockey arena July 29 to Aug. 2.

The summer concert lineup at Cricket Wireless Pavilion in west Phoenix includes the Van’s Warped Tour June 30, Marilyn Manson and Slayer on July 17 and Def Leppard on Aug. 29. Pop band Lifehouse will perform after the June 13 Arizona Diamondbacks game at Chase Field.
http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coyo...idebar-CP.html
Quote:
If team leaves, what next for arena?

by Rebekah L. Sanders - May. 17, 2009 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic

If Jobing.com Arena loses the Phoenix Coyotes, its anchor tenant, some in the events industry question the venue's ability to generate enough revenue to be self-sustaining.

"Very, very few big arenas can, without a professional sports team, get enough income to pay the debt service and operate at a profit," said Bob Cavalieri, senior vice president of business development for SMG, which manages event venues worldwide.

Big-league sports lock in as many as 40 confirmed dates per year, while concert calendars can fluctuate, said Ron Woodbridge, former general manager of Jobing.com Arena.

The concert business is "very volatile," he said.

...

Among the possibilities:


• Concerts and events - The arena regularly lands big music acts, like Bruce Springsteen and Fleetwood Mac, and other events, like monster-truck derbies. Downtown Phoenix's U.S. Airways Center is stiff competition. But three out of the five years Glendale's arena has been open, it has outsold its rival, according to "Pollstar," a publication tracking worldwide ticket sales. Last year, Jobing.com sold 200,377 non-sport event seats vs. 135,960 at U.S. Airways.

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06-29-2009, 11:56 AM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GSC2k2 View Post
Here is an interesting aside on the quality of the management of the PHO club under Moyes.

Under Moyes, the jobing.com arena had 46 non-hockey events.

I took a look at the Tampa Bay arena for comparison (in connection with a discussion I was having on Tom Benjamin's blog). They have over 150 non-hockey events per year. By way of example, they are currently in the midst of a lengthy stay of 16 performances by the Cirque du Soleil.
There are other venues in phoenix to compete with , i do have a very good freind from Phoenix he says the main reasons Glendales arena isnt as busy is distance from town its a ways out and the other venues downtown offer better prices , also as for the NHL he says most he knew could care less if it survived , he said really a majority of sports fans in his social circles were not hockey fans ,NFL , NBA and MLB very few were excited about NHL at all add that to an arena that is built out of town without good transit options and you see why it is empty often

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06-29-2009, 12:04 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Yes, there are two other 16,000+ seat arenas in the Phoenix area.
Which venues are you referring to? For concerts, there are five that are used the most:

Jobing.com Arena
US Airways Arena
Cricket Pavillion (seats 20k, outdoor facility, but 8k of the seats are under a roof)
Mesa Amphitheater (seats 4200, all outdoors.)
Dodge Theater (indoors, seats around 5,000)

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06-29-2009, 12:10 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
Which venues are you referring to? For concerts, there are five that are used the most:

Jobing.com Arena
US Airways Arena
Cricket Pavillion (seats 20k, outdoor facility, but 8k of the seats are under a roof)
Mesa Amphitheater (seats 4200, all outdoors.)
Dodge Theater (indoors, seats around 5,000)
I also posted what i was told and i see there are others and what about where the Cardinals play as well i am not sure how big but it has to be a larger venue

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06-29-2009, 12:10 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Yes, there are two other 16,000+ seat arenas in the Phoenix area.
US Airways and what? Are you referring to the Old Veterans Memorail Coliseum the Suns played in in the 70's and 80's. No concerts there.

For major, mainstream concerts we essentially have:

2 football stadiums - Sun Devils Stadium and the Cardinals Stadiumm

2 arenas - US Airways and Jobing .com

1 outdoor ampitheatre (Cricket Pavilion) that holds 8-10K, maybe more

A number of smaller theatres; Dodge Threatre, Orpheum, Mesa Centre for Performing Arts etc.

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06-29-2009, 12:11 PM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art.Vandelay View Post
Which venues are you referring to? For concerts, there are five that are used the most:

Jobing.com Arena
US Airways Arena
Cricket Pavillion (seats 20k, outdoor facility, but 8k of the seats are under a roof)
Mesa Amphitheater (seats 4200, all outdoors.)
Dodge Theater (indoors, seats around 5,000)
Plus Tempe Beach Park

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06-29-2009, 12:37 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by bbud View Post
I also posted what i was told and i see there are others and what about where the Cardinals play as well i am not sure how big but it has to be a larger venue
U of Phoenix Stadium has some concerts, but not many. Only really big acts like Rolling Stones and U2 play there.

Chase Ballpark (Diamondbacks) has concerts occaisonally too, but only a handful.

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06-29-2009, 12:43 PM
  #267
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Man Saved by Blackberry - this should clinch it for Balsillie.

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06-29-2009, 12:45 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake16 View Post
US Airways and what? Are you referring to the Old Veterans Memorail Coliseum the Suns played in in the 70's and 80's. No concerts there.

For major, mainstream concerts we essentially have:

2 football stadiums - Sun Devils Stadium and the Cardinals Stadiumm

2 arenas - US Airways and Jobing .com

1 outdoor ampitheatre (Cricket Pavilion) that holds 8-10K, maybe more

A number of smaller theatres; Dodge Threatre, Orpheum, Mesa Centre for Performing Arts etc.
Wells Fargo.

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06-29-2009, 12:59 PM
  #269
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Wells Fargo.
ASU Basketball plays there. Never heard of a concert there.

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06-29-2009, 01:02 PM
  #270
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From reading the various options for venues of concert and other events in Phoenix it seems like Moyes can't be held responsible for the lack of events at Jobing.

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06-29-2009, 01:08 PM
  #271
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ASU Basketball plays there. Never heard of a concert there.
Janet Jackson played there in the past.

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06-29-2009, 01:21 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Janet Jackson played there in the past.
Can't comment on that other than to say Wells Fargo is not a regular venue for maintstream concerts.

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06-29-2009, 02:19 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Ward Cornell View Post
From reading the various options for venues of concert and other events in Phoenix it seems like Moyes can't be held responsible for the lack of events at Jobing.
Except that I believe that you will find a similar number and breadth of facilities in the Tampa/St. Petersburg area, which dents that argument considerably.

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06-29-2009, 02:21 PM
  #274
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Except that I believe that you will find a similar number and breadth of facilities in the Tampa/St. Petersburg area, which dents that argument considerably.
Except are they making money there?
What's also the population base within 60 mile radius of the two cities which can throw a wrench into any comparisions?

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06-29-2009, 02:33 PM
  #275
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Except that I believe that you will find a similar number and breadth of facilities in the Tampa/St. Petersburg area, which dents that argument considerably.
Not really. You do not find two competing 16K+ arenas (like Jobbing & US Airways) for major touring shows.

A quick Google of concerts in Tamps/St Pete yields two major venues - the St Pete Times Forum and the Ford Amphitheatre at the Florida State Fairgrounds (outdoor venue equivalent to the Cricket Pavilion in Phx)

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