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Hossa Signs with Chicago :( (Updated: Kopecky to Chicago too!)

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06-26-2009, 03:40 PM
  #26
doublejack
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Originally Posted by caseygraves View Post
Looks to me like we would have to move someone even if we sign Hossa to a 4 million cap hit. or am i missing something here?
You are correct. Even if we get Hossa for 4 million per season it will force us to move someone to make room. That "someone" would have to be a player making at least $2-3M per season. So the list would include players like Homer, Filppula, Cleary, Stuart, Kronwall, etc.

I'm hoping that Homer retires. Even if we don't sign Hossa, Homer going away would make room to keep someone else, someone who isn't so done.

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06-26-2009, 03:52 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
You are correct. Even if we get Hossa for 4 million per season it will force us to move someone to make room. That "someone" would have to be a player making at least $2-3M per season. So the list would include players like Homer, Filppula, Cleary, Stuart, Kronwall, etc.

I'm hoping that Homer retires. Even if we don't sign Hossa, Homer going away would make room to keep someone else, someone who isn't so done.
That list of players makes me hope the he doesn't come back. I wouldn't want anybody gone just to keep Hossa. Maybe Homer, but that's all assuming that Hossa could sign for $4 million.

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06-26-2009, 04:51 PM
  #28
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I like that people are starting to buy into the idea that Hudler is a luxury this team doesn't need with or without Hossa. As long as we get a modest return on hudler we are a better team trading him them keeping him in this cap world. Will be sad as I really like the guy but such is the cap world.

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06-26-2009, 05:13 PM
  #29
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Pavel Datsyuk $6,700,000
Henrik Zetterberg $6,083,333
Johan Franzen $3,954,545
Valtteri Filppula $3,000,000
Daniel Cleary $2,800,000
Tomas Holmstrom $2,250,000
Jiri Hudler $2,015,000
Mikael Samuelsson $1,800,000
Kris Draper $1,583,333
Ville Leino $1,000,000
Kirk Maltby $883,333
Darren Helm $599,444
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom $7,450,000
Brian Rafalaski $6,000,000
Brad Stuart $3,750,000
Niklas Kronwall $3,000,000
Andreas Lilja $1,250,000
Jonathan Ericsson $900,000
Brett Lebda $650,000
Derek Meech $483,333
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood $1,416,666
Jimmy Howard $716,666
BUYOUTS
NONE
LOST VIA REENTRY WAIVERS
NONE
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (including bonuses)
ROSTER SIZE 22
SALARY CAP $56,800,000
PAYROLL $58,285,653
BONUS MONEY (ESTIMATED) (0% of cap) $0
CAP ROOM $-1,485,653
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06-26-2009, 05:23 PM
  #30
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now that I realize this, mark me on the side of rather having depth than Hossa.

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06-26-2009, 05:25 PM
  #31
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Wow, many people seem to think that around 4 million is somehow the right price for Hossa. Superstars don't grow on trees and if you've got one like that (40 goal, 100 point two way forward) willing to take a discount you sign him. If he's willing to take 6 million expect to see him in Wings uniform. I am entertained by the "I wanna see him for 4 millions otherwise goodbye" opinions. Good thing you guys are fans not GMs.

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06-26-2009, 05:40 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
Wow, many people seem to think that around 4 million is somehow the right price for Hossa. Superstars don't grow on trees and if you've got one like that (40 goal, 100 point two way forward) willing to take a discount you sign him. If he's willing to take 6 million expect to see him in Wings uniform. I am entertained by the "I wanna see him for 4 millions otherwise goodbye" opinions. Good thing you guys are fans not GMs.
Yeah, I understand what you and others have said about the unrealistic expectation of Hossa signing for ~$4M cap hit. He is a big name and a talented player. There is nothing about his game which would qualify the bold proposition of such a dramatically low cap average.

Even still, cap hit doesn't equal actual salary per year, although it would have to decline within a short amount of time. It's not unreasonable to expect it out of him, but it certainly isn't unlikely that he'll reject that kind of offer.

Depth is awesome, Hossa is awesome, too. It sucks that the Wings (and the fans) will have to choose between quality depth (Sammy, Happy) and Hossa. I prefer the depth, but I will lament seeing Hossa in another team's jersey.

The salary cap must go!

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06-26-2009, 05:47 PM
  #33
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Unfortunately, even if Hossa goes, we're not going to have room to sign both Sammy and Hudler.

I freakin' hate that Rafalski contract. HATE IT.

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06-26-2009, 05:47 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
Wow, many people seem to think that around 4 million is somehow the right price for Hossa. Superstars don't grow on trees and if you've got one like that (40 goal, 100 point two way forward) willing to take a discount you sign him. If he's willing to take 6 million expect to see him in Wings uniform. I am entertained by the "I wanna see him for 4 millions otherwise goodbye" opinions. Good thing you guys are fans not GMs.
He scored 72 points on Datsyuks wing, and then he did not do much in the playoffs. Many of us would rather ice the team from 08 then ice the team from 09 minus Fippula, Samuelsson, and Hudler. (roughly 6 million) If he were to sign for 4 million a year then keep him. (duh) Anything more and we will be happy to say good bye.

Good bye Hossa.

We have been conditioned by the last year not to sign him.

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06-26-2009, 06:06 PM
  #35
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as long as the wings beat his team next year in the stanley cup finals i don't care

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06-26-2009, 06:21 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Unfortunately, even if Hossa goes, we're not going to have room to sign both Sammy and Hudler.

I freakin' hate that Rafalski contract. HATE IT.
Yeah, if people really want to start talking about cost to value...

There are some worse contracts on the Wings than Hossa with a $4 million cap hit. Oh well. I honestly don't know how Kenny can swing it.

 
Old
06-27-2009, 05:52 PM
  #37
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Anyone who even entertains the notion that a player of his stature would play for $4M a year is living in a dreamworld.
Depends on how one constructs the term. If Hossa thinks he's worth 6 years, 36 million... what's the effective difference between that deal and a 12 year, 50 million dollar offer that steps down the final few years of the contract? He'd get almost exactly the same money up front as the longer deal, the only effective difference is that he's helping out the Wings, rather than forcing them to trade two other roster players.

The dude is 29-30. He is going to get one big money contract, and one only. If he got a 6 year deal now he'd likely never see another significant multi-year contract unless the 35+ rule changes.

He needs to wake up and count the dollar signs.

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06-27-2009, 05:56 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Depends on how one constructs the term. If Hossa thinks he's worth 6 years, 36 million... what's the effective difference between that deal and a 12 year, 50 million dollar offer that steps down the final few years of the contract? He'd get almost exactly the same money up front as the longer deal, the only effective difference is that he's helping out the Wings, rather than forcing them to trade two other roster players.

The dude is 29-30. He is going to get one big money contract, and one only. If he got a 6 year deal now he'd likely never see another significant multi-year contract unless the 35+ rule changes.

He needs to wake up and count the dollar signs.
Except the front-loaded six million dollar deal is the one he's worth.
And the Wings can't afford to pay it, even if they wanted.

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06-27-2009, 05:57 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by jcbio11 View Post
Wow, many people seem to think that around 4 million is somehow the right price for Hossa. Superstars don't grow on trees and if you've got one like that (40 goal, 100 point two way forward) willing to take a discount you sign him. If he's willing to take 6 million expect to see him in Wings uniform. I am entertained by the "I wanna see him for 4 millions otherwise goodbye" opinions. Good thing you guys are fans not GMs.
Welcome to a cap world, dude. You, like many others in the NHL, haven't quite grasped that the presence of the cap changes everything in the manner teams (should) analyze their assets.

Sure, if the Wings had 6 mil in cap space I wouldn't feel too screwed if that's what Hossa made. But, they don't. In order to create 6 mil in cap space they would have to let Hudler go, Sammy go, and trade at least one other significant roster player along the lines of a Filppula, Cleary or Kronwall.

Yes, Hossa is a very good player. No, he is not so good that he is worth one of Filppula/Cleary/Kronwall, Sammy, Hudler, and grinding right up to the cap ceiling.

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06-27-2009, 06:05 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Welcome to a cap world, dude. You, like many others in the NHL, haven't quite grasped that the presence of the cap changes everything in the manner teams (should) analyze their assets.

Sure, if the Wings had 6 mil in cap space I wouldn't feel too screwed if that's what Hossa made. But, they don't. In order to create 6 mil in cap space they would have to let Hudler go, Sammy go, and trade at least one other significant roster player along the lines of a Filppula, Cleary or Kronwall.

Yes, Hossa is a very good player. No, he is not so good that he is worth one of Filppula/Cleary/Kronwall, Sammy, Hudler, and grinding right up to the cap ceiling.
I totally agree. We can't afford Hossa its just that simple.
Sammy and Hudler get a lot of 'heat' here on HF but I believe that those two are two great depth players. How many teams can say that they have guys of that calibre on the 3rd line?

The Red Wings are good because of their depth. Lets not screw that.

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06-27-2009, 06:07 PM
  #41
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I totally agree. We can't afford Hossa its just that simple.
Sammy and Hudler get a lot of 'heat' here on HF but I believe that those two are two great depth players. How many teams can say that they have guys of that calibre on the 3rd line?

The Red Wings are good because of their depth. Lets not screw that.
They are great depth players at under 3M combined. For 5 or 6M combined it starts to be a bit much for "depth players." Welcome to a cap world.

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06-27-2009, 06:07 PM
  #42
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Except the front-loaded six million dollar deal is the one he's worth.
Again, you're not getting it. Here, maybe this will help.

6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6. That's 6 years, 36 million. 6 mil cap hit.

or

6, 6, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2, 1. That's 12 years, 50 million. 4.17 mil cap hit.

Then, if you were smart, you would sit down and analyze the two halves of the deal.

Is it worth it to play in Detroit for 6 years at 34 million rather than somewhere else at 6 years and 36 (or more, possibly) million, a whopping difference of around 300k (or more) a year?

Does Hossa and his agent anticipate more than 16 million dollars worth of contracts past age 35? Is he ineterested in becoming a year-by-year player past age 35, bouncing around from team to team?

Hey, I am not going to fault Hossa or Winter for trying to get paid on their next, and likely last, big deal. In fact, I am secretly rooting for them to price Hossa right out of Detroit's plans, given my latent passion for a trade-deadline acquisition of Luongo, or... someone. I miss trade deadlines. Detroit hasn't had an interesting one for about 3 years now.

All that said, if Winter is gearing Hossa up to vaule himself based on cap hit rather than dollars in wallet, he's being an idiot.

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06-27-2009, 06:19 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Again, you're not getting it. Here, maybe this will help.

6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6. That's 6 years, 36 million. 6 mil cap hit.

or

6, 6, 6, 6, 5, 5, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2, 1. That's 12 years, 50 million. 4.17 mil cap hit.

Then, if you were smart, you would sit down and analyze the two halves of the deal.

Is it worth it to play in Detroit for 6 years at 34 million rather than somewhere else at 6 years and 36 (or more, possibly) million, a whopping difference of around 300k (or more) a year?

Does Hossa and his agent anticipate more than 16 million dollars worth of contracts past age 35? Is he ineterested in becoming a year-by-year player past age 35, bouncing around from team to team?

Hey, I am not going to fault Hossa or Winter for trying to get paid on their next, and likely last, big deal. In fact, I am secretly rooting for them to price Hossa right out of Detroit's plans, given my latent passion for a trade-deadline acquisition of Luongo, or... someone. I miss trade deadlines. Detroit hasn't had an interesting one for about 3 years now.

All that said, if Winter is gearing Hossa up to vaule himself based on cap hit rather than dollars in wallet, he's being an idiot.
Bob thinks Marian should get a deal that's structured like the 2nd one but with an overall cap hit of $6M. IE - $7-8M+ the first few years.

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06-27-2009, 06:25 PM
  #44
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Bob thinks Marian should get a deal that's structured like the 2nd one but with an overall cap hit of $6M. IE - $7-8M+ the first few years.
But Hossa was never in a million years going to get that kind of deal from Detroit. Honestly, considering Datsyuk and Zetterberg both have similar cap numbers and they were >> Hossa, Datsyuk in the regular season and Z in the playoffs, why in the world would someone think Hossa should be compensated equivalently to them?

Like I said, I am rooting for Winter to continue to remain clueless about this. I'd rather retaining Hossa not even be a discussion.

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06-27-2009, 06:29 PM
  #45
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Call me crazy but I let hossa and hudler walk and focus my efforts on trying to get Sammy signed around Holmstrom money. This is coming from someone who actually likes Hudler. But I agree with HHD we have seen what he can do and frankly its not going to be enough. Sammy is more versatile. Granted Sammy is least likely to take a discount out of the 3 which is contrary to my preferences.

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06-27-2009, 06:40 PM
  #46
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But Hossa was never in a million years going to get that kind of deal from Detroit. Honestly, considering Datsyuk and Zetterberg both have similar cap numbers and they were >> Hossa, Datsyuk in the regular season and Z in the playoffs, why in the world would someone think Hossa should be compensated equivalently to them?

Like I said, I am rooting for Winter to continue to remain clueless about this. I'd rather retaining Hossa not even be a discussion.
Exactly. Contenders do not remain contenders by paying guys who aren't their bread-and-butter players $7MM+ per year. Hossa knows firsthand where he stands relative to Dats and Z. Is Winter saying Hossa should get a Zetterberg-type contract with the Wings?

He clearly can get a Z-type contract on the open market, but he won't be a Red Wing. He could have had more money had he stayed with the Pens, but he said it himself-- had he stayed for the money offered, the Pens team would have been different and not necessarily one that could win the Cup either.


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Call me crazy but I let hossa and hudler walk and focus my efforts on trying to get Sammy signed around Holmstrom money. This is coming from someone who actually likes Hudler. But I agree with HHD we have seen what he can do and frankly its not going to be enough. Sammy is more versatile. Granted Sammy is least likely to take a discount out of the 3 which is contrary to my preferences.
Nah. Losing Hossa shouldn't increase Sammy's value. What has Sammy done to deserve a contract that is only slightly less than what Cleary and Filppula earn? He's really a player that is one step down from Cleary and Flip-- so you'd pay him a similar amount just because you lost Hossa? I'm not seeing it.

 
Old
06-27-2009, 06:44 PM
  #47
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They are great depth players at under 3M combined. For 5 or 6M combined it starts to be a bit much for "depth players." Welcome to a cap world.
oh, irritated are we?
Do you know the asking price of those two? If so, inform us (!) please

We don't anything yet about those two. Lets see and wait before we start throwing around ridicules numbers like 5/6 million combined

Hudler and Sammy at max $4 million (combined) or else let them walk

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06-27-2009, 06:46 PM
  #48
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Honestly, right now I'd be totally fine if Hossa, Sammy and Hudler all left. Hossa thinks he's too expensive, Sammy as a 2 mil player would probably annoy me, and I'd love to get the picks from someone offering up 2+ for Huds.

That said, Hossa and Sammy are almost certainly gone, and Hudler only stays if he signs his qualifying offer, so I may get my wish.

I mean, Detroit could pick up a guy like Laperriere for around 1.5-2 in a one year deal and put him in Kopecky's spot and have:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Cleary
Franzen-Filppula-Hudler/Leino
Helm-Draper-Laperriere
Homer-Hudler/Leino-Maltby

I love those forwards. Love them. Big bursting hearts of love. And the Wings could probably do that and have 1-2 mil in cap space to boot, depending on how Lilja is handled.

Who would want to play against that third line? The fourth line is probably junk, but Maltby and Homer are at least physical, and if Hudler/Leino can provide some individual skill and scoring there, it's not like Homer is completely useless as an offensive player... although he may be.

If someone cements that other top 6 forward spot, that top 6 could be really hard to handle.

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06-27-2009, 06:55 PM
  #49
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Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Cleary
Franzen-Filppula-Hudler/Leino
Helm-Draper-Laperriere
Homer-Hudler/Leino-Maltby

I love those forwards. Love them. Big bursting hearts of love. And the Wings could probably do that and have 1-2 mil in cap space to boot, depending on how Lilja is handled.
i'd love that lines too, especially with the knowledge that abdelkader, who proved IMO that he's ready, is waiting in GR and can be called up to help if needed.

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06-27-2009, 06:57 PM
  #50
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Nah. Losing Hossa shouldn't increase Sammy's value. What has Sammy done to deserve a contract that is only slightly less than what Cleary and Filppula earn? He's really a player that is one step down from Cleary and Flip-- so you'd pay him a similar amount just because you lost Hossa? I'm not seeing it.
I didnt say it increased his value. Actually I think its totally irrelevant. I mean Id like to say Sammy is worth 1.75M but lets be honest if we have the cap space id pay up to 2.25M if it kept us a very nice "depth player" with versatility. My point is when faced with filling our final spot (sans hossa) it would come down to Hudler vs Sammy vs 2.25M FA. Ill take Sammy (as long as both are equal bargains, likely they wont be).

At 2.25M we wont find many players that fit our team or our needs better than Sammy. Id be willing to overpay a little (in the short term) to have a more competitive team for the next year or two.

No im not talking about signing Sammy to a long term deal. I dont think we need any more long term deals currently.

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