There's nothing worrisome about him becoming a 40 goal guy. I don't see that kind of skillset on him. But who knows.
I think he tops out as a 28-35 goal scorer, which is where he is.
There's nothing worrisome about him becoming a 40 goal guy. I don't see that kind of skillset on him. But who knows.
I think he tops out as a 28-35 goal scorer, which is where he is.
Yes you did. I think if Franzen tops out where you think he will it would be pretty good and comparable with Hossa's career average.
He could have easily been a high 30 goal scorer and an 80 point guy.
He is a deal and he is very good. Like someone said prior, he's great at creating for himself and he's a mediocre passer, but man can this guy FINISH!
Franzen won't put up Hossa-like numbers and we shouldn't expect him to. The Wings have Datsyuk already as a top 10 scorer and we've seen Zetterberg put up 40 goals in a season. All they need from Mule is another 30-35 goals. I wouldn't be shocked if he is the leading goal scorer on the team this next season. Pavel, Hank and Mule will probably all put in 30 goals each. What I'd like to see is Cleary to get back to scoring 20 goals and perhaps Filppula jumping up to the 20 goal range as well.
I truly believe he's gonna get 40 goals next year.
There is room to bump him up to the 1st line. Try that out with Datsyuk, the assist king, and see how it goes. Pavel can score but he is one of the rare balanced talents who prefers to pass rather than shoot. He's GREAT at both, but man Z can make poo players look good.. Why not have him center 2 under-achievers and try out the mule with that pylon known as the homer?
Reminds me of the comments made when Pavel signed his contract. Pavel has exceeded his contract value for sure, he was signed before he did anything in the playoffs and was surrounded by questions and doubt. And yes, Pavel was younger.
The thing about Pavel is that he was already our #1 center, and showed many flashes of brilliance. Everyone knew he had every tool to be an 80-100 pt guy, but the real question was playoff performance. I accepted that he was injured, and that once the old guard left, Pavel would accept that HE had to produce in the playoffs too. It was psychological factor, not tools/skill, etc. Secondly, the cap was going up like crazy at that point. Thirdly, Pavel signed for 7 yrs, considered big at the time, but it pales to these 10-15 yrs deals that have developed since that time. The team showed less confidence in him than they just showed in Franzen, oddly enough.
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I believe Franzen still has more to give and will be able to make the contract look like even more of a bargain. Salary is one thing but how many consistent goal scorers make under 4m/yr? I know the part you don't like is the term.
Don't forget, this was Franzen's first season as a full-time goalscorer with expectations.
Just to reiterate though, I think there were two ways to achieve essentially the same cap hit. One was to have Franzen put in a spot where he is forced to choose between being a longterm Wing and buying into the Ken's discount program, OR Ken throwing out a ridiculous term on top of essentially full market value (with a looming declining cap scenario) to make it palatable to the Wings.
We're only happy with Franzen's cap hit because Holland accepted a way to make it palatable. Seeing this is the friggin' Red Wings and that guys should want to play here (like taking 20-30% less than market value, and leaving bigger offers behind)-- why is everyone as pleased with Franzen's deal.
I guess that is mainly what I'm saying-- Franzen only signed because he'd get $5.5 MM next year, $5, 5.25, 5.25. 5, 5, and 5.....for the rest of his days where he has any value as a physical forward. Will it be a good contract? I don't know, maybe, but let's not fool ourselves and say he left money on the table. I think it was Holland's failure in leveraging matters however.
I suppose it depends on what the rest of the team would have been at Ken Holland's 4 million offer, but I've recently come around to thinking that letting hossa walk over 1 million dollars was just foolish if there was any remote possibility of being able to move holmstrom.
move him and sign a gritty Free Agent like Laperriere for the bottom 6 and that's 1 million knocked off straight away, not to mention the possibility of moving Lilja or atleast keeping his 1.5 mil off the books.
I suppose I don't think it was necessarily a bad move to let him go, both options had risks attached, but I can't help but feel like we are going to spend alot of the season wondering if these guys were really worth holding onto.
Very happy to see both these players go. Hossa's contract would have killed the Wings. They have good, young players they need to keep and who should be playing. Kopecky was eating up a roster spot that none of us could explain him getting other than Hossa pulling some strings for his friend. And now they're both in Chicago. Hmm.
I don't hate Hossa for leaving. A lot of Pens fans did, but that was mostly because a lot of them are too young to know what it feels like to have a good team where the business aspect of the rental player is a fact of life.
What I hate Hossa for is being a CHOKING DOG in the playoffs. The Wings play four playoff rounds and he scores all his playoff goals in exactly 3 games?! Really?! Thanks for the heavy lifting, champ.
Very happy to see both these players go. Hossa's contract would have killed the Wings. They have good, young players they need to keep and who should be playing. Kopecky was eating up a roster spot that none of us could explain him getting other than Hossa pulling some strings for his friend. And now they're both in Chicago. Hmm.
I don't hate Hossa for leaving. A lot of Pens fans did, but that was mostly because a lot of them are too young to know what it feels like to have a good team where the business aspect of the rental player is a fact of life.
What I hate Hossa for is being a CHOKING DOG in the playoffs. The Wings play four playoff rounds and he scores all his playoff goals in exactly 3 games?! Really?! Thanks for the heavy lifting, champ.
I agree and think that the majority of Wings fans do also. I hate him for going to the Hawks Although that might be a good thing and screw up their cap when they have to resign Kane, Toews, Keith, and Ladd next year
Interesting blurb from Kenny. Does he mean he had to move one of the Wings star players as in (a) no other way to get the cap space [and I don't agree], or (b) he didn't have a market for anyone else?
Holland said he spent the past few weeks working with his staff to try to find a way to get Hossa the money he wanted, but there was no room.
"Zetterberg was our No. 1 priority and then we were negotiating with Franzen and Hossa simultaneously and we told them that. We were looking for the best cap deal and we got Franzen done. As a result, Hossa today is a Chicago Blackhawk. Players have this opportunity to make the most money that they can and we don't blame them."
Holland said he told Hossa and his agent, Ritch Winter, in March to wait until July was approaching to resume contract negotiations. He had a few ideas of how to make room for a new Hossa contract.
"I sat down with Ritch in Montreal (at last month's Entry Draft) and told him I was prepared to move some players out to clear an opportunity for him to be here," Holland said. "But it didn't work, unless we were willing to trade the elite players and that didn't make sense to me. We couldn't get to the $5 million number unless we wanted to trade another of our star players."
Interesting blurb from Kenny. Does he mean he had to move one of the Wings star players as in (a) no other way to get the cap space [and I don't agree], or (b) he didn't have a market for anyone else?
One of the things I like about Holland is that he's often quite honest about his thought process.
This is balls on.
The NTC guy he could have moved was Holmstrom, and people weren't probably lining up for that right before the UFA day.
Interesting blurb from Kenny. Does he mean he had to move one of the Wings star players as in (a) no other way to get the cap space [and I don't agree], or (b) he didn't have a market for anyone else?
i think it means there was no market. homer and draper for example no one would take. lilja is a maybe, but no enough.
and i think with elite players he means all cornerstones to the team: lidstrom, rafalski, kronner, stuart on D, Z, dats, cleary, franzen, fil on O.
i think elite means guys you can trust in every situation. and by paying fil 3 and cleary almost 3 i think they are considered cornerstones.
Interesting blurb from Kenny. Does he mean he had to move one of the Wings star players as in (a) no other way to get the cap space [and I don't agree], or (b) he didn't have a market for anyone else?
Based on that I think Holland is calling Kronwall and elite player. I'm sure if he was trying to clear cap space that Kronwall's name was one of the first to come up from other GMs. His 3M cap hit is peanuts compared to what he brings and I can't imagine there aren't 29 other GMs who'd be happy to line up and take on that contract.
i think elite means guys you can trust in every situation. and by paying fil 3 and cleary almost 3 i think they are considered cornerstones.
I disagree. I think Cleary's 2.8M is a nice number but with cap space tight for several teams it's not a very attractive contract to try and take on right now. He's not a guy who looks to have another level he might reach and 2.8M for a 15-25 goal guy is nice, but not great especially when there are other 20ish goal scorers on the market that could be signed for less (Samuelsson, Satan, Sykora, Fedotenko....you get my point). Cleary's contract was a bargain assuming 3-5M annual cap growth continued but a flat cap brings the price of the mid-range UFAs down and based on what some are signing for so far 2.8M is actually above market value for a 15-25 goal 2nd/3rd forward.
Same with Filppula. 3M for a 3rd line center who has yet to really break out offensively to show he can be a legitimate 2nd line center is above market value. Guys like Arnason, Comrie, Lang, possibly even Koivu could fill that role for less. The flat cap doesn't really make these contracts bargains anymore since the mid-range players are seeing their salaries drop across the board. Just look at the contracts guys like Reinprecht, Weight, Dvorak, LaRose, Moss signed for and they are all comparable to Cleary and Filppula. I'm not saying they are better or equal, but they are relatively close to them.
I disagree. I think Cleary's 2.8M is a nice number but with cap space tight for several teams it's not a very attractive contract to try and take on right now. He's not a guy who looks to have another level he might reach and 2.8M for a 15-25 goal guy is nice, but not great especially when there are other 20ish goal scorers on the market that could be signed for less (Samuelsson, Comrie, Lang, Satan, Sykora, Fedotenko....you get my point). Cleary's contract was a bargain assuming 3-5M annual cap growth continued but a flat cap brings the price of the mid-range UFAs down and based on what some are signing for so far 2.8M is actually above market value for a 15-25 goal 2nd/3rd forward.
my understanding of "elite" is that these are the players who can put out in every situation possible. against lines 1,2,3,4, on PP, on PK, up by 1 goal, trailing by 1 goal etc.
all 9 players i mentioned are good enough 2way players to face every single player in the NHL.
while non-elite players are role players. guys like sammy/hudler who serve a purpose, but are not reliable on any situation against anyone.
that being said, i agree that cleary is movable. but i think he combines something that this team needs even more than another hossa-like player. cleary is a guy who can screen while homer is on a decline. i don't think holland is willing to move him.
I agree with FF as far as elite or untouchable really: Lids, Z, Dats, Franzen, Kronwall... add Stuart and Rafalski since D is untouchable plus Holland made a commitment to them.
The part I'm not sure about is an inability to move a Cleary or Filppula. I'd hate to lose Cleary since he's a playoff leader, and I think he has a bit of an excuse with injuries for the past year + playoffs. Fil is on the bubble-- the potential is what the team is counting on, but he has yet to get there.
I dunno. Holland's comment doesn't hold together imo if you factor in that he gave three teams access to Hossa after the draft...
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Originally Posted by zecke26
my understanding of "elite" is that these are the players who can put out in every situation possible. against lines 1,2,3,4, on PP, on PK, up by 1 goal, trailing by 1 goal etc.
all 9 players i mentioned are good enough 2way players to face every single player in the NHL.
while non-elite players are role players. guys like sammy/hudler who serve a purpose, but are not reliable on any situation against anyone.
that being said, i agree that cleary is movable. but i think he combines something that this team needs even more than another hossa-like player. cleary is a guy who can screen while homer is on a decline. i don't think holland is willing to move him.
Nah, that's not what elite means. He said elite and "our stars"... The "our" part makes me worry, back to that homegrown thing and the message it sends if it includes anyone who has turned into a decent player while here. I just don't see Fil as elite or one of the stars yet (akin to Dats, Z, or even Kronwall).
I personally believe Ville Leino will be a 60 point guy next year.
He has all the tools
I can't wait to see him next year.
Respectfully, I disagree. He looked a bit rough at times, and bit slow. I'll be happy if he gets to 15G, and an even number of assists. He has to convince Babs to give him IT, and Babs is worried about his two-way play.
I personally believe Ville Leino will be a 60 point guy next year.
He has all the tools
I can't wait to see him next year.
How does he replace in the top 6? Holmstrom? Who's spot does he take on the PP? He has no shot at 60pts playing on the 3rd/4th line with little or no PP time.
Respectfully, I disagree. He looked a bit rough at times, and bit slow. I'll be happy if he gets to 15G, and an even number of assists. He has to convince Babs to give him IT, and Babs is worried about his two-way play.
5 goals, 4 assists 9 points 13 games.
+5.
Looking at his TOI during the regular season some days he got 11-13 minutes, One game he had 18> THis guy has potential . He played at hte highest level in the Elite leagues. We need to give him a chance. We have 3 good centers we need to start builing around them.
Give Leino a chance to play with Z and I guarantee you he's gonna be a 60 point player.
How does he replace in the top 6? Holmstrom? Who's spot does he take on the PP? He has no shot at 60pts playing on the 3rd/4th line with little or no PP time.
what? so if leino makes no 60 points it's because he has no PP time. but from filppula it's expected to make 60 without PP time?
i mean, that's he reason we are not allowed to call him a 2nd liner, right?
what? so if leino makes no 60 points it's because he has no PP time. but from filppula it's expected to make 60 without PP time?
i mean, that's he reason we are not allowed to call him a 2nd liner, right?
If Filppula plays the same role next season as he did this year (3rd line center, very limited PP time) I don't expect 60pts. I'd expect more like 30-40.
That said, I think there is at least an even money chance that Datsyuk and Zetterberg wind up on a line together again meaning Filpulla will get 2nd line center duties. I also think he'll get a regular shift on the 2nd PP unit with Hudler and Franzen/Cleary.
Although that might be a good thing and screw up their cap when they have to resign Kane, Toews, Keith, and Ladd next year
