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Where were all the Czech draft picks?

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Old
06-28-2009, 01:25 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Hockey in Finland isn't declining like it is in Slovakia and Czech Republic. 8 Years ago, Sweden were in a similar position to the Slovaks and Czechs. Things can change, and may well change.

The Czechs are definitely struggling right now, but they do have some very good younger players. Krejci, Hemsky, Frolik and Voracek is a good group. They are in decline in terms of juniors at the moment, but at senior level, they will remain quite competitive, and defnitely way above Germany/Swiss/Denmark for the forseeable future.
I have to disagree with you in some parts, while they have they young players, those aren´t of such a caliber as their top players used to be. And just looking at the last three drafts shows they already have a huge generation gap which will probably show at the senior level sooner rather than later.And definitely by 2014 in Sochi. They did not any further than the quarterfinals in the past three WHC, weren´t succesful at Eurohockey tour and did not have much good results with the top 5 teams. They might not be doing absolutely terrible, but they´re probably not going anywhere further than quarterfinals in any tournament and quarterfinals are the borderline for Germany/Swiss as well. Sure, when you look at the skill level of the individual players, the Czechs win, but it does not bring them anywhere further than the Germans/Swiss.

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06-28-2009, 01:26 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TMLeafer View Post
I saw on a draft recap on one of the TV channels (TSN or Sportsnet, not sure) and they had a graphic up of how many kids were selected from each country. They had one from the UK. Born in London, England Thomas Larkin went in the 5th round to Columbus. But NHL.com has his country as "IT" which I'm assuming is Italy?
Born in the UK to an Italian and an American parent, grew up in the USA hockey-wise, but represents Italy, there already is a thread on him here.

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06-28-2009, 01:29 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Hockey in Finland isn't declining like it is in Slovakia and Czech Republic.
Well maybe the situation here in Finland is not as bad as it is in those two countries, but Finnish hockey is definitely in decline.

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06-28-2009, 01:31 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TMLeafer View Post
I saw on a draft recap on one of the TV channels (TSN or Sportsnet, not sure) and they had a graphic up of how many kids were selected from each country. They had one from the UK. Born in London, England Thomas Larkin went in the 5th round to Columbus. But NHL.com has his country as "IT" which I'm assuming is Italy?
Yes it is. Larkin played for their under 16 and 18 teams.

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06-28-2009, 01:43 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by slovakiaforever View Post
I have to disagree with you in some parts, while they have they young players, those aren´t of such a caliber as their top players used to be. And just looking at the last three drafts shows they already have a huge generation gap which will probably show at the senior level sooner rather than later.And definitely by 2014 in Sochi. They did not any further than the quarterfinals in the past three WHC, weren´t succesful at Eurohockey tour and did not have much good results with the top 5 teams. They might not be doing absolutely terrible, but they´re probably not going anywhere further than quarterfinals in any tournament and quarterfinals are the borderline for Germany/Swiss as well. Sure, when you look at the skill level of the individual players, the Czechs win, but it does not bring them anywhere further than the Germans/Swiss.
Voracek, Frolik etc are no Jagr's, but they will be top line forwards in the NHL. Finland hasn't possessed elite talent at forward that much for quite awhile. I'd still argue Czech Republic has a far stronger base of players from around age years 83 to 89. Those years will provide the backbone of the senior team for quite awhile. Hemsky, Krejci are two top line forwards not yet in their prime, Voracek and Frolik have made excellent starts to their NHL careers, and other promising players do exist from this time gap from the Czech republic. I agree, its not the caliber of a Russia or a Canada by any means, but they have a solid base of young senior or future senior players. If Finland can make it to the finals of the Olympics, then the Czechs IMO can as well. I don't expect them to, but to me their terrible run of years of junior players will not catch up on their senior team quick enough for them to be an uncompetive and dangerous team for the next 5-6 years. Slovaks on the other hand, did not have that 3-4 years in the early 2000's where they still churned out a good couple of prospects every year, and thus their senior team will show a quicker decline IMO.

Btw, I am not particularly knowledgable on the depths of why the Czech and Slovak junior programmes are failing so badly, and i do not confess to know much of their depth outside of NHL players, and the strenght of their home leagues or eurotour success.I just think that there is still a considerably gulf between the Czechs and the Swiss/Germany/Belarus at this time. Those countries niether have the talent nor depth to compete with them on a consistent basis at this time.

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06-28-2009, 01:47 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by mightyduck View Post
Well maybe the situation here in Finland is not as bad as it is in those two countries, but Finnish hockey is definitely in decline.
I heard popularity wise it was still very strong. From what i have read etc, hockey is still #1 in Finland (unlike Sweden and other places etc where soccer now has taken over). Talent wise, Finland hasn't produced much recently (09 was a stronger year for fins in recent times i believe, kinda scary) isn't the reason for a surge in talent different to those reasons in Czech and Slovakia? I am actually interested to know, so please if you could give me a better understanding for the lack of elite youngsters from Finland recently i'd appreciate it.

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06-28-2009, 01:54 PM
  #32
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Is it possible, that with the increase in very good talent coming out of the USA, that has affected the number of good prospects from Europe?
The NHL is now approximately 52% Canadian and in second with 22% is the states.
In future I see the % dropping for Canada and increasing for the USA.
The USA has almost as many registered youth players as Canada and the number will only grow.

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06-28-2009, 01:57 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Voracek, Frolik etc are no Jagr's, but they will be top line forwards in the NHL. Finland hasn't possessed elite talent at forward that much for quite awhile. I'd still argue Czech Republic has a far stronger base of players from around age years 83 to 89. Those years will provide the backbone of the senior team for quite awhile. Hemsky, Krejci are two top line forwards not yet in their prime, Voracek and Frolik have made excellent starts to their NHL careers, and other promising players do exist from this time gap from the Czech republic. I agree, its not the caliber of a Russia or a Canada by any means, but they have a solid base of young senior or future senior players. If Finland can make it to the finals of the Olympics, then the Czechs IMO can as well. I don't expect them to, but to me their terrible run of years of junior players will not catch up on their senior team quick enough for them to be an uncompetive and dangerous team for the next 5-6 years. Slovaks on the other hand, did not have that 3-4 years in the early 2000's where they still churned out a good couple of prospects every year, and thus their senior team will show a quicker decline IMO.

Btw, I am not particularly knowledgable on the depths of why the Czech and Slovak junior programmes are failing so badly, and i do not confess to know much of their depth outside of NHL players, and the strenght of their home leagues or eurotour success.I just think that there is still a considerably gulf between the Czechs and the Swiss/Germany/Belarus at this time. Those countries niether have the talent nor depth to compete with them on a consistent basis at this time.
The thing about Finland is that the two main reasons they get so far without star players is that they outskate their opponents and hard-work. I do no think these thinbgs describe the Czechs. Another thing is that they do not have an alite goalie and the D does not look any great as well and you´re not going anywhere with just forwards. I´m not saying that they can´t be competitive but if they make it to the semifinals I would call that an upset.

As I already said based indivduall skill the Czechs are at least two classes ahead of Germans/Swiss/Belarussians, but these countries play a deffensive minded system of a game, which works greatly even against teams like Russia as opposed to the Czechs offense minded game which does not bring them anywhere as the stronger teams usually score more goals than they do.

I don´t really want to talk about Slovakia here, but our decline has been showing already since the 2006 WHC at least and at junior level,well I can´t really say early 2000´s since we won two U18 medals back then, but since most of the players never really turned out to be what they were projected as, i guess that is the time. But it is hard to judge Slovakia based on junior tournament, because I definitely think that a team with Hossa, Handzus, Zednik, Orszagh, Visnovsky and some other guys that finished 7th in 1996 or 1997 at the WJC was better than this year´s class that finished 4th. (I´m not sure whether all this info is absolutely right since I don´t remember it that properly)

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Old
06-28-2009, 02:00 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
I heard popularity wise it was still very strong. From what i have read etc, hockey is still #1 in Finland (unlike Sweden and other places etc where soccer now has taken over). Talent wise, Finland hasn't produced much recently (09 was a stronger year for fins in recent times i believe, kinda scary) isn't the reason for a surge in talent different to those reasons in Czech and Slovakia? I am actually interested to know, so please if you could give me a better understanding for the lack of elite youngsters from Finland recently i'd appreciate it.
With Finland you have to have in mind that they population is even a little lower (I think) than Slovakia´s, so it is normal for them to vary a worse draft year with a better. But their 2010 draft crop is probably top between Europeans along with Russia´s. It´s up and down with them every year.

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06-28-2009, 02:46 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by slovakiaforever View Post
We do not blame EVERYTHING on the CHL. But it is a big part of the whole problem, 17 is not an early age but one of the most important times of a player´s development and even in times when Czech republic/Slovakia were still good there was a big number of players who went over to the CHL and later played in the ECHL/AHL and after a few years came back disappointed and lesser players than they were when they left. Just check the IIHF studies on Europeans in the CHL.

Look at Sweden´s draft class, when did most of their kids develop? Oh yeah, the SEL.
I just think that people throughout the world have an incorrect notion about all this. It's not just in Europe, but in North America also with the never ending argument about the CHL vs. the NCAA.

If you look throughout the NHL draft history, the vast majority of players don't reach thier potential. There have been plenty of Europeans who stayed in Europe and didn't develop. I don't think anyone could say that things would have been different if, for example, all the top Swedes from this year's draft had played this season in North America.

I do think it's possible that any given player could have potentially done better in a different route, but that could be as simple as a Canadian playing on one OHL team as opposed to another OHL team. Or a Czech player playing for one Extraliga team as opposed to another Extraliga team. Even if a European player returns to Europe unhappy with thier North American hockey experience, things might have been different if they had end up on a different team in NA. Maybe a guy like Richard Panik would have had a better year if he had ended up with a different Extraliga team. Nobody can ever really know the answer though.

The simplest answer to all this for a hockey nation is to ensure that they get as many kids playing hockey as possible. A kid that might have played and never did could be far better than a kid who did play and entered the best possible development path they could have taken for themselves. There are other factors, like skill development vs. tactics, but I still think this is the best solution to the problem. How you make it happen in any given country is another question entirely.

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06-28-2009, 02:58 PM
  #36
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People who are in charge of Czech hockey know about this problem. It's obvious that there are several issues. The good thing is we are aware of it and already made a few steps to get back on track. Turnaround sure won't happen immediately but I hope things are gonna be better in 3-5 years.

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06-28-2009, 02:59 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by cagney View Post
I just think that people throughout the world have an incorrect notion about all this. It's not just in Europe, but in North America also with the never ending argument about the CHL vs. the NCAA.

If you look throughout the NHL draft history, the vast majority of players don't reach thier potential. There have been plenty of Europeans who stayed in Europe and didn't develop. I don't think anyone could say that things would have been different if, for example, all the top Swedes from this year's draft had played this season in North America.

I do think it's possible that any given player could have potentially done better in a different route, but that could be as simple as a Canadian playing on one OHL team as opposed to another OHL team. Or a Czech player playing for one Extraliga team as opposed to another Extraliga team. Even if a European player returns to Europe unhappy with thier North American hockey experience, things might have been different if they had end up on a different team in NA. Maybe a guy like Richard Panik would have had a better year if he had ended up with a different Extraliga team. Nobody can ever really know the answer though.

The simplest answer to all this for a hockey nation is to ensure that they get as many kids playing hockey as possible. A kid that might have played and never did could be far better than a kid who did play and entered the best possible development path they could have taken for themselves. There are other factors, like skill development vs. tactics, but I still think this is the best solution to the problem. How you make it happen in any given country is another question entirely.
Yes, I agree with your argument. Talking about Panik, just look at Tatar, who was considering CHL already last year, but then decided to play in Slovakia and he was given the chance and it di work out very well for him.

But yeah, I already said, I don´t have much against our top players going to the CHL, though I do believe that it is a step back for a guy that has a top 6 role or a top pairing D in a men´s league.

The problem starts with average and underaverage players coming over. It might not be seen so much by NA, but the fact is that we lose a lot of guys that could be at least tp players in either of the Extraliga´s ot even the better European leagues. I don´t want to bash the CHL, really, but the numbers speak for my argument.

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06-28-2009, 03:01 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by destl View Post
People who are in charge of Czech hockey know about this problem. It's obvious that there are several issues. The good thing is we are aware of it and already made a few steps to get back on track. Turnaround sure won't happen immediately but I hope things are gonna be better in 3-5 years.
The thing is, did they really take some serious steps to avoid a further fall down or are they just talking ******** for most part like people in charge of Slovakian hockey are.....? Of course, I hope for the better here....

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06-28-2009, 03:05 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
Where did Horak end up going?

Vincour was supposed to be their boy... Didn't work out too well.

This draft went to Canada and Sweden easily.
The Rangers took Horak in the 5th round. Horak wants to play in the CHL next season.

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One of the appealing things about Horak is that he has made it known that he is coming to North America next season and is opting into the major-junior Canadian Hockey League’s Import Draft draft next week. Clark noted that Horak’s willingness to leave home to learn the North American game and become better acquainted with North America itself was a big plus in the Czech-native’s favor when the Rangers decided to draft him.
http://rangers.nhl.com/team/app/?ser...ticleid=432046

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06-28-2009, 03:09 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Think any countries are doing the opposite, and rising as the Czechs fall? Germany or Switzerland, perhaps?

I doubt either will start pumping out players of the Jagr or Hasek levels that the Czechs once boasted, but maybe in the future hockey will be more common.
Denmark and Belarus maybe? They didn't have as many players drafted this year as they have in the past, but I'm under the understanding that they're both rising hockey nations.

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06-28-2009, 03:24 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BraveSirRobin View Post
Denmark and Belarus maybe? They didn't have as many players drafted this year as they have in the past, but I'm under the understanding that they're both rising hockey nations.
Don't know much about Danish hockey, but Dallas has promising blueliner Philip Larsen waiting in the wings.....probably going to stay in the SEL one more year, then make the jump to the AHL if not Dallas.

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06-28-2009, 04:11 PM
  #42
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it is all about finance...

early years there were many products of past regim - comunism.
sport was one of the few fields where comunism and capitalism could contest without victims..

most of talented guys were DISCOVERED and SUPPORTED.

there was NO (very weak. very, very weak) replacement of this system after fall of comunism.
only kids of wealthy parrents could play hockey and are prefered before REALLY talented guys. why?
wealthy parrents support not just their kids but they are paying for training halls, for bus drives to opponent's rinks etc.
This wealthy kids are in first lines. and REALLY, REALLY talented guys are taking some 4th line time...

this is REALITY in slovak hockey.
Head of Slovak hockey is former STB (Czechoslovak KGB) agent. He is screwing slovak hockey but not only this...
I can write a story about stealing milions. And I don't mean one 5 or 10 milions.. but about hundreds of milions. dollars of course...
these peoples discraditate People like Peter Stastny that really cares about slovak hockey. not only at home but also abroad...

if NHL teams want really find young talents they could support Trencin region.
Dukla trencin and HKM Liptovsky Mikulas were always hatchery of slovak hockey talent. Gaborik, Demitra, Hossa, Chara... etc all from trencin. Satan and Palffy played for Trencin as well. etc..

There was one attempt to build NHL farm in slovakia and it is pitty for NHL but Mostly for slovakia that it was not succesfull - Dallas Stars farm in Kosice - www2.steelarena.sk hckosice.sk

but now slovak hockey is rotten. fish smells from head... I hope that they will leave after world championship in 2011 in slovakia.
You know. building new arenas, new hotels, business with grounds for arenas... that is really attractive temptation... mostly for former powerfull KGB like agent...

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=14803223

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06-28-2009, 04:37 PM
  #43
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Do slovak or czech nhl players invest money in junior hockey back home?

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06-28-2009, 05:35 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by yanokovich View Post
Do slovak or czech nhl players invest money in junior hockey back home?
gaborik builded trainig hall back home. there are many camps with NHL players in the summer.
http://www.mariangaborik.sk/sk/nad_aktivity.htm

Robert Svehla and Pavol Demitra supported reconstruction of arena in Trencin. They have their own nadations.

Satan had his hockey nadation etc...

They don't forget. But it is not systematic. it is not enough I believe...
We will see in 5-10 years if I was right. I hope I am wrong...

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06-28-2009, 05:43 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Think any countries are doing the opposite, and rising as the Czechs fall? Germany or Switzerland, perhaps?

I doubt either will start pumping out players of the Jagr or Hasek levels that the Czechs once boasted, but maybe in the future hockey will be more common.
Yeah right. Makes me laugh. We've been hearing this for the last 10 years that these countries will join the elite hockey club and will be able to compete. First it was supposed to be Germany (in the 90's people always said they'll be winning medals left and right by now, also producing plenty of NHL stars) and then Switzerland. But I ask you, where are their players? Even rapidly declining Czech rep and Slovakia still produce a bunch more prospects, not to mention high end talent. I mean, there's Mark Streit for the Swiss and no one from Germany when talking really high end players. That's it. No one really on the way too most likely. It won't be like Czech rep. and Slovakia decline and disappear into hockey non competitiveness and stop producing NHL stars and Germany and Switzerland suddenly do. If hockey bombs in Slovakia and czech rep it will be a huge loss for the sport.

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06-28-2009, 05:45 PM
  #46
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Yeah right. Makes me laugh. We've been hearing this for the last 10 years that these countries will join the elite hockey club and will be able to compete. First it was supposed to be Germany (in the 90's people always said they'll be winning medals left and right by now, also producing plenty of NHL stars) and then Switzerland. But I ask you, where are their players? Even rapidly declining Czech rep and Slovakia still produce a bunch more prospects, not to mention high end talent. I mean, there's Mark Streit for the Swiss and no one from Germany when talking really high end players. That's it. No one really on the way too most likely. It won't be like Czech rep. and Slovakia decline and disappear into hockey non competitiveness and stop producing NHL stars and Germany and Switzerland suddenly do. If hockey bombs in Slovakia and czech rep it will be a huge loss for the sport.
swiss don't have talent that slovaks or czechs have. but they have SYSTEM for sure.

and what is making you laugh? Swiss can beat us anytime now. they can beat us also with our top force on the ice.

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06-28-2009, 06:31 PM
  #47
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The growth of Central European hockey will always be limited by a few factors: the expenses of hockey, the increasing lack of playable natural ice especially in the cities, the infrastructure required for hockey and of course the popularity of football.

I think in the long run the NHL will see mostly Canadians and Americans anyway. North Americans are more willing than Europeans to put in lots of time and resources into the potential athletic careers of their offspring. Hockey requires more money and time than many other sports or hobbies. In America it's part of the general culture to pick a sport for your kids and then help them "follow the dream", in Europe it's a lot less so in my experience.

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06-28-2009, 06:59 PM
  #48
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This so called lack of interest among the Czech youth, don't they have the third most registered players in the world?

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06-28-2009, 08:00 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
The growth of Central European hockey will always be limited by a few factors: the expenses of hockey, the increasing lack of playable natural ice especially in the cities, the infrastructure required for hockey and of course the popularity of football.

I think in the long run the NHL will see mostly Canadians and Americans anyway. North Americans are more willing than Europeans to put in lots of time and resources into the potential athletic careers of their offspring. Hockey requires more money and time than many other sports or hobbies. In America it's part of the general culture to pick a sport for your kids and then help them "follow the dream", in Europe it's a lot less so in my experience.
Errr.. What is that supposed to mean? Sorry, you make a good point in the beginning of your post, but the bolded part is just a beaten cliché imo. Also, it has to be said that "Europe" is not a common entity in the sense that some on here seem to imagine it to be. It's like claiming something is an "American" trait and bundling for instance Canada together with Chile.

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06-28-2009, 08:19 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Pentothal View Post
Errr.. What is that supposed to mean? Sorry, you make a good point in the beginning of your post, but the bolded part is just a beaten cliché imo. Also, it has to be said that "Europe" is not a common entity in the sense that some on here seem to imagine it to be. It's like claiming something is an "American" trait and bundling for instance Canada together with Chile.
If I look at the draft prospects these days, it seems to me like increasingly they are sons of higher class families who paid for their hockey schools, skating lessons, equipment, trips to tournaments etc. That just seems like more of an American thing to me, doesn't mean it doesn't happen in Europe but I feel like it's on a smaller scale.

Just think of the millions of Americans who play high school sports and the many thousands of them who get college scholarships for sports every year. We don't have that system here in Europe and that motivation to have your children excel at sports.

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