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Style changes/Scouting mistake?

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Old
06-30-2009, 08:34 AM
  #1
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Style changes/Scouting mistake?

I remember when the Flames drafted Phaneuf. The scouting reports said he is a tough physical defensive dman with limited offensive abilities. If you look at him now, most would say the opposite, a offensive dman with limited defensive ability

Are there any other cases like this? Do we see any in this year's crop?

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Old
06-30-2009, 08:45 AM
  #2
Canadiens1958
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Factors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
I remember when the Flames drafted Phaneuf. The scouting reports said he is a tough physical defensive dman with limited offensive abilities. If you look at him now, most would say the opposite, a offensive dman with limited defensive ability

Are there any other cases like this? Do we see any in this year's crop?
Dion Phaneuf was drafted in 2003 before the NHL introduced rule changes that eliminated the effectiveness certain defensive techniques.

Being physical in junior against players that have not matured is easy and not physically demanding. Being physical in the NHL against mature men is not as easy. See Eric Lindros.

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Old
06-30-2009, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Dion Phaneuf was drafted in 2003 before the NHL introduced rule changes that eliminated the effectiveness certain defensive techniques.
I don't think putting yourself out of position all the time is the effect of rule changes. He's young and will rebound, year one he couldn't even hit the net.

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Old
06-30-2009, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Dion Phaneuf was drafted in 2003 before the NHL introduced rule changes that eliminated the effectiveness certain defensive techniques.

Being physical in junior against players that have not matured is easy and not physically demanding. Being physical in the NHL against mature men is not as easy. See Eric Lindros.
What about Lindros? he was physically dominating player. He took on Pronger with no problem, rag dolled Scott Stevens and made Chara look foolish sometime. But ofcourse at the end...

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Old
06-30-2009, 12:33 PM
  #5
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When Komisarek was drafted it was said he had good offensive skills. That's not quite true in the end.

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Old
06-30-2009, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thrill View Post
What about Lindros? he was physically dominating player. He took on Pronger with no problem, rag dolled Scott Stevens and made Chara look foolish sometime. But ofcourse at the end...
It's a shame that post-2001 Lindros makes everybody forget how dominant pre-2000 Lindros was.

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Old
06-30-2009, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
It's a shame that post-2001 Lindros makes everybody forget how dominant pre-2000 Lindros was.
Amen. The only thing that could stop him on the ice was a concussion.

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Old
06-30-2009, 01:53 PM
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One of the weirdest ever is Marty Reasoner.

When he was drafted, he was compared to Craig Janney, perhaps the softest player the NHL has seen in the last 25 years. Reasoner was considered to be a highly skilled creampuff who would either be an elite scoring center or a bust. And carried that reputation right through his first couple NHL stints with St. Louis.

However, after he found out his skill couldn't carry him to a regular NHL job, he re-invented himself as a gritty 4th line center, PK guy, and one of the better shotblockers around, and has had a long career as a result. The absolute most polar transformation you could ever conceive.

For comparison, imagine if Rob Schremp cracked the NHL as a defensive specialist a few years from now.

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06-30-2009, 02:48 PM
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triggrman
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Shea Weber was supposed to have less offensive upside than Adam Foote. We were told he would be a stay at home guy.

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06-30-2009, 02:57 PM
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Probably Kesler, at most he would be a 3rd line checking center with hands of stone.

Put him on Wing and he's suddenly he's close to breaking the 30 goal mark.

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06-30-2009, 03:03 PM
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Two of the Sens top picks - Bonk and Hossa - had notorious reputations when drafted for being one-dimensional offensive players with no interest in back checking or playing at both ends.

A few years after being drafted, both were arguably the Sens top two defensive forwards.

I guess the lesson there is a coach can always TEACH defence.

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Old
06-30-2009, 03:04 PM
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Jaromir Jagr. I believe the book on him from THN was that he was 'Good at everything, but not great at anything'.

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Old
06-30-2009, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
Jaromir Jagr. I believe the book on him from THN was that he was 'Good at everything, but not great at anything'.
In the same draft issue, Geoff Sanderson was referred to as a guy whose biggest liability was his skating ability.

'Gritty warrior' Dan Tkaczuk basically quitting on the sport after one concussion would be another example.

Scott Walker has had a bizarre career where he morphed from a high-scoring junior defenseman to an NHL 4th line fighter and then to a scoring-line winger who finished top-25 in NHL scoring one year.

Jamie Rivers was called scored 121 points on the blueline one year in the OHL and was nicknamed 'The Riverboat Gambler' for his high-risk play coming through junior, earning comparisons to guys like Sandis Ozolinsh. He altered his game to stick in the NHL and became one of the most boring, low-scoring defenders in the league, averaging about 10 points/82 games in a journeyman 10-year career.

Mike Green was compared to Dan Hamhuis when drafted, and was expected to be a solid two-way 30-40 point defender. No-one in their right mind would have expected he'd turn into the league's most dominant offensive blueliner.

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Old
06-30-2009, 03:39 PM
  #14
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Bieksa was consdered a mobile if defensive defenceman. Little more than a third pairing fighter. Somehow he has two forty point seasons in three years.

Although he has only done it for a limited time Wellwood was a great defensive specialist in last year's playoffs. Not sure if that will carry over into this season.

Reasoner is the best example.

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Old
06-30-2009, 05:19 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Shea Weber was supposed to have less offensive upside than Adam Foote. We were told he would be a stay at home guy.
Yes, this is another case....

it's not unusual for offensive skilled to turn into the defensive player at the next level. Some will have to do that if their offense dont translate.

But it's harder to find a low scoring defensive jr turning into an offensive force in the NHL. Phaneuf and Weber are good examples...may be Kesler but I am not convinced yet.

I would say in the case of Weber, most scouts were wrong on him.

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Old
06-30-2009, 07:03 PM
  #16
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Positioning

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Originally Posted by CMacdonald View Post
I don't think putting yourself out of position all the time is the effect of rule changes. He's young and will rebound, year one he couldn't even hit the net.
It was possible to compensate for poor positioning by using the various obstruction techniques that were legal. Today the player is penalized.

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Old
06-30-2009, 07:15 PM
  #17
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Not Really

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thrill View Post
What about Lindros? he was physically dominating player. He took on Pronger with no problem, rag dolled Scott Stevens and made Chara look foolish sometime. But ofcourse at the end...
In junior he was physically dominating to the point that no one other than Owen Nolan and maybe one or two others would challenge him. He never corrected bad habits - playing with his head down, which carried over into the NHL.

When Eric Lindros first played in the NHL he would regularly make the highlights for his hits and for getting hit.As his career progressed it was more and more a question of getting hit - not only by the big boys but by Darius K, Ulanov and others. Eventually Eric Lindros never adjusted and wore down with the results we are all familiar with

He was physical but not dominating like a Howe or others who survived and had long careers.

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Old
07-01-2009, 02:35 AM
  #18
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Nick Schultz:

Suppose to be a two-way defenseman with good offensive ability
Now, he's a pure defensive defenseman

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Old
07-01-2009, 03:17 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
I remember when the Flames drafted Phaneuf. The scouting reports said he is a tough physical defensive dman with limited offensive abilities. If you look at him now, most would say the opposite, a offensive dman with limited defensive ability

Are there any other cases like this? Do we see any in this year's crop?
Well, he is still a physical force, and he is still young and may yet turn out a complete player. He's only a year removed from a Norris nomination.

cheers

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