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Higgins+McDonagh for Scott Gomez - Pt.II (All trade Related Posts Here)

View Poll Results: Did you like the trade?
Yes 41 18.47%
No 125 56.31%
We'll see 56 25.23%
Voters: 222. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
07-01-2009, 11:29 AM
  #476
Little Nilan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabus View Post
He wasn't signed here.... which begs the question, why wasn't our best player last season signed before the ufa market opened.
He wasn't the best player last season. Markov was, no debate here. Whether he was the best forward is also arguable as Kovalev lasted the whole season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Tanguay is a smallish playmaker, only he puts up more goals and more points. Tanguay is also at least as good defensively and probably better. In which way can Gomez possibly be considered better?
You consider him significantly better, that's precisely where we disagree. That I don't consider Tanguay significantly better doesn't mean I think Gomez is a better player than Tanguay.

That said, if you want me to make a case for Gomez vs Tanguay, I can do that to, since I think Gomez compares very, very favorably.

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Old
07-01-2009, 11:34 AM
  #477
mabus
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Tanguay was on pace for a 30 goal season before his injury. I can't understand letting tanguay go unsigned into free agency and massively overpaying like this for Gomez and his 7-8 mill 5 year contract.

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Old
07-01-2009, 11:45 AM
  #478
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tsn also agrees:

A Desperate Deal
The panel discuss why Bob Gainey came out on the short end of his trade for Scott Gomez.

They also mention how we've given up Streit, Souray, McDonagh, Valentenko and Komisarek for pretty much nothing. It's so sickening how bad Gainey has managed our assets...

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Old
07-01-2009, 11:46 AM
  #479
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I think both Gomez and Tanguay are good scoring line players. The comparison pretty much stops at them both having an easier time setting up a goal rather than burying the puck themselves.

They don't play the same position, they have a completely different team history as well.

I think they are both fine. To say that Gomez is "significantly better" is absurd. They are both in this category of scoring line forwards who can step up and contribute but are not elite.

Yet, the Gomez acquisition still sucks because of the contract and the assets given.

If we forget the contracts and everything, I think it's pretty much a wash but they are very different players. Overall in his career, Gomez gets his nose a little dirtier, is a more emotional player and although he isn't a scorer up close, he does work his way in the slot and tries things there. (in a way reminiscent of mid-career Koivu).

Tanguay may seem like he puts less effort at times but he is a great opportunist and that is a hockey quality too. He is a smart and very versatile player.

It's very close between the two.

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Old
07-01-2009, 11:52 AM
  #480
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Only 15% of the fan base here likes this trade. Not a surprise as it plain sucks!

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Old
07-01-2009, 11:57 AM
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
tsn also agrees:

A Desperate Deal
The panel discuss why Bob Gainey came out on the short end of his trade for Scott Gomez.

They also mention how we've given up Streit, Souray, McDonagh, Valentenko and Komisarek for pretty much nothing. It's so sickening how bad Gainey has managed our assets...
I'm pretty disgusted right about now

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Old
07-01-2009, 12:05 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Kareem View Post
That said, if you want me to make a case for Gomez vs Tanguay, I can do that to, since I think Gomez compares very, very favorably.
Please do. Tanguay is better offensively, better defensively, and cheaper. Tanguay is one of the very best even-strength producers in the league, too. I'm really curious what you'll base your argument on.

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Old
07-01-2009, 12:08 PM
  #483
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From CKAC, Habs really interested in Gionta. Not getting bigger.....but might be the only hope that the Gomez signing might not be as bad as predicted.

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Old
07-01-2009, 12:09 PM
  #484
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
From CKAC, Habs really interested in Gionta. Not getting bigger.....but might be the only hope that the Gomez signing might not be as bad as predicted.
We trying to replicate the Devils or what? Also Gionta is another 2nd liner guy.. We just had one in Higgins who will put up similar numbers.

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Old
07-01-2009, 12:11 PM
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Please do. Tanguay is better offensively, better defensively, and cheaper. Tanguay is one of the very best even-strength producers in the league, too. I'm really curious what you'll base your argument on.
Vlad really put it well, point by point. But I do think Gomez controls the flow of the game much better, which is something that doesn't end up on the stats sheet and that's completely lost on the common fan. I think he'll do very well in a system like Martin, where turnovers and puck possession are important.

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Old
07-01-2009, 12:23 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
We trying to replicate the Devils or what? Also Gionta is another 2nd liner guy.. We just had one in Higgins who will put up similar numbers.
Well you've got the coach that you hired. And then you got the player that the management wanted. So now that you are screwed with that player, his work ethic and his contract, you need to do everything you can to give him the best environment possible 'cause if not, it will be hell in Montreal. If Gionta is Gomez's best environment, I say we have no choice.

Note that it's far from being my type of team. I keep wanting a tough and bigger team. So we are not headed in that direction. But at one point you need to let go and play with what you have in hands. I still have the Gomez deal but hating it won't make it go away.

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Old
07-01-2009, 12:31 PM
  #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
From CKAC, Habs really interested in Gionta. Not getting bigger.....but might be the only hope that the Gomez signing might not be as bad as predicted.

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Old
07-01-2009, 12:43 PM
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellybeans View Post
Tony Marinaro will interview Chris Higgins on the Team 990

Source : http://www.team990.com/


Click on Listen
Can anyone post what was said in the interview?

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Old
07-01-2009, 12:59 PM
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
From CKAC, Habs really interested in Gionta. Not getting bigger.....but might be the only hope that the Gomez signing might not be as bad as predicted.
Yes. Let's compound our mistake of trading for an overpaid second-line center by giving him a small 20-goal winger.

I'm not against a Gionta signing, he'd be a fine complimentary player except that I really do feel we already have guys to fill that role on our team.

But if that's Bob's big catch, we're in disaster territory.

Brutal.

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Old
07-01-2009, 01:02 PM
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kareem View Post
But I do think Gomez controls the flow of the game much better, which is something that doesn't end up on the stats sheet and that's completely lost on the common fan.
I will actually give you that, and in spades. There actually are stats for this, unofficial ones mind, such as the Corsi rating, which measures shots attempted for and against as a measure of puck possession time. Like plus-minus this is a stat that's meaningful but has to be examined with caution.

In this department Tanguay is really good... but Gomez's Corsi is abso-lu-flipping-te-ly unreal.

It's just that it has to lead to scoring at some point otherwise you're looking at a lot of 2-1 games.

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Old
07-01-2009, 01:07 PM
  #491
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Well, frankly, I think the trade makes sense for a couple reasons.

Higgins did not become the player we thought he would. Gainey most likely thought he woud not resign him anyway.

McDonagh was seen as not improving at the speed we expected him too. I guess between Fisher and McDonagh the Rangers wanted McDo. Which one of these two will become the best player, we do not know. I only remember Balej and Plekanec were offered for Kovalev, and the Rangers ended up with Balej. I cannot believe that Gainey pulled the trigger on this one without a good, long talk with Timmins. Valentenko might just stay in Russia, and if he comes there is no guarantee he becomes a solid player for us. So, in essence, there are 2 trades.

Higgins vs Gomez, and McDonagh vs Pyatt. Busto and Valentenko are pretty much irrelevent (although, if he comes to the camp, Busto jokes might be really darned funny on this board).

Pyatt has potential for a 2nd liner, most likely a 4th liner, and a chance of staying an AHL scrub. Timmins generally has a good eye for talent, and we have decent scouts, so we'll see what becomes of this one. Pyatt for McDonagh is basically a gamble vs gamble trade. A crapshoot. But it's possible that Sather thoguht he was getting much more than that with this, which allowed Gainey to score Gomez (which Sather would certainly not let go for nothing, he's a pretty good GM).

So, yeah, Higgins vs Gomez.

Gomez is overpaid, but Gainey had the lowest cap hit of the league coming into the FA period, so it might not be too much of a problem, considering the Habs will still be based on youth. Gomez is a solid 2 way center, good on faceoffs, has 2 cup rings (and he performed well in both cups) and was the best +/- for centers on the Rangers squad, 1 point removed from leading his team in points despite playing 5 less games and being a playmaker with nobody to put it in the net. Gomez is, also, a player right at home with defensive systems that make great use of his speed, and he thus has a good chance of performing very well under Jacques Martin (who most likely had a say in this trade).

He is not a superstar, but an average 1st line center. He is, however, a well known playmaker that will help Gainey entice high end forwards to come along for a ride, like Martin Havlat or Marian "" Hossa (who signed in Chicago). He also brings great playoff experience, something our young team is sorely lacking.

What he brings overall makes him a good fit for the team, while Higgins had pretty much did his time with the team and Gainey has tried to deal him in the past. It was better for him to go.

Okay, now, this was the best case scenario.

It is very possible that Higgins regains his shape and becomes the goalscorer and strong leader we expected him to become. It's very possible that in may 2010 Gomez had only gathered 50 points on a 7th-8th ranked Habs team that got flushed in the 1st round again. It's also possible that it's the last time we ever hear the name Pyatt again barring his Vancouver based sibling and McDonagh becomes a monster that overshadows Brian Leetch.

But, frankly, it's been a long time since I wanted Gainey to break some eggs to make that omelette, and despite this trade having a good chance of being a total disaster, I'm behind it. Because it also has a chance to take the team further.

Anyway, I voted "We'll see".

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Old
07-01-2009, 01:28 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Please do. Tanguay is better offensively, better defensively, and cheaper. Tanguay is one of the very best even-strength producers in the league, too. I'm really curious what you'll base your argument on.
One thing Gomez has over Tanguay is playoff production. Over the past 5 seasons, Gomez has put up over a point per game (42-15-30-45), upping his regular season performance, while Tanguay has done the opposite, going from a near point per game scorer over the past 5 years in the regular season to 32-5-14-19 in the playoffs (to put it in perspective, it's the equivalent of 49 points over a full season--Gomez's playoff stats almost match that in 40 fewer games). This past playoffs was statistically Gomez's worst in the past five years, but he still led his team in scoring and his point per game average was higher than Tanguay's highest playoff performance in the past five years.

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Old
07-01-2009, 01:31 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by Genghis Keon View Post
One thing Gomez has over Tanguay is playoff production.
I'm always skeptical of playoff production because the sample is usually so small; most players have much less than a season's worth of playoff games.

At any rate, with the teams the Habs have right now, playoff production is almost certain to be a moot issue.

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Old
07-01-2009, 01:38 PM
  #494
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It's Still a Brain Cramp no matter how any one tries to SUGAR Coat this (Ugh!) Deal! It's like when your were a Kid, your mother may have given you medicine that taste awful, but tells you it's good for you, BUT it still tastes Awful, and you still might not get well, all it has done is upset your Stomach. What I want to Know did Gainey MORPHED into John Ferguson Jr.! What am I missing here. Gomez is turning 30 in DEC. his Best years is pasting him By, maybe they have already pasted him By. Sign HOSSA at least he won't cost the future just CASH, Habs need his Still hate LOSING RYAN no matter what any one says

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Old
07-01-2009, 01:56 PM
  #495
Genghis Keon
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I'm always skeptical of playoff production because the sample is usually so small; most players have much less than a season's worth of playoff games.
I agree in principle, but I don't see a whole lot of variation from year to year in this particular case. For instance, Gomez doesn't go from superstar stats to Thornton playoff stats, averaging out to a bit over a point per game, and Tanguay doesn't go from almost a point per game to almost nothing, averaging out to a bit over half a point per game. Gomez has seemed to consistently become about a point per game guy who leads his team in scoring (or is right up there), while Tanguay has seemed to consistently become a guy who'll put up just over half a point per game and be the fourth or fifth leading scorer on his team. To me, there seems to be enough consistency from year to year to call it a trend, despite the small sample size sizes and the overall small sample size.

Quote:
At any rate, with the teams the Habs have right now, playoff production is almost certain to be a moot issue.
Maybe, but I'm still expecting to make the playoffs, so, all things being equal, I'd rather have the guy who generally takes the reins than the guy who falls into the support role. With Gomez's salary, all things aren't equal, but we'll have to see what Tanguay gets.

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Old
07-01-2009, 02:00 PM
  #496
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Originally Posted by Genghis Keon View Post
Maybe, but I'm still expecting to make the playoffs, so, all things being equal, I'd rather have the guy who generally takes the reins than the guy who falls into the support role.
You're being rather optimistic. At this point the roster is considerably worse than 08-09, with several holes and Gomez being a small upgrade over Koivu. Even factoring in injuries, we clearly don't have a playoff roster.

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Originally Posted by Genghis Keon View Post
With Gomez's salary, all things aren't equal, but we'll have to see what Tanguay gets.
Agreed.... And Koivu as well. Ruefrontenac's description of Gomez as "Koivu for twice the money" isn't really fair, but it does strike dangerously close to home.

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Old
07-01-2009, 03:12 PM
  #497
mabus
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Ok now.... We've given away;

Valentenko, Higgins (who can hit and block shots, and is good for 15 or so goals a season), Koivu (good for 15-20 goals a season), McDonagh (1st line Dman in a season or two), and Komisarek at 6'4 and 240 pounds

and we've acquired

Gomez (good for 16 goals a season at 8 mill per season for 5 years) and
Spacek (5'11 204 pound dman)

Where did I put my smelling salts....

And we've still not re-signed Kovalev and Tanguay, we could lose them as well in this.

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Old
07-01-2009, 03:42 PM
  #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
tsn also agrees:

A Desperate Deal
The panel discuss why Bob Gainey came out on the short end of his trade for Scott Gomez.

They also mention how we've given up Streit, Souray, McDonagh, Valentenko and Komisarek for pretty much nothing. It's so sickening how bad Gainey has managed our assets...


That could have been our defensive core in 3 years. And not a bad one at that.

This is feeling Milbury-lite.

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Old
07-01-2009, 03:55 PM
  #499
mabus
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Just signed Hal Gill.... monstrous 6.7 240 pounds.

The good news is that we got Gill there, at a nice price, only 2 mill. But Spacek and Gill, where does this leave Komisarek? This is unquestionably an fantastic signing. But I would still like to see Komi sign, Gill is 34 years old and not a long term solution. Losing Komisarek and McDonaugh would hurt badly.

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Old
07-01-2009, 04:00 PM
  #500
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Pure lunacy on Gainey's part. Gomez has the worst contract in hockey outside of Rick DiPietro, and they gave up two good young players to get him. Bob ****ed up.

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