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Old
09-16-2009, 10:08 PM
  #76
Duguay2
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Colt;

not surprised to hear this from you, being a big WHL guy and all. It's been your
mantra for many moons.

Indeed team toughness is ultra important, but I wouldn't get too caught up in judging teams based on the most majors.

The numbers are there for all to see; majors don't equate to the Stanley Cup.

Team toughness plays a large role, but skill supersedes that in today's game.

Hey, I just want to see Boston win the Cup again, and even when this team was the toughest on the block, we always ended up losing at the end of the day.

This game is played for the Stanley Cup, and let no other measuring stick be applied.

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09-16-2009, 10:16 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by GloryDaze4877 View Post
By a "few years back" are you talking about Joey Kocur far back or something else? DET has guys, as Chia likes to say, that are "heavy on the puck", but I don't recall too many fighters other than McCarty. Draper was a scrapper and tough, but I don't think he dropped them much.

I think the problem was in one of your first comments, you said you would rather lose a game than get your ass kicked...which is ridiculous if we are talking about the NHL and not a beer league.
Ya, I'm talkin mid to late 90's Scotty Bowman years. Maybe a better Red Winds team than the current one? ...maybe not I don't know, but I like them more. They just had a perfect mix of skill and toughness. We've got loads of skill and no hate. Well, not enough hate... And yes I also realize points are much more important than TKO's in hockey but that was an ugly win. I asked myself what the he ll Burke wanted with PK but he definately has protection in place.

From the miniscule sample of "leafs hockey" i've seen BB is doing pretty decent job of turning their club into something their fans can start to be proud of practically over night.

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09-16-2009, 10:17 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
Vicky ---I have some patience here with you because I know English is your second language *but* you really have to put more effort into your reading comprehension. Or, seeing as you are a bright guy, you are trying too hard to be clever and read between the lines.

I said NOTHING of bringing in another fighter... quote me the part where I said that if you believe it to be true.

I would love to see us bring in a physical nasty SOB on D (like XLB). I've always believed that if you punish a team physically, good things will start to happen in terms of turn-overs, sustained pressure etc.

I love the snarl of guys like Marchand, Begin and Sobotka... I just want to see the exact same player 3 inches taller and 25pds heavier. Thornton is NOT a good hitter, Wheeler is a big, skilled weed and Bitz is another tall skinny guy that doesn't punish people on the forecheck.

Lucic causes turnovers, and creates speed for his linemates, but he can't be the only hitter in the forward line-up that installs fear in the opposition on the forecheck.
Colt I do agree somewhat..BUT what is more important is the player willing to take that big hit to make the right play. I see that with the Bruins. They take the hit to make the play. They will also stick up for each other if the other team crosses the line. I wouldnt read too much into what Toronto did. They still lost.

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09-16-2009, 10:29 PM
  #79
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i wish we still had the sheriff, always stood up for his teammates

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Old
09-17-2009, 12:27 AM
  #80
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I think the big problem with the Leafs is that their team identity this year is going to be about playing tough. Not necessarily 5 fights per game, but just hitting a lot, being aggressive, setting the tone. They'll probably have a lot of fights, but it's the overall style of play that will make life difficult. Let's face it, those games will be the most charged series this year.

I don't really see what the Bruins are going to do at this point to change their profile in this department. The team is largely a carryover from last year and I would say the net change is probably that they are slightly less tough. The real issue is, there aren't any open spots on the roster right now and anybody who might really push for a job is not going to make much difference to the toughness quotient. We've been through the lineup before and aside from Lucic (very tough) and Kobasew (hits a lot, aggressiveness can be a little erratic), the top 9 just are not very rugged. I know a legion of die hards will chime in about how Ryder and Krejci and some others are plenty gritty etc. but, you know, whatever. This is not yet a physically dominating team though Lucic alone offsets that issue because he's just such a force.

BTW I have to laugh at how much I keep reading about how Zach Kassian will be another Lucic. Sure. He's a big guy and he seems fairly tough and he'll play aggressive. But all the "next Lucics" that pop up over the next few years are not going to dominate like him - at all. The best that can be hoped for is that some of these guys distract him and preoccupy him to limit the havoc he can cause.

It's fashionable to say that the Bruins are plenty tough and that no one will push them around and that fighting is no longer a factor in the game. I don't have the energy to re-engage in those debates. I don't think this is a soft team that will be pushed around but I do think several other teams have the advantage in this area and a team that is really committed to playing them tough for 60 minutes will probably make for a difficult opponent for the Bruins. Fortunately, the Leafs don't currently have a whole lot of offense and their goaltending is iffy. So any advantage they have with physical play and size is probably irrelevant to the final outcome.

As far as Lucic and Orr, I think this whole matter is being overstated. I feel like the real fear here is that if a top notch fighter like Orr tunes up Lucic it will somehow evaporate the mystique of Lucic as some kind of superman. I mean, the kid is up on such a pedestal that I believe a lot of fans are afraid he'll get knocked off it if he has to face up to the elite tough guys. But, you know, c'mon. This kid is huge and tough and a good fighter and they all - ALL - lose plenty of fights along the way. Probert, Neely, O'Reilly, Boogaard - whoever you want to look at has lost more than once and sometimes badly. Not the end of the world if Orr gets the upper hand. But going into his third year and no longer being a gawky kid - he's now a respected NHL veteran, despite being so young - he'll be fine, win or lose, and he would probably handle himself well enough against just about anyone. He's lost to some legit tough guys and lived to fight on. Orr is not * that * scary. I just don't see Colton Orr as someone that Bruins need to specifically "do something about." If he and Lucic need to find each other a couple times this year, I don't think that's something we have to fear, even if Milan is not likely to clean up in those battles.

Bottom line: I don't see anything on the horizon that will change the kind of lineup they are likely to ice this year. I wish they had made some adjustments during the offseason to address some needs for more size and toughness (I still say they are net even at best from last year). The Leafs and some other teams have stepped it up in this part of the game. Fortunately, the Leafs in particular are not very close to being one of the better teams. Those games may be a lot more hotly contested and aggravating to watch this year, but I don't think they've got the Bruins number just yet.


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Old
09-17-2009, 12:30 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by TheBigBadB View Post
Colt I do agree somewhat..BUT what is more important is the player willing to take that big hit to make the right play. I see that with the Bruins. They take the hit to make the play. They will also stick up for each other if the other team crosses the line. I wouldnt read too much into what Toronto did. They still lost.
Issue is though that I really don't want guys like Sturm, Krejci, Bergeron, Recchi, Savard, Kessel ('memba him?) taking big hits to "make the play." These are not big guys who will stand up to regular punishment. In fact, several of them have some wear on them with injuries over the past 2-3 years. These are not strapping 6'2" 210lbs guys. It's great that they play with courage but a fired up big team can punish several of our players.

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09-17-2009, 12:44 AM
  #82
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Issue is though that I really don't want guys like Sturm, Krejci, Bergeron, Recchi, Savard, Kessel ('memba him?) taking big hits to "make the play." These are not big guys who will stand up to regular punishment. In fact, several of them have some wear on them with injuries over the past 2-3 years. These are not strapping 6'2" 210lbs guys. It's great that they play with courage but a fired up big team can punish several of our players.
Exactly.

Leading to injuries in the playoffs and a line-up that is a walking IR. Followed by an early playoff exit...

For examples, see everything last year in the playoffs...

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Old
09-17-2009, 12:48 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Duguay2 View Post
Colt;

The numbers are there for all to see; majors don't equate to the Stanley Cup.
No offense, but you are making a really silly, straw-man argument here as I never said anything of the sort.


Again, look at all the guys that were banged up by only round 2 and tell me how this team is going to get to the finals? Why were our 2 smallest Dmen (Hunwick and Ference) the only 2 D that we had unable to play?

Coincidence?


No. Both took injuries from hits they could not come back from. Yet Mark Stuart or Chara would have to be shot to be taken out of a playoff game...

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09-17-2009, 01:05 AM
  #84
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Colt, BTW, I was just telling Lou that if I was going to go out and get an emerging guy who is known for his tough play, it would be Joel Rechlicz. Only 21, but I think he's going to be one of the top guys and he's not ridiculous like some of his peers.

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09-17-2009, 02:13 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
No offense, but you are making a really silly, straw-man argument here as I never said anything of the sort.


Again, look at all the guys that were banged up by only round 2 and tell me how this team is going to get to the finals? Why were our 2 smallest Dmen (Hunwick and Ference) the only 2 D that we had unable to play?

Coincidence?


No. Both took injuries from hits they could not come back from. Yet Mark Stuart or Chara would have to be shot to be taken out of a playoff game...
This is an unfair shot at Hunwick I think. He took a hit that ruptured his spleen, I don't care who you are, or how big you are, it's a freak injury and no one could play through it. Ference I'll give you, though I seem to remember him being out due to groin problems.

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09-17-2009, 02:23 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
Exactly.

Leading to injuries in the playoffs and a line-up that is a walking IR. Followed by an early playoff exit...

For examples, see everything last year in the playoffs...
Yup, just look what even little Grabovski can do (knocking out Markov for the playoffs last season)

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09-17-2009, 04:48 AM
  #87
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Bruins have an extremely undersized forward corps...signing Begin adds to the grit department, but he's 6'0, 185...another small forward...add that to Savvy, Kessel, Bergeron, Krejci, Ryder, Kobasew, Sturm, Recchi, and we have 8 forwards at 6 feet and under...
Bergeron is 6'2"
Wheeler has added a lot of weight
And 6'0 is not small.

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09-17-2009, 05:18 AM
  #88
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Way too soon to " panic ", IMO. Yes, the Leafs tried their little "extravaganza " but lose the game 3-2. A wait and see approach seems more suitable...

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09-17-2009, 05:57 AM
  #89
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Tougher to play against or the "more size" debate. That's what I read into Colt's thread here.

On the tougher to play against, I don't think the team needs much. When healthy they are a good team, play physical, and stand up well to the other top teams in the league. Taking a hit to make a play or standing up for your teamates is key and they do this on a regular basis and do it well.

Wanting those same attributes AND more size is something that just about every GM would love to have and something Chia is working towards in my view.

Looking across the roster, we have legit fiesty, hard hitting guys in Chara, Lucic, Morris, Stuart, Begin, Thornton (when he connects), Sobotka (if he makes the team). We also have guys that hit hard but for puck seperation when given the chance in Bergeron and Kobasew and guys that can control the boards with their size in Wheeler and Bitz. In my view there are only 2-3 "soft" guys on the team and that's Kessel and Savard, perhaps Hunwick as well.

The B's ahve a very good balance of skill and hitting across the roster and can hang with anyone in any style as they showed last year.

I agree with Colt that the guys need to be aware of the cheap shot artists on the Toronto roster but I don't see that having 3 or 4 vs. perhaps 2 or 3 on a regular team is going to make that much a difference. A bad hit is a bad hit - regardless who make it - just ask Bergeron.

I think you will see size, skill and grit coming back one way or another with the Kessel deal and this B's team competing very well all year. Let Toronto have Orr, Exelby, Komi and the other dopes playing big minutes and watching from the penalty box as the their team loses, and loses and loses. Reality is we have 4 games where Wilson has the last change and as long as we're leading (as I expect we will more often than not), he can't afford to throw out the goons on the last change. The other 4 games Julien can work the match-ups and make it work for the B's. Finally I didn't see Wilson doing too much nasty stuff in SJ with the guys there and although he does come across as a *****, I don't see him being a guy to really appreciate the cheap stuff (unlike some other NHL coaches these days.)

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09-17-2009, 06:24 AM
  #90
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Tougher to play against or the "more size" debate. That's what I read into Colt's thread here.

On the tougher to play against, I don't think the team needs much. When healthy they are a good team, play physical, and stand up well to the other top teams in the league. Taking a hit to make a play or standing up for your teamates is key and they do this on a regular basis and do it well.

Wanting those same attributes AND more size is something that just about every GM would love to have and something Chia is working towards in my view.

Looking across the roster, we have legit fiesty, hard hitting guys in Chara, Lucic, Morris, Stuart, Begin, Thornton (when he connects), Sobotka (if he makes the team). We also have guys that hit hard but for puck seperation when given the chance in Bergeron and Kobasew and guys that can control the boards with their size in Wheeler and Bitz. In my view there are only 2-3 "soft" guys on the team and that's Kessel and Savard, perhaps Hunwick as well.

The B's ahve a very good balance of skill and hitting across the roster and can hang with anyone in any style as they showed last year.

I agree with Colt that the guys need to be aware of the cheap shot artists on the Toronto roster but I don't see that having 3 or 4 vs. perhaps 2 or 3 on a regular team is going to make that much a difference. A bad hit is a bad hit - regardless who make it - just ask Bergeron.

I think you will see size, skill and grit coming back one way or another with the Kessel deal and this B's team competing very well all year. Let Toronto have Orr, Exelby, Komi and the other dopes playing big minutes and watching from the penalty box as the their team loses, and loses and loses. Reality is we have 4 games where Wilson has the last change and as long as we're leading (as I expect we will more often than not), he can't afford to throw out the goons on the last change. The other 4 games Julien can work the match-ups and make it work for the B's. Finally I didn't see Wilson doing too much nasty stuff in SJ with the guys there and although he does come across as a *****, I don't see him being a guy to really appreciate the cheap stuff (unlike some other NHL coaches these days.)
You think Wilson's calling the shots in Toronto? The team will play Burke hockey and if WIlson has problem with that he's a goner.

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09-17-2009, 06:33 AM
  #91
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You think Wilson's calling the shots in Toronto? The team will play Burke hockey and if WIlson has problem with that he's a goner.
BB likes the borderline stuff, Wilson seems to be a little more even keel. It's not like Burke's going to come down from upstairs and tell Wilson he needs to have the guys out there taking cheap shots and fighting every night. Sure there will be a mantra of tough guys but as long as Wilson is winning, I don't think you'll see the cheap shot guys on the ice all that much. Burke isn't dumb enough to truly hang his hat on the truculence thing if they aren't winning - Anaheim wasn't a tough team until they actually started winning on a regular basis and could afford with their players to spend some time on the PK. Wilson is no Stevens.

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09-17-2009, 06:35 AM
  #92
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Bergeron is 6'2"
Wheeler has added a lot of weight
And 6'0 is not small.
Not to split hairs here, but the Yahoo height/weight stats are a bit off...Bergie's closer to 6'0 than 6'2...but you can scratch him off the list if you'd like...
Wheeler adding weight does not equate to toughness...hopefully it will help his durability issues from last year, but I see the same type of player returning to Boston...
6'0 is average, if not smallish for an NHL player...I'd rather have a team of contrasts than a team with small to average sized players (specifically on offense, as the D is a study in contrasts)...

If Kess is truly gone, I'd like to see the team bring some more size in on F...


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09-17-2009, 06:48 AM
  #93
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I had a feeling that a thread like this would have been started after last nights game. Were playing a newly constructed Leaf team, and one who was dressing a fistfull of guys (pun intended) that offer little more to a teams success other than the fact that they scrap.

If our Bruins were a creampuff hockey team then I would understand the "toughness" word in the thread headline, what is being presented here is the fisticuff toughness not team toughness. I think, specifically looking at the Dallas game last year that this club, which is essentially going to be the same, is more than capable of playing tough hockey, and hockey that will involve a few players dropping them from time to time when need be.

Going out and snagging some moron who, come playoff time will be up in the press box eating popcorn is just plain unnecessary IMO.

Would a Chris Neil be a nice addition?? Sure, but I am in no way/shape or form, after a game against a team who we all knew were/are going to attempt to play the knock em` down game all year,going to scream that we are a soft team who need to add some "policeman" in order to succeed. Just is not necessary.

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09-17-2009, 06:52 AM
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First off toronto dressed a very tough team last night and if they go with a team like that in the regular season they will loose 60 to 65 games very easy.I'm not to worried about them at all when it comes time to play hockey because the bruins will crush them because they still didn't get any legit forwords that can put the puck in the net.I agree that we should get a bit tougher but only on a call up basis for certain teams.A guy like Sean Mcmorrow would fit the bill as far as i'm concerned and will fight anyone and is a well seasoned fighter.

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09-17-2009, 06:58 AM
  #95
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First off toronto dressed a very tough team last night and if they go with a team like that in the regular season they will loose 60 to 65 games very easy.I'm not to worried about them at all when it comes time to play hockey because the bruins will crush them because they still didn't get any legit forwords that can put the puck in the net.I agree that we should get a bit tougher but only on a call up basis for certain teams.A guy like Sean Mcmorrow would fit the bill as far as i'm concerned and will fight anyone and is a well seasoned fighter.
Whatever lineup the Leafs dress this year has the potential to lost 60-65 games. I am of the belief that this Leaf lineup, although far tougher, will be killed by penalties and lack of front end talent. C`mon, Jason Allison for Gawds sakes, talk about grasping at straws.

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09-17-2009, 07:01 AM
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Whatever lineup the Leafs dress this year has the potential to lost 60-65 games. I am of the belief that this Leaf lineup, although far tougher, will be killed by penalties and lack of front end talent. C`mon, Jason Allison for Gawds sakes, talk about grasping at straws.
Agree 100%

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09-17-2009, 07:16 AM
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Who wants to compete for the Cup with skill players, when you can replace them with cementheads and compete with the Leafs for 10'th in the East and the hopes of getting a good 2012 player in the draft. Bring it on I say.

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09-17-2009, 07:28 AM
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Who wants to compete for the Cup with skill players, when you can replace them with cementheads and compete with the Leafs for 10'th in the East and the hopes of getting a good 2012 player in the draft. Bring it on I say.
10th? There gonna lose 50 games for sure if not more with or without kessel

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09-17-2009, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
Colt, BTW, I was just telling Lou that if I was going to go out and get an emerging guy who is known for his tough play, it would be Joel Rechlicz. Only 21, but I think he's going to be one of the top guys and he's not ridiculous like some of his peers.
I love the Recker....He's kind of a lunatic it seems but he is big and has lots of potential.

The guy they really missed the boat on was Mike Rupp. He should be the 4th line centerman. I like Begin, but Rupp has quite a fight card, handles himself well and has some real skill. I said it then, Chia should have gotten him here. He is perfect, and a great team guy.

I would have also made a bigger push for Lapierre....Lappy, Rupp and Thornton would have been a dynamite 4th line...

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09-17-2009, 07:34 AM
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Who wants to compete for the Cup with skill players, when you can replace them with cementheads and compete with the Leafs for 10'th in the East and the hopes of getting a good 2012 player in the draft. Bring it on I say.
bingo. size and fighting ability is vastly overrated. skill and toughness are important. you dont have to be big or mean to be tough you just have to be willing to play the body and be tenactious. sturm has toughness bergeron has toughness everyone on our defense with the exception so far of hunwick play with the right type of toughness. (and hunwick has shown flashes of playing tough ex. see the fight last year.) wheeler i think will gain toughness. he certainly has the size to play with a mean streak. when it comes down to it the only guys who arent tough right now id say are hunwick krejci savard and kessel. (and its doubtful kessel will be back)

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