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Bruins are going to need to get tougher...

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Old
09-17-2009, 07:37 AM
  #101
WBC8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFromNB View Post
Who wants to compete for the Cup with skill players, when you can replace them with cementheads and compete with the Leafs for 10'th in the East and the hopes of getting a good 2012 player in the draft. Bring it on I say.
Our top nine is easily the softest group of skilled forwards in the East IMO..That's basically the point I believe...

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09-17-2009, 07:37 AM
  #102
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also id love to know how we are less tough this year than last.

by my count as it stand now we lost ward and gained morris (call it a wash in my opinion)

we lost axelsson and yelle and gained begin. (axe and yelle combined don't have the toughness of begin.)

we lost hnidy and replaced him with boychuk or some other p-bruin to be the number 7 d-man. (ok lost some toughness but i wont sweat a slightly less tough 7th d-man)

if kessel doesn't return you say sturm replaces kessel and thats a slight upgrade in toughness.

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09-17-2009, 07:49 AM
  #103
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Again, am I the one who missed the point?

Our top 9 is small, and not that tough...The theory is they may wear down by the time the play-offs are here...Our defense is kind of small minus Chara and MStu as well.

The point isn't that the Leafs are good...but they are tough. Six games vs that D-core with our smaller forwards? They're going to take their shots.

IIRC DK, Kessel, Kobasew and Savard were all pretty banged up going into and out of the play-offs..

BTW, anybody think the Pens still win the Cup if they didn't add Guerin, Kunitz and to a lesser extent Craig Adams?

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09-17-2009, 08:11 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Again, am I the one who missed the point?

Our top 9 is small, and not that tough...The theory is they may wear down by the time the play-offs are here...Our defense is kind of small minus Chara and MStu as well.

The point isn't that the Leafs are good...but they are tough. Six games vs that D-core with our smaller forwards? They're going to take their shots.

IIRC DK, Kessel, Kobasew and Savard were all pretty banged up going into and out of the play-offs..

BTW, anybody think the Pens still win the Cup if they didn't add Guerin, Kunitz and to a lesser extent Craig Adams?
does anybody think the pens still win the cup if they didn't add wingers who could score? they won because of the skill of malkin and crosby and the fact that they had legit wingers in guerin and kunitz. not because guerin and kunitz are tough.

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09-17-2009, 08:11 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Our top nine is easily the softest group of skilled forwards in the East IMO..That's basically the point I believe...
Yet, our top 12 IMO is by far the deepest in their effectiveness. I respectfully disagree that they are "soft", I believe they may not be the banger/crasher type, but there is not one guy (save Kessel) who displays any signs of a lack of willingness to get into the corners and do the dirty work, which IMO is playing tough hockey.

I`ll take our top 12,followed by Philly`s as the top in the East where skill/toughness and willingness are the key ingredients to success.

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Old
09-17-2009, 08:16 AM
  #106
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In a way, we're just having fun with you guys that want the tougher team. Without losing skill, I expect all of us would like more toughness. The reality is, that tough but skilled players are a rare commodity. Same thing with defensively responsible puck moving defensemen. It's a simple thing to say you want tough players without going to the bottom of the standings, or puck moving defensemen without allowing 400 goals a year. But if both were easiy attainable, then there would be rosters full of these types of guys. PC has indicated the desire for more toughness and size, and generally he's stopped drafting munchkins. Things are progressing the right way, with Lucic, Wheeler, Bitz, Begin, there is some movement towards bigger and/or tougher players in the lineup recently.

When discussions start including Chris Neil, he of 3 goals in 60 games, as a means of adding toughness, it highlights just how bad the candidates are to provide both skill and toughness.

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Old
09-17-2009, 08:33 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Colt.45Orr View Post
Have you taken a few punches to the head yourself, or are you just pretending not to get it?
I never said anything about getting a goon...

I want guys that will cut hard to the net, and want to get dirty on the forecheck. On your example, Detroit, they have a huge forecheck presence in Franzen and a huge net presence in Holmstrom.

The type of guys I am talking about are some of the targets mentioned in a Kessel trade in Dubinsky (bigger, less skilled version of Mike Richards) and Colin Wilson (215pds and really leans into defenders that he powers through).
Who hasn't taken more then a few punches to the head?

You listed two guys on Detroit, one of the most consistently competitive teams in the NHL and use that as validation for needing to get tougher. I just don't see the disparity between that team and ours physically.

No offense cat, but you'd be hard pressed to make me think the Detroit Red Wings were more physical then last years Bruins. They have far more smallish forwards/Dmen that shy away from the physical game then Boston does, and far more is an understatement.

They are consistently one of the least physical teams in the league as far as hitting goes, they tend to not lay down in front of the puck to block a shot, and they all in all aren't an intimidating bunch physically. However they are also one of the least penalized teams, one of the best offensive teams, and will kill you with skill.

Detroit is the norm, and show that skill, not big physical players win games.

If you're argument is that big bodies are better because they are less fragile, I'd have issue with that as well. Injuries aren't depandant on size, and the more big bodies you have doesn't free your team from that burden. Chara has offseason surgeries just like everyone else.

I'd like to see a more physical top line center, mainly because I agree with the old size up the middle mantra. However, I think both Bergeron and Krejci can fill that niche once Savard walks.

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Old
09-17-2009, 08:50 AM
  #108
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Let's look at some of the moves Chiarelli has made going back to the deadline last year.

Out:
Lashoff
Karsums
Ward
Hnidy
Axelsson
Yelle
Montador
Kessel?

In:
Begin
Morris
Boychuk
Recchi
Bitz (late-season call-up last year)
anyone for Kessel?


In my opinion, the big moves here are Morris replacing Ward and Recchi playing on the second or third line. Boychuk is a #7 by necessity and Bitz is nice, but he's not going to get a lot of time.

Ward was always good at throwing the body around but his age is starting to catch up with him. He's slowed down a bit and that's taking its toll on his ability to throw the body around.

Morris is shorter but thicker than Ward and at least I think he's tougher.

Recchi, as has been mentioned, absolutely fits the "tougher to play against" and "bigger up front" mold even though he's not very big. His play screams "toughness" and Recchin' Ball is the perfect nickname for him.

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Old
09-17-2009, 08:52 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
I love the Recker....He's kind of a lunatic it seems but he is big and has lots of potential.

The guy they really missed the boat on was Mike Rupp. He should be the 4th line centerman. I like Begin, but Rupp has quite a fight card, handles himself well and has some real skill. I said it then, Chia should have gotten him here. He is perfect, and a great team guy.

I would have also made a bigger push for Lapierre....Lappy, Rupp and Thornton would have been a dynamite 4th line...
Rupp signed for 2 years, don't think chia would go there with the contracts and youth coming up. And Rechlicz is fine as a project enforcer, but the Bruins are too skilled and deep right now with real talent to give a spot to a guy with such limited upside.

It seems like the problem boston has isn't that they aren't tough enough, but that their tough players are too skilled to goon it up. Why should we discourage guys like Chara and Lucic from dropping the gloves when it is a large part of what makes them effective. The alternative, and I guess what's being promoted here, is finding some goon fodder to throw at other teams.

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Old
09-17-2009, 09:06 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic Rattlehead View Post
A lot of the big guys for the Leafs are fourth liners/bottom pairing defensemen/fringe players. Do you really want the Bruins to plug those types of players into their lineup?

To be perfectly honest, your obsession with fighting and big guys plays a factor in these types of threads....as well as your man-crushes for (useless) players like Brian Boyle.

I agree about adding more size on offense, but I don't want to do that at the expense of actual NHL talent. Bring in big guys WITH talent, not big guys devoid of talent (Colton Orr).
Agreed! I think will be fine. Lets win on the score sheet as we did last night. I do agree with PC about having/acquiring bigger, equally talented forwards tho. I remember the Dallas game last year remember? How about the Anaheim game?

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09-17-2009, 09:09 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Kaoz View Post
Less goals, more punches to faces!

The Detroit Redwings.

That is all.
well, we are down one 36 goal scorer.......

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Old
09-17-2009, 09:14 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by bb_fan View Post
well, we are down one 36 goal scorer.......
Too bad last year's goals don't count this year.

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Old
09-17-2009, 09:26 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by FallsForItEveryYear View Post
does anybody think the pens still win the cup if they didn't add wingers who could score? they won because of the skill of malkin and crosby and the fact that they had legit wingers in guerin and kunitz. not because guerin and kunitz are tough.
If you don't think Guerin and Kunitz are both bigger and/or more rugged than any of Kessel, Sturm, Ryder, Axelsson, etc., then I think you're just seeing what you want to see.

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09-17-2009, 09:39 AM
  #114
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>>Wheeler has added a lot of weight

So have I, it doesn't mean I want to fight Colton Orr

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09-17-2009, 09:43 AM
  #115
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>>When discussions start including Chris Neil, he of 3 goals in 60 games, as a means of adding toughness, it highlights just how bad the candidates are to provide both skill and toughness

Ah, but that's pretty selective use of stats. I could just as easily point out that Neil scored 14, 15 goals, whatever it was, and that is in fact a very good combo of toughness and some skill.

But, whatever, there actually are quite a few players around the league who play a rugged game, whether via a lot of hitting or even fighting, and who are real contributors to their team.

You know, I think this is really the root of Chiarelli's reluctance to sign Kessel to a big deal. Kessel is as one dimensional in his own way (a way that is obviously very important) as a player like C Orr is in his way. Chiarelli is looking for more all-around players I believe. Maybe it's just a matter of time until the likes of Marchand start coming in. But I do believe Chiarelli would like as many balanced players as possible and less emphasis on "role" players.

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09-17-2009, 09:46 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
If you don't think Guerin and Kunitz are both bigger and/or more rugged than any of Kessel, Sturm, Ryder, Axelsson, etc., then I think you're just seeing what you want to see.
They are (exept for Guerin who's toughness is overrated now) but they still didn't win because of it. Playing with poor player all year long had Crosby loosing is fire. When they replace Pascal (I can slap shot the puck when I hit the blue line) Dupuis for guys who could actualy make plays it put them away of the pack cause they had two of the best line in hockey and they weren't shy of playing them.

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09-17-2009, 09:52 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
>>When discussions start including Chris Neil, he of 3 goals in 60 games, as a means of adding toughness, it highlights just how bad the candidates are to provide both skill and toughness

Ah, but that's pretty selective use of stats. I could just as easily point out that Neil scored 14, 15 goals, whatever it was, and that is in fact a very good combo of toughness and some skill.
You can't base selections on what players used to be capable of. He's scored 16, 12, 6, and 3 goals in the last 4 years, and 33, 28, 20, and 10 points. Sure sign up the Chris Neil of 4 years ago, not the one who statistically is likely to score 1 goal and 5 points this year.

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09-17-2009, 09:55 AM
  #118
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I agree with the B's needing some more jam up front. I think Bitz is a guy who could/should contribute more in the physical department. It was nice seeing him get into a couple tussles last night, but he also played through the entire game without registering a single hit. It's definitely something he has to make a conscious effort to do more of. He does have the skating ability and body mass to be physical presence. We saw it at times in his stint last season (still not enough though).

This team didn't change much at all from last season and I'm not worried about being too soft or not tough enough. I actually like the blend of skill and toughness Chiarelli has assembled.

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Old
09-17-2009, 09:57 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by DaveFromNB View Post
You can't base selections on what players used to be capable of. He's scored 16, 12, 6, and 3 goals in the last 4 years, and 33, 28, 20, and 10 points. Sure sign up the Chris Neil of 4 years ago, not the one who statistically is likely to score 1 goal and 5 points this year.
Then I guess we are screwed paying Patrice Bergeron $4M+ per year. Right?

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Old
09-17-2009, 10:00 AM
  #120
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>>They are (exept for Guerin who's toughness is overrated now) but they still didn't win because of it.

So how can we even debate this then? If you can just say "that's not why they win," then there is no point to discussing it.

All I know is the Bruins lost in the 2nd round last year, on home ice, and they have not significantly changed the team this year (except possibly negatively if Kessel leaves for futures). So what will they "win because of?"

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09-17-2009, 10:07 AM
  #121
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Then I guess we are screwed paying Patrice Bergeron $4M+ per year. Right?
The difference is that we're not offering him a contract based on his last 2 years work, he was already on a guaranteed deal. You have to sleep in the bed you already made.

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09-17-2009, 10:07 AM
  #122
FallsForItEveryYear
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
If you don't think Guerin and Kunitz are both bigger and/or more rugged than any of Kessel, Sturm, Ryder, Axelsson, etc., then I think you're just seeing what you want to see.
i agree that guerin and kunitz are rugged players but saying pitt went from mediocre playoff team to Stanley Cup winner because they added tough guys is seeing what you want to see. the reason pitt was better after acquiring those guys is because they could score and be above average wingers for the malkin and crosby. no one is saying toughness isnt a nice asset but it is far from the most important.

do you want dubinsky instead of kessel? is dubinsky going to make us a better team than we would be with kessel? does dubinsky's toughness make up for the glaring difference in offensive skill? i don't think so. and thats about the closest thing to a gritty skilled player that is available right now. please tell me what player boston can possibly get and who you want to ship out that improves this team. cause i don't see anyone with a combination of grit and skill available that makes me want to jettison someone slotted in our current top 9.

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Old
09-17-2009, 10:15 AM
  #123
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so let's say that kessel gets shipped to the sun as an offering to the sun god for it's continued support of the earth and the first lines look something like this when krejci gets back:

lucic - savard - wheeler
sturm - krejci - ryder
recchi - bergeron - kobasew

colt is absolutely right that the only guy with legitimate size there is wheeler, who might also be the worst at throwing hits other than savard; that having been said, sturm checks regularly despite being 5'11", we all know what lucic does, and the third line hits hard and often

i think a more apt take than "need to get tougher" might be "bruins need to somehow keep the qualities of the third line in terms of hitting and replace it with guys that are bigger and more likely to withstand the rigors of an entire season of hitting"

which to me means that you ship out your 3rd line center to find a guy with similar defensive qualities but who is a half foot taller; obviously when savard walks you're going to overpay for your 2nd line center next year but so long as it's for less than $4.75 million (and the best comparable, Vermette, just signed for $3.7 something), it's a net win

as for the top 6 guys needed to be bigger and tougher: those guys are almost as valuable as top defensemen, it's not like there are a lot of even 40 point wings that are north of 6'2" and hit often

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Old
09-17-2009, 10:16 AM
  #124
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To me, it depends on what your definition of toughness is. Playing through injuries, sacrificing the body to make a pass, laying out in front of a player to block the shot, standing up for a teammate, those are all demonstrations of tough, rugged play, and areas where this team has certainly shown toughness, IMO.

If by tough you mean hitting and or fighting, then I guess the real question is where do these supposed tough guys play? Would you move out someone out to make room for a guy like Neil? If so, who goes? I personally would rather have a team that can roll out 3 balanced scoring lines, rather than clogging up the offense for the sake of keeping a bunch of grinders who can out hit people on the roster.

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Old
09-17-2009, 10:19 AM
  #125
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Only HF!!!

Lets take a look at the top teams in the East:
Pittsburgh:
Crosby
Malkin
Guerin
Kunitz
Staal
Fedotenko
Dupuis
Cooke
T. Kennedy

WOW LOOK HOW TOUGH THEY ARE. Their skill players are soft, they will never win anything....oh wait.

Philadelphia:
Briere
Richards
Gagne
Giroux
Harnell
Asham
Laperriere
Carcillo
Powe

Tougher but not nearly as skilled as our top 9. Take away their 3rd line and our top 6's and the "toughness" difference isn't much of a difference.

Overstated thread.

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