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Are the Habs that much better?

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Old
07-02-2009, 02:23 PM
  #26
fufonzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielson81 View Post
I agree that the potential is there...but the sad thing is...for the last two or three years the potential has also been there
Exactly. And that potential hadn't really worked out, right? So why would we think that the potential would now come to fruition by keeping guys like Koivu and Kovalev now being 2-3 years older than they were back then?

Nothing is guaranteed with these new players, and we may all very well be disappointed, but this doesn't change the fact that I'm extremely excited to see how it's going to turn out.

I'd rather be excited on brand new potential than wait and hope for the same potential that's disappointed me these past few seasons.

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07-02-2009, 02:25 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Did the Habs suck last year, did the Habs get outworked consistently? Were there massive rumors of off ice problems from certain players?

Last season was a disaster, Gainey changed the core of the club, improved our speed and got players that are harder workers while still being very skilled.

As for McDonagh, what does he have to do with the Habs, he's going to be in the NCAA next year and is likely a couple years away from the nhl.

With a new coach, and new players, this club will be better in their own end, faster and work harder then past teams have. Imo it's a good start considering that no UFA's in the past have wanted to sign here, so I'm actually surprised Gainey got what he did.



Were you a former Nords fan by any chance? Just wondering.
Well played sir, well played.

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07-02-2009, 02:27 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Did the Habs suck last year, did the Habs get outworked consistently? Were there massive rumors of off ice problems from certain players?

Last season was a disaster, Gainey changed the core of the club, improved our speed and got players that are harder workers while still being very skilled.

As for McDonagh, what does he have to do with the Habs, he's going to be in the NCAA next year and is likely a couple years away from the nhl.

With a new coach, and new players, this club will be better in their own end, faster and work harder then past teams have. Imo it's a good start considering that no UFA's in the past have wanted to sign here, so I'm actually surprised Gainey got what he did.



Were you a former Nords fan by any chance? Just wondering.
Are we really harder working? Honestly?

Saku --> Gionta: about the same
Gomez --> Kovalev: both guys are known as floaters, but neither rep is fully deserved. Kovalev played with more heart than people gave him credit for; pretty much same for Gomez
Higgins --> He may have been inconsistent but he worked hard
Komisarek --> Spacek: Komi may have sucked, but did he ever take games off? Spacek is a solid vet who always puts in the effort. Again a wash.
Tanguay --> Cammalleri: Tanguay wasn't an intense competitor but he showed up. Cammalleri is a consistent offensive producer who will work to produce goals, but he is far from an industrious Iginla or anything.
Bouillon --> Gill. Bouillon worked as hard as anyone. Gill? I was always too busy laughing at him to notice how hard he is working.

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Old
07-02-2009, 02:33 PM
  #29
Max Levine
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I think the Habs improvement started with the hiring of a better coach. The questions remained: who will play for him? Who will be comfortable in a defensive system? Who will accept the play style without pouting?

Gainey had to clean the house. The atmosphere was atrocious despite all the talent we had on paper. Hiring two ex-Devils and a hardworking sniper seems to fit into Jacques Martin's style. I was hoping for major change and that's what we got. So, I'm happy

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07-02-2009, 02:34 PM
  #30
montreal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonacoBlue View Post
Are we really harder working? Honestly?

Saku --> Gionta: about the same
Gomez --> Kovalev: both guys are known as floaters, but neither rep is fully deserved. Kovalev played with more heart than people gave him credit for; pretty much same for Gomez
Higgins --> He may have been inconsistent but he worked hard
Komisarek --> Spacek: Komi may have sucked, but did he ever take games off? Spacek is a solid vet who always puts in the effort. Again a wash.
Tanguay --> Cammalleri: Tanguay wasn't an intense competitor but he showed up. Cammalleri is a consistent offensive producer who will work to produce goals, but he is far from an industrious Iginla or anything.
Bouillon --> Gill. Bouillon worked as hard as anyone. Gill? I was always too busy laughing at him to notice how hard he is working.
I don't see the point in comparing players. This is a team sport and as a whole, imo this team will be a harder working team, from what the new coach will bring, to the new players.

I don't know Gomer to be a floater, guess we'll find out. Gionta should be one of the hardest working players on the club next year I'd wager (or Lappy) Cammalleri I can't say since I haven't seen much of him so we'll see. As for laughing at Gill, were you laughing in the cup finals? Cause he was one of their best D, especially on the PK.

Agreed on Higgins and Bouillion, it was a tough year for both though, and changes had to be made.

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Old
07-02-2009, 02:39 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielson81 View Post
Wasn't trying to point to any certain agenda...

Actually also add in Higgins and keeping McDonough

To Me
Kovalev, Koivu, Tanguay, Higgins and McDonaugh
is better than
Cammy, Gomez and Gionta

How can anyone argue that?
Yah, I don't see how anyone can argue that either. But plenty of Habs fans are drunk on the kool-aid right now. It will be interesting to see if that high lasts through October. I sure hope it does. Sober analysis wouldn't allow anybody to pick the incoming trio over the outgoing 5. At least, not on paper. But hockey isn't played on paper, and who knows, maybe things will work out better on the ice, a lot of people (and Gainey) seem to be hitching themselves to that hope.

And there's a lot of things that can contribute to the Habs improving next season which would stand independent from those 8 names. So I'm willing to believe that if all goes reasonably well for the Habs, particularly for guys like Price, Kostitsyn, Plekanec, and the systematic change Martin brings in pays off as it should, then those factors will dominate over the difference between the outgoing and incoming UFAs.

In which case, all I really lament is the salary inefficiencies we signed up to with guys like Gionta and Gomez. There's another solid player worth of money locked up in them, and we'll never be able to measure the impact that extra player could have had in the equation. Or the true star player we might have dreamed of signing at some point in the next 4 summers of free agency, had we the additional flexibility of guys like Koivu/Kovalev on shorter term contracts instead of locking ourselves down for 5 years.

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07-02-2009, 02:42 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montreal View Post
Were you a former Nords fan by any chance? Just wondering.
Dude, you stole my line

And its better if you say "it might be worth it to remove your Fleur-de-lys colored glasses.

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Old
07-02-2009, 02:44 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Yah, I don't see how anyone can argue that either. But plenty of Habs fans are drunk on the kool-aid right now. It will be interesting to see if that high lasts through October. I sure hope it does. Sober analysis wouldn't allow anybody to pick the incoming trio over the outgoing 5. At least, not on paper. But hockey isn't played on paper, and who knows, maybe things will work out better on the ice, a lot of people (and Gainey) seem to be hitching themselves to that hope.

And there's a lot of things that can contribute to the Habs improving next season which would stand independent from those 8 names. So I'm willing to believe that if all goes reasonably well for the Habs, particularly for guys like Price, Kostitsyn, Plekanec, and the systematic change Martin brings in pays off as it should, then those factors will dominate over the difference between the outgoing and incoming UFAs.

In which case, all I really lament is the salary inefficiencies we signed up to with guys like Gionta and Gomez. There's another solid player worth of money locked up in them, and we'll never be able to measure the impact that extra player could have had in the equation. Or the true star player we might have dreamed of signing at some point in the next 4 summers of free agency, had we the additional flexibility of guys like Koivu/Kovalev on shorter term contracts instead of locking ourselves down for 5 years.
I agree Gomez is overpaid, and Cammel is a slight overpayment, but Gionta only makes 1 mil more than he did in Jersey in the last few seasons. If you consider he was signed on the market, its not much of an overpayment.

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Old
07-02-2009, 02:47 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielson81 View Post
Wasn't trying to point to any certain agenda...

Actually also add in Higgins and keeping McDonough

To Me

Cammallerri, Kovalev, Koivu, Tanguay, Higgins and McDonaugh

is better than

Cammy, Gomez and Gionta

How can anyone argue that?
We would not have gotten Cammy since he signed to play with Gomez.

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07-02-2009, 02:52 PM
  #35
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Fans need to remember what this does for the team is it sets a tone, atmosphere, and identity!

Our top line will have two scorers and a playmaker...opposed to two playmakers and a scorer...

Our top line will be fast and skilled, utilizing puck possession and rushes off the first pass and good transition through the neutral zone

Our top line mainly gio and calamari will actually go to corners, play the net, go thru traffic etc

Also it sets a certain work ethic which allows teammates to feed off the energy and it also establishes clear cut roles!

last year was pleks first center or koivu? see the TREMENDOUS amount of pressure pleks constantly put on himself why? because his role wasn't clearly defined!

same with akost...first he is scoring and rewarded with good linemates then demoted...promoted etc all over the place! near the end BG had established some type of roles for everyone aka --> tang, koivu, kovy (top line), higgy (pk, energy), schneid (pp specialist) etc. and ppl started playing better of course till injuries took over!

now our second line will not have as much pressure especially pleks because he will no longer be THAT GUY!

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07-02-2009, 02:55 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhuya71 View Post
Fans need to remember what this does for the team is it sets a tone, atmosphere, and identity!

Our top line will have to scorers and a playmaker...opposed to two playmakers and a scorer...
...and 3 Cups. They're hard workers and have enjoyed success in a defensive system.

Did we get MUCH better? No. Did we get better? Yes.

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07-02-2009, 02:57 PM
  #37
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wait until we start playing. this team needed changes, gainey made them to what he thinks will make us a more competitive team. with our new coach, there could of been problems with following his system if we kept the same team. theres a new identity in montreal and it's refreshing. we all seen the success gomez and gionta had in new jersey, and thats not even what excites me about those two it's the fact that they are talented players who imo will play in martins system and excel in it.

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07-02-2009, 02:59 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhuya71 View Post
Fans need to remember what this does for the team is it sets a tone, atmosphere, and identity!

Our top line will have to scorers and a playmaker...opposed to two playmakers and a scorer...

Our top line will be fast and skilled, utilizing puck possession and rushes off the first pass and good transition through the neutral zone

Our top line mainly gio and calamari will actually go to corners, play the net, go thru traffic etc

Also it sets a certain work ethic which allows teammates to feed off the energy and it also establishes clear cut roles!

last year was pleks first center or koivu? see the TREMENDOUS amount of pressure pleks constantly put on himself why? because his role wasn't clearly defined!

same with akost...first he is scoring and rewarded with good linemates then demoted...promoted etc all over the place! near the end BG had established some type of roles for everyone aka --> tang, koivu, kovy (top line), higgy (pk, energy), schneid (pp specialist) etc. and ppl started playing better of course till injuries took over!

now our second line will not have as much pressure especially pleks because he will no longer be THAT GUY!
Well said bro.

I'd also like to add that Gomer-Cammel and Gionta have the clear potential to put up as many goals if not more than the KPK line in 07-08.

Add that to a well-working Pleks and AKost duo, with Lats, MaxPax or SKost as the other winger, and we'll have two very quick lines. The two first lines be a pain in the arse for any team going up against the Habs.

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Old
07-02-2009, 03:08 PM
  #39
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Its less about a massive upgrade in skill and more about a change.

Cammallerri, Gomez & Gionta are younger, faster, more consistent and at least as skilled (if not more) than Koivu, Kovalev & Tanguay. To be blunt, Koivu & Kovalev had their chance for several years and didn't get us past the 2nd round of the playoffs... It doesn't mean they are bad players, but its a fact. I don't see why some are so down on our new signings before they have a chance to step on the ice.

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07-02-2009, 03:26 PM
  #40
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Michael Cammalleri has played 4 straight seasons in NHL and has already had 2 80pt seasons,
he can definitely rival Kovalev and Tanguay in scoring department and he's only 27 years old.

Scott Gomez, although his contract is ridiculous you cant deny that he isn't great playmaker.
He isn't that much of a upgrade from Koivu, but he is 5 years younger than him and still
has alot of game left in him and with his old teammate Brian Gionta next to him, who knows.

Brian Gionta. Well he isn't anything special when compared to Kovy or Tanguay.
Though he is younger, i'd resign Kovy or Tanguay over this guy any day.
The only thing i see in Gionta is that he and Gomez could really hit it off,
considering he and Gomez are old teammates.

Look it at this way
* Age difference, Koivu is pushing 34 and is definitely playing his final year/years, thats a given.
Kovy 36 years old, he's definitely still a great player but let's face it, how many good years does he have left in him?
* Mike Cammalleri big difference maker and upgrade to roster, average 80pts per season.
* Yes Scott Gomez has horrible contract but he pretty much was the key in luring Mike and Gionta in.
* And like habsfanwuc posted, this team needed changes, because liked it or not Habs as it were was just spinning around in circles


Though it's too bad they didn't sign one of the three Tang, Kovy or Koivu for the 2# line. They sure would have needed it.


My first post plz dont shoot me

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Old
07-02-2009, 03:29 PM
  #41
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I want to say we're better but we just don't know until we see them on the ice. One thing is for sure, this off season has been far more entertaining than the regular season. It's only July 2, I'm sure there some more things to come.

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07-02-2009, 03:29 PM
  #42
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Room got a bit stale...some new faces and attitudes might be just what we need.

We got younger, faster, and more complete players.

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07-02-2009, 03:31 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Yah, I don't see how anyone can argue that either. But plenty of Habs fans are drunk on the kool-aid right now. It will be interesting to see if that high lasts through October. I sure hope it does. Sober analysis wouldn't allow anybody to pick the incoming trio over the outgoing 5. At least, not on paper. But hockey isn't played on paper, and who knows, maybe things will work out better on the ice, a lot of people (and Gainey) seem to be hitching themselves to that hope.
The way I see it, Higgins and McDonagh are the price it took to make the core significantly younger. Gomez is five years younger than Koivu, and is probably significantly younger than that in terms of their real age because of Koivu's fight with cancer and injuries. Cammalleri is 9 years younger than Kovalev. Gionta and Tanguay are essentially the same age (they're slightly less than a year apart and neither has had any significant health problems/injuries that could shorten their effectiveness). I think Tanguay is a better player than Gionta (how much better is up for debate and could well change in the future), but Gionta's is one of these never say die guys, which should help spark the team.

Is Higgins and McDonagh too high a price to pay to essentially have two of our three core producers take a drink from the fountain of youth (assuming it is a lateral move, with Koivu and Kovalev, you're going from decline/brink of decline to prime again, or at least buying five years and potentially more of sustained production)? I don't know. I don't think this is a championship core offensively (a lot of nice complementary pieces, but I don't see that one guy to lead the way), but it wasn't a championship core before either, so we're buying more time to either get that piece or to have one of our guys legitimately step up into that role.

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Old
07-02-2009, 03:40 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
Calling ReDux.

Another PPG argument going on.
at this point all i can say now is... lazy europeans vs hard working players :/ , sorry guys, ive never played that card before but enough is enough, tanguay was lazy, kovy was lazy and not enough heart, saku had the heart and wasnt lazy , but he is not 34... sometimes, last 3 seasons, late in the season, he looked 40 ...

the guys we got,... .there hot to trot...deal with it.

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Old
07-02-2009, 03:46 PM
  #45
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What everyone seems to forget is who Koivu was playing with. People claim he is on a decline, that he isn't the same guy. Who was his linemates almost the entire season? Higgins, Latendresse and Tanguay. How many goals did the former two score? Of those players the only established player is Tanguay, who went down with a shoulder injury and was sidelined for four months. Tanguay was beast like when he lined up with Koivu, although admittedly he did have off games.

That said when was our developing scorer in Andrei Kostitsyn played with Koivu? Never. How long before Kovalev, arguably our best player, was lining up with our best centre? Half the season. When Tanguay, Koivu and Kovalev were finally put together, as they were our best players by a mile last season, they decimated three teams, netting 13 points in three games. That was until Gainey got the bright idea to put Laraque in the mix and attempted to match Boston physically.

The point is while I do believe Koivu has seen better years due to age, we have rarely provided him the opportunity to play with established players. He now has the potential to centre Marian Hossa in Chicago, Marty Havlat in Minnesota or Teemu Selanne in Anaheim and I wholeheartedly believe we will learn the hard way, just what we gave up.

I will reserve judgment until around the All Star break as to whether or not we are a better team. I am however not happy with the deals overall for reasons I have stated elsewhere. I am however curious as to what will happen.

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07-02-2009, 03:47 PM
  #46
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
I agree Gomez is overpaid, and Cammel is a slight overpayment, but Gionta only makes 1 mil more than he did in Jersey in the last few seasons. If you consider he was signed on the market, its not much of an overpayment.
Gionta was paid that $4M for scoring a whole chunk more than he did the last 3 years. He was already getting $1M more than he earned, now he's getting $2M more? Well, not to say he couldn't earn it back. Throw $1M on to what he deserves just because it was a UFA signing. Still leaves it $1M too high IMHO. Until he proves otherwise. Higgins can score 20 goals for under $3M, if that's what Gionta gives us. These $1M overpayments add up if there are enough of them.

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07-02-2009, 03:48 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Verb4tim View Post
Michael Cammalleri has played 4 straight seasons in NHL and has already had 2 80pt seasons,
he can definitely rival Kovalev and Tanguay in scoring department and he's only 27 years old.

Scott Gomez, although his contract is ridiculous you cant deny that he isn't great playmaker.
He isn't that much of a upgrade from Koivu, but he is 5 years younger than him and still
has alot of game left in him and with his old teammate Brian Gionta next to him, who knows.

Brian Gionta. Well he isn't anything special when compared to Kovy or Tanguay.
Though he is younger, i'd resign Kovy or Tanguay over this guy any day.
The only thing i see in Gionta is that he and Gomez could really hit it off,
considering he and Gomez are old teammates.

Look it at this way
* Age difference, Koivu is pushing 34 and is definitely playing his final year/years, thats a given.
Kovy 36 years old, he's definitely still a great player but let's face it, how many good years does he have left in him?
* Mike Cammalleri big difference maker and upgrade to roster, average 80pts per season.
* Yes Scott Gomez has horrible contract but he pretty much was the key in luring Mike and Gionta in.
* And like habsfanwuc posted, this team needed changes, because liked it or not Habs as it were was just spinning around in circles


Though it's too bad they didn't sign one of the three Tang, Kovy or Koivu for the 2# line. They sure would have needed it.


My first post plz dont shoot me
Good first post, I'm thinking you're a Koivu fan? We've got a kid named Nattinen in the system now that you're going to like in a few years.
Don't forget Petteri Simila too.

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07-02-2009, 03:51 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhuya71 View Post
Fans need to remember what this does for the team is it sets a tone, atmosphere, and identity!

Our top line will have two scorers and a playmaker...opposed to two playmakers and a scorer...

Our top line will be fast and skilled, utilizing puck possession and rushes off the first pass and good transition through the neutral zone

Our top line mainly gio and calamari will actually go to corners, play the net, go thru traffic etc

Also it sets a certain work ethic which allows teammates to feed off the energy and it also establishes clear cut roles!

last year was pleks first center or koivu? see the TREMENDOUS amount of pressure pleks constantly put on himself why? because his role wasn't clearly defined!

same with akost...first he is scoring and rewarded with good linemates then demoted...promoted etc all over the place! near the end BG had established some type of roles for everyone aka --> tang, koivu, kovy (top line), higgy (pk, energy), schneid (pp specialist) etc. and ppl started playing better of course till injuries took over!

now our second line will not have as much pressure especially pleks because he will no longer be THAT GUY!
good post bro, good post, u identify important things and i also agree, its not pleks fault nobody would tell him if he was first line center or 2nd, i think its obvious now, and i think pleks is going to THRIVE watching hard working players out there, because ive seen pleks work his ass off many times, hopefuly akost gets less lazier, but the oher lazy players are gone

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07-02-2009, 03:53 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genghis Keon View Post
...I don't think this is a championship core offensively (a lot of nice complementary pieces, but I don't see that one guy to lead the way), but it wasn't a championship core before either, so we're buying more time to either get that piece or to have one of our guys legitimately step up into that role.
I'll wait until that time passes to be convinced. If we've cap-locked our team for 5 years, I don't know how many chances we'll get to acquire that piece. Or how many other pieces might have departed in the meantime (Markov!). Could work, could fail, it's through a crystal ball darkly at the moment. I guess I just had higher hopes/expectations than being in that situation.

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07-02-2009, 04:10 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielson81 View Post
Wasn't trying to point to any certain agenda...

Actually also add in Higgins and keeping McDonough

To Me

Cammallerri, Kovalev, Koivu, Tanguay, Higgins and McDonaugh

is better than

Cammy, Gomez and Gionta

How can anyone argue that?
I can, Koivu can no longer keep up or did you not see him against Boston in the Playoffs. Kovalev? Do you guys remember how he played last season? How is he better than anyone of those guys? Higgins clearly took a Ryder step and regressed last season and it was expected he would be much better by all of us. Mcdonagh is a wild card at best, none of us know how he will pan out.

Last, as was stated by Cammalleri signing Gomez influenced his decision . So if no Gomez then maybe no Camm?


Last edited by habfan1968: 07-02-2009 at 04:17 PM. Reason: grammer
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