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Old
07-02-2009, 06:13 PM
  #76
DaHabMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
There's a lot of criticism levelled on Gomez, but let's be fair: Gomez's average season is very much like Koivu's best.



More skilled. Whether he's actually more effective is debatable. The production level is actually similar, and Gionta strikes me as more than a two-way player.

Gionta is the big question mark of the new first line I feel. He's being paid a lot if he's going to score 20 goals. If with Gomez he is a 30-goal guy, then it's an upgrade.



Also Cammy better on the PP and Tanguay better 5-on-5. But yes it's a pretty fair match. Cammy's a better fit with Gomez though.



Detroit isn't exactly known for Belligerence, Testosterone, or Truculence. Or the massive size of their mammoth forwards.




I'd be worried if it weren't for that other 80-point season in LA. To the best of my knowledge, LA did not have Iginla on their roster at that time...
the thing with that though is that detroit's small forwards are kinda of the elite variety and at least they have one big player in the top 6. Our top 3 right now are paid like elite but they're not of the elite variety. That's what makes this a very big risk imo especially at the price it cost us to assemble them.

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07-02-2009, 06:19 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post

How do you come to this conclusion?
When you invest such a heavy amount of money in players who aren't considered elite level talent...that screams desperation no?

We have 18.5m invested in 3 players who will all be over 32 by the time their deals are up...I also wouldn't consider any of these 3 the cornerstones of a dynasty. Would you?

These guys may have been 3 of the better players on the market...but that was more due to the relative weakness of the market and not the overall quality of the players we got. We are better off now, and worse off in the long run IMO. When it comes time to resign our key guys (Markov, Price, etc.) and let our young guys develop, we will still be paying these players top dollar. The cap isn't going up in the next few years, so this is basically the makeup of our roster for the next little while. Can this team win a Stanley Cup? Maybe...can you objectively consider us favorites? I'd say a resounding no to that one.

It goes back to what I said in my earlier post. I feel that this team is better now on paper than it was a year ago...but it is also an extremely expensive and one-dimensional roster that has as many question marks as it does positive attributes. But really...whether Gainey made the moves he did or just sat on his hands yesterday, we were a long way off from contending for the cup. We've drafted well, developed some nice players and have made some noise on occaision...but after a few unlucky breaks and some questionable roster management at the NHL level, the past has caught up with us and it was time to face the facts: we were not a cup contender with the nucleus that Gainey assembled under his tenure.

I still don't think we're a contender after the moves we've made either. All I know is that we're stuck with the decisions that Gainey has made for the next 5 years whether we like it or not. Personally I'm just apathetic to it all.


Last edited by Quagmier: 07-02-2009 at 06:25 PM.
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07-02-2009, 06:23 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmier View Post
When you invest such a heavy amount of money in players who aren't considered elite level talent...that screams desperation no?

We have 18.5m invested in 3 players who will all be over 32 by the time their deals are up...we're didn't exactly sign the cornerstones of a dynasty did we?

These guys may have been 3 of the better players on the market...but that was more due to the relative weakness of the market and not the overall quality of the players we got. We are better off now, and worse off in the long run IMO. When it comes time to resign our key guys (Markov, Price, etc.) and let our young guys develop, we will still be paying these players top dollar. The cap isn't going up in the next few years, so this is basically the makeup of our roster for the next little while. Can this team win a Stanley Cup? Maybe...can you objectively consider us favorites? I'd say a resounding no to that one.
So you're saying we should just wait and wait and wait until and elite level free agent becomes available and who is worthy of your money?

Yeah we should wait until Crosby, Malkin, Zetterberg, Ovyechkin become free agents. What was Gainey thinking???? Duh!

Price has the potential to be our franchise player. Markov is top 5 in the NHL for defense. You fill the rest of the pieces as best you can.

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07-02-2009, 06:29 PM
  #79
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We might have a better team when it's all said and done. But right now, I'm just sad to see players I enjoyed watching for years gone. Koivu, especially, deserved a better ending in Montréal. I know, it's a business, I know most people only care about winning, but still.

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07-02-2009, 06:32 PM
  #80
Quagmier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lou4gehrig View Post
So you're saying we should just wait and wait and wait until and elite level free agent becomes available and who is worthy of your money?

Yeah we should wait until Crosby, Malkin, Zetterberg, Ovyechkin become free agents. What was Gainey thinking???? Duh!

Price has the potential to be our franchise player. Markov is top 5 in the NHL for defense. You fill the rest of the pieces as best you can.
This is a classic example of selective reading: please re-read my post. I acknowledge that we had no other options and that Price and Markov both have the possibility to be top 5 players at their position (Markov is probably 5-7 right now) I also acknowledge that there is absolutely no chance of wrenching a guy like the ones you mentioned away from their teams...but the cold reality is that we lack one of those players, so why sugar coat it?

If Gainey thinks that he can build a championship roster around Markov, Price and a solid but unspectacular offensive core then so be it...I'm in no position to criticize a man with such an obviously hall of fame worthy pedigree. (Despite how many other people choose to)

Bottom line for me: when you spend 18.5m on 3 guys, you would at least hope that there is potential for elite production. Unless all 3 of the players we got can take their games to new levels (or if Cammalleri can finally perform when he isn't in a contract year) then we've essentially acquired mid level production at elite level cost.

Like you said: "You fill the rest of the pieces as best you can" well...we no longer have any money left for any major pieces, so lets hope we can get something out of this trio that we haven't seen in a while...

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Old
07-02-2009, 06:41 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmier View Post
...or if Cammalleri can finally perform when he isn't in a contract year...
What's that supposed to mean? Are you talking about his season in LA when he posted 80 points centered by the offensive juggernaut Derek Armstrong after signing a two year deal with the Kings?

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07-02-2009, 06:45 PM
  #82
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Are the Habs better than last year? Yes. They added a 27 year old player who scored 39 goals last year and who has had 80+ points in two of the last three seasons. They added a centre who is better than any centre they have had since Damphousse/young Koivu, and a two time Cup winner. They also added a player who had 60 points last year in a 2nd line role on a defensive team, someone who has strong chemistry with the centre they traded for and is also a Stanley Cup winner.

One thing people forget is how terrible this team was at moving the puck up the ice last year because other than Markov no one could make an outlet pass. They solved that by adding Spacek. Gill replaces some toughness lost, he also helps the PK a lot. Pretty good in a limited role and a major upgrade from Bouillon. He is also a Cup winner.

The team clearly has holes, but even Bob said he is not finished. Some good players were lost, but these were also inconsistent players. This new group will presumably try hard every night which is something we are not accustomed to as Habs fans.

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Old
07-02-2009, 06:48 PM
  #83
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The Final Asessment : Too Early To Tell

Guys,

Before we bless, curse or say anything, there are a couple of other major questions that need to be answered.


How do these guys fit into the SYSTEM that our new coach will employ. IF players buy in then this may just work out fine; if not, well we are pretty much back to where we started.

Nobody bought into Carbo's system last year, or even knew what is was?

Secondly what about chemistry, did you ever get the feeling that these players wanted to go to war FOR each other last year?

Frankly, I am still stuck on how it all went so wrong last year. From a team that was in first place in 2007-2008 and added Tanquay, Laraque and Lang to a team that literally fell apart at times last year.

Well I guess that is what the summer is for.


Last point: Bob is not stupid (even though I did start a Bob the Fool thread-- sorry I was a little angry at the time)., he knows we need size and I think he will address it before the season starts.

Players in play..... Pleky, SK74, Halak, a couple of prospects.


Need: Big 2nd line center... one more physical two way dman.

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Old
07-02-2009, 06:55 PM
  #84
Quagmier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoodKiwi View Post
What's that supposed to mean? Are you talking about his season in LA when he posted 80 points centered by the offensive juggernaut Derek Armstrong after signing a two year deal with the Kings?
That 2 year deal was for the 07-08 and 08-09 year.

He signed it after he put up his 80 point season.

Edit: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2965121

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Old
07-02-2009, 06:59 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielson81 View Post
Think about it....

Career PPG -

Cammy - .79
Gomez - .82
Gionta - .66

Koivu - .81
Tanguay - .88
Kovalev - .82

Also hard to believe that Gainey managed to actually make us smaller.
I don't know if the Habs are that much better, what I know though is that they have the potential to be better. It was worth taking a chance.

The key here is not comparing the players in terms of what they can do and bring on the table individually. We have to compare what they can bring as a whole to a team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielson81 View Post
Cammalleri, Kovalev, Tanguay and Koivu...personally I'd rather take the foursome over the threesome any day.

Combined Are Gomez and Gionta > Koivu, Kovy and Tangs?
Hockey is a team sport and without hesitation, I am going to say that Gomez and Gionta > Koivu, Kovy and Tanguay. Gomez and Gionta have better chemistry and form better teammates, there is no doubt about it. No one knows if Koivu and Kovalev really hated each other, but one thing is for sure, they were far from being friends.

To me, you can have all the talent in the world in a team, but if those players cannot stand each other, cannot co-exist and fight together as a team moving in the same direction, they have no value. It's all about having a strong team spirit and synergy.. if you don't have that, you are bound to lose.

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Old
07-02-2009, 07:03 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmier View Post
That 2 year deal was for the 07-08 and 08-09 year.

He signed it after he put up his 80 point season.

Edit: http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2965121
I stand corrected.

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Old
07-02-2009, 07:07 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Are the Habs better than last year? Yes. They added a 27 year old player who scored 39 goals last year and who has had 80+ points in two of the last three seasons. They added a centre who is better than any centre they have had since Damphousse/young Koivu, and a two time Cup winner. They also added a player who had 60 points last year in a 2nd line role on a defensive team, someone who has strong chemistry with the centre they traded for and is also a Stanley Cup winner.

One thing people forget is how terrible this team was at moving the puck up the ice last year because other than Markov no one could make an outlet pass. They solved that by adding Spacek. Gill replaces some toughness lost, he also helps the PK a lot. Pretty good in a limited role and a major upgrade from Bouillon. He is also a Cup winner.

The team clearly has holes, but even Bob said he is not finished. Some good players were lost, but these were also inconsistent players. This new group will presumably try hard every night which is something we are not accustomed to as Habs fans.
Good post...just wanted to add

In the last 3 years, Mike Cammalleri, Scott Gomez & Brian Gionta between them have recorded 7 70pts+ seasons, including 4 30G+ seasons and 4 80pts+ seasons.

In the last 10 years, of all the players who have played for the Habs, only 2 have had 30G+ seasons (Ryder & Kovalev) and only 2 have had 70pts+ seasons (Kovalev & Koivu).

In fact, take away Kovalev's awesoe 84pt season 2 years ago and the last Hab to record a PPG season was Pierre Turgeon in 95-96.

The Habs have just acquired 3 players with a RECENT history of success

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07-02-2009, 07:17 PM
  #88
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We're not much better on paper. Remember this:

Higs - Koivu - Tanguay
AK46 - Plek - Kovy
Lats - Lang - SK74
Kosto - Laps - Laraque

That was amazing on paper, but badly executed (and injuries galore).

This year:

Cammy - Gomez - Gionta
SK - Plek - AK
Lats - Laps - Patches/Dags
Stew - Metro - Laraque

is not soo much better, but we're hoping the chemistry is MUUCHH better this time. That's what's important.

However, it's hard to tell at the moment. We're still missing 1 top 6 forward.

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Old
07-02-2009, 07:19 PM
  #89
Ra
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You have to remember one thing (one thing)


Who is the coach!!

Look at what Martin did with Ottawa in his first three years... Look at the players he had.


Breaking news: The Montreal Canadiens will trap.

Do you see Kovalev trapping? Being happy trapping?

Did you see Koivu and his defensives play lately (yeah I know, there was none)

Tanguay after his bad season in Calgary: "I'm happy to leave a defensives system for an offensive one"


Will it work? Maybe yes, maybe no. Everyyyyone was surrrrree Kovalev and Samsonov would be the bomb together. ()
In other words, we never know how it will turn out, but at least we know Gomez and Gionta have had some good days together.


Carolina was too fast for Boston. Detroit finished last in fights and hits, Colorado and Tampa were first.

Give me a break!

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07-02-2009, 07:42 PM
  #90
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Don't know if it has been mentionned, but I'm really glad that we acquired 2 high shooters. I mean, Tanguay and Kovalev didn't shoot all that much, but Cammy and Gionta do. Even Gomez shoots a lot for a playmaker.

Last year:
Gionta : 248 shots (3,06 per game)
Cammalleri : 255 shots (3,15 per game)
Gomez : 277 shots (3,52)

Koivu : 123 shots (1,89 per game)
Kovalev : 209 shots (2,68 per game)
Tanguay : 76 shots (1,52 per game)
Lang : 101 shots (2 per game)
Higgins : 151 shots (2,65 per game)


Kovalev had way more icetime than Gionta did in NJ and did not shoot more (boy should he). Only Higgins took a lot of shots (for his Icetime), but he didn't have a big role. Also, the 3 new guys are all very scorers from in close. I really like the style of offense they could bring.

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07-02-2009, 07:47 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoteshot View Post
Don't know if it has been mentionned, but I'm really glad that we acquired 2 high shooters. I mean, Tanguay and Kovalev didn't shoot all that much, but Cammy and Gionta do. Even Gomez shoots a lot for a playmaker.

Last year:
Gionta : 248 shots (3,06 per game)
Cammalleri : 255 shots (3,15 per game)
Gomez : 277 shots (3,52)

Koivu : 123 shots (1,89 per game)
Kovalev : 209 shots (2,68 per game)
Tanguay : 76 shots (1,52 per game)
Lang : 101 shots (2 per game)
Higgins : 151 shots (2,65 per game)


Kovalev had way more icetime than Gionta did in NJ and did not shoot more (boy should he). Only Higgins took a lot of shots (for his Icetime), but he didn't have a big role. Also, the 3 new guys are all very scorers from in close. I really like the style of offense they could bring.
I brought this up the other day...and I agree, this is a team that is going to have a much more direct approach on offense, last years Habs team was obsessed with scoring the perfect goal.

This is something that's lost in all the whining right now, but it will surface during the hockey season

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Old
07-02-2009, 08:08 PM
  #92
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Speed and two way play kills. All three of the additions can fly. Like FLY. Holy jumping Jehovah the Habs will be fast next year(If we excuse ToddRod). The three new boys also play HARD. Tanguay and Kovy dont play hard. They arent the best at two way play. Saku is beaten up. This isnt for only this year but 2-3 years down the road. The Habs may lose but they will fly with the best of them. Last year we whined because Sister Danielle signed elsewhere. We added three daniels with sets and we should whine? Its also important to realize that the Habs young players( Lats, Kost 1 and 2, D'ago, Price, Maxpac, Laps, Obyrne, Gorges, Weber, Pleks) may all hit their peak within 2 years so that a 75 million dollar team is iced for 55 until the young players demand raises or move on. Its all about young players peaking with the 3 amigos leading them by example. There is a reason Gomez has rings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielson81 View Post
Think about it....

Career PPG -

Cammy - .79
Gomez - .82
Gionta - .66

Koivu - .81
Tanguay - .88
Kovalev - .82

Also hard to believe that Gainey managed to actually make us smaller.

For the money that was spent on the three new guys they could have had this....

Cammalleri, Kovalev, Tanguay and Koivu...personally I'd rather take the foursome over the threesome any day.

Combined Are Gomez and Gionta > Koivu, Kovy and Tangs?

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07-02-2009, 08:14 PM
  #93
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9 forwards that can fly aint too bad. Higgins koivu and Tang were either small or soft or slow and small.
Quote:
Originally Posted by la25ecoupe View Post
We're not much better on paper. Remember this:

Higs - Koivu - Tanguay
AK46 - Plek - Kovy
Lats - Lang - SK74
Kosto - Laps - Laraque

That was amazing on paper, but badly executed (and injuries galore).

This year:

Cammy - Gomez - Gionta
SK - Plek - AK
Lats - Laps - Patches/Dags
Stew - Metro - Laraque

is not soo much better, but we're hoping the chemistry is MUUCHH better this time. That's what's important.

However, it's hard to tell at the moment. We're still missing 1 top 6 forward.

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07-02-2009, 08:34 PM
  #94
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Gomez is 27 years old and can do something Koivu cant do anymore on a regular basis: play 18-21 minutes a game.

Gionta had his best success with Gomez, so i'll take that guess.

Cammalleri is 27 years old.
_______

Even strenght points last year.

Michael Cammalleri 48
Scott Gomez 40
Brian Gionta 45
Kovalev 31
Koivu 31
Tanguay 25

46 more even strengh pts last year for the 3 news guys vs the 3 we had.
And even by projecting Koivu and Tanguay numbers for 82 games. The new guys are still 22 pts over.

That, in a year where everyone one agree that Gomez and Gionta were average to "ok".

I'll take that.
As for the PP, loosing Kovalev here might hurt. But Markov, the habs PP QB remains.

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Old
07-02-2009, 08:39 PM
  #95
toshiro
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Ovechkin, Crosby and Malkin werent available. They never will be so freaking dream on. If the Habs develop a Crosby there will be money to pay him. These are gutsy players that have shown to be money players. The overwhelming amount of speed will dominate. When the young guns develop a third line that includes Cammeleri and Gionta wont be too bad dont you think? Depth galore with a superstar netminder. It sounds like Detroit except with a superstar netminder. We dont know how the young guns will develop. If Subban is the next Scott Neidermeyer and Price is the next Luongo I would say instant contender. The recession will be over in 2 years so relax bro. QUOTE=Quagmier;20254206]When you invest such a heavy amount of money in players who aren't considered elite level talent...that screams desperation no?

We have 18.5m invested in 3 players who will all be over 32 by the time their deals are up...I also wouldn't consider any of these 3 the cornerstones of a dynasty. Would you?

These guys may have been 3 of the better players on the market...but that was more due to the relative weakness of the market and not the overall quality of the players we got. We are better off now, and worse off in the long run IMO. When it comes time to resign our key guys (Markov, Price, etc.) and let our young guys develop, we will still be paying these players top dollar. The cap isn't going up in the next few years, so this is basically the makeup of our roster for the next little while. Can this team win a Stanley Cup? Maybe...can you objectively consider us favorites? I'd say a resounding no to that one.

It goes back to what I said in my earlier post. I feel that this team is better now on paper than it was a year ago...but it is also an extremely expensive and one-dimensional roster that has as many question marks as it does positive attributes. But really...whether Gainey made the moves he did or just sat on his hands yesterday, we were a long way off from contending for the cup. We've drafted well, developed some nice players and have made some noise on occaision...but after a few unlucky breaks and some questionable roster management at the NHL level, the past has caught up with us and it was time to face the facts: we were not a cup contender with the nucleus that Gainey assembled under his tenure.

I still don't think we're a contender after the moves we've made either. All I know is that we're stuck with the decisions that Gainey has made for the next 5 years whether we like it or not. Personally I'm just apathetic to it all.[/QUOTE]

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07-02-2009, 08:44 PM
  #96
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Hopefully Spacek and Weber can spice up the powerplay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anksun View Post
Gomez is 27 years old and can do something Koivu cant do anymore on a regular basis: play 18-21 minutes a game.

Gionta had his best success with Gomez, so i'll take that guess.

Cammalleri is 27 years old.
_______

Even strenght points last year.

Michael Cammalleri 48
Scott Gomez 40
Brian Gionta 45
Kovalev 31
Koivu 31
Tanguay 25

46 more even strengh pts last year for the 3 news guys vs the 3 we had.
And even by projecting Koivu and Tanguay numbers for 82 games. The new guys are still 22 pts over.

That, in a year where everyone one agree that Gomez and Gionta were average to "ok".

I'll take that.
As for the PP, loosing Kovalev here might hurt. But Markov, the habs PP QB remains.

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07-02-2009, 09:12 PM
  #97
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Koivu is a playmaking cener who I will say is a 15 goal scorer now. Same goes for Gomez, 15 goals. Tanguay is a playmaking winger and tag him at 25 goals. Kovalev was signed to score around 35, but hat was done just once, barely a 25 goal man. gionta had one great season when he hit 48 goals playing with Gomez, the rest of the tome its in the low 20's. Gainey must be counting on synergy here and a touch of that old magic, so I will say expectation of 30 goals. For Cammi the expectation must be 35-40 goals. The difference in output if the new line hits expectations is about 17 or so more goals, which probably translates to 6-8 more points, which can move you from battling for 8th spot into contesting for home ice. The problem is that we are paying about 5.5M more for the new guys than for what we could have signed the other guys for so you must ask whether we could have spent this extra money on a player or players who could have made up this extra 17 or so goals with less risk ie 90M over 5 years to 3 players. By the way, I know Koivu and Kovalev probably only have a couple of years left. Anyway, for Bob's play to even have a chance of being considered a good move I think you do need to see at least this extra 20 goals or so. If they do it we have a true first line, we'll have a tue clutch scorer in Cammi and it'll be fun to watch "The Smurf's of Terror" Somebody else posted that .

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07-02-2009, 09:12 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by toshiro View Post
Hopefully Spacek and Weber can spice up the powerplay.
Camalleri is a great PP producer. This level of ES production is unusual for him.

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07-02-2009, 09:18 PM
  #99
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
So what made McDonagh our best prospect?
By all accounts he was our best prospect.

Folks here have said that there's a possibility that he might not have been developing at the rate we wanted him too and that's why he was dealt. To that I say... fine. Deal him. But don't throw him away. He was at the very least a tradeable asset and we included him in a deal where we didn't have to. If NY had demanded him we should've told them to take a hike. I guarantee you though that they still would've done the deal without him included. There was NO reason to include him in that deal. And again if they demanded it... DON'T DO IT.

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07-02-2009, 09:24 PM
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Good post...just wanted to add

In the last 3 years, Mike Cammalleri, Scott Gomez & Brian Gionta between them have recorded 7 70pts+ seasons, including 4 30G+ seasons and 4 80pts+ seasons.

In the last 10 years, of all the players who have played for the Habs, only 2 have had 30G+ seasons (Ryder & Kovalev) and only 2 have had 70pts+ seasons (Kovalev & Koivu).

In fact, take away Kovalev's awesoe 84pt season 2 years ago and the last Hab to record a PPG season was Pierre Turgeon in 95-96.

The Habs have just acquired 3 players with a RECENT history of success
Not really. Gomez has been awful the past couple of years and Gionta hasn't been nearly as good as he was earlier on. Hopefully they can click again but who knows? There's no way that they are worth the difference in cash that we've spent on them vs. the guys who are leaving. And we lost Komisarek to boot. I'd rather have him than Gill and Spacek together.

We're sideways at best. I just really hope that the young guys who are left improve. We'll need Lats and Maxpac to improve big time because they're the only forwards on this team with size and any kind of inclination to use it. And I do really Cammy though so that's a plus at least. Still 30 million is a lot of cash.

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