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Hudler contract talk; UPD: Agent won't negotiate a deal, Wings will look for UFA

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Old
07-04-2009, 01:14 PM
  #76
GT500x
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Let's face it, the Wings are swimming up stream. If Hudler wants to go for the bucks, then we need to shed his weight and take our chances without him. I'd rather have the cap space then overpay him.

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07-04-2009, 01:18 PM
  #77
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I guess the question remains: Is Hudler as valuable as Filppula? Should he get the same kind of contract? Keep in mind, while they both bring different skillsets to the team, they are complimentary...

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07-04-2009, 01:45 PM
  #78
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I guess the question remains: Is Hudler as valuable as Filppula? Should he get the same kind of contract? Keep in mind, while they both bring different skillsets to the team, they are complimentary...
I don't think that's really the question, Menace. Fil is already under contract, with his rate set last year and a different set of circumstances. I think the real question is how much are Hudler's 23 G/57 pts worth to the Wings given who their other scorers are right now.

Holland is potentially strapped so badly he's considering starting Abdelkader a year before he wanted. He has to look at this as Hudler + random UFA > Hudler + Abdelkader > random UFA + Abdelkader. I think I listed his order of preference..... now he has to insert the dollar figures next to each set and decide which he can do with money left.

 
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07-04-2009, 09:32 PM
  #79
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I guess the question remains: Is Hudler as valuable as Filppula? Should he get the same kind of contract? Keep in mind, while they both bring different skillsets to the team, they are complimentary...

Filppula is a much more complete player then Hudler is . . . by far. Filppula's value The only thing that Hudler has over Filppula (for now) is that he's not afraid to shoot.

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07-05-2009, 02:29 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I don't think that's really the question, Menace. Fil is already under contract, with his rate set last year and a different set of circumstances. I think the real question is how much are Hudler's 23 G/57 pts worth to the Wings given who their other scorers are right now.
Honestly, how is this not like the Filppula situation last year (or two years, or whatever you want to call it)? Both at RFA status, both valuable to the team, but to what degree seems to be unclear, etc... it's like déjà vu.

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Holland is potentially strapped so badly he's considering starting Abdelkader a year before he wanted. He has to look at this as Hudler + random UFA > Hudler + Abdelkader > random UFA + Abdelkader. I think I listed his order of preference..... now he has to insert the dollar figures next to each set and decide which he can do with money left.
Does it really seem like starting Abdelkadabra a year (or so) early is a horribly bad thing? Doesn't to me -- but what do I know...

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Originally Posted by Deek
Filppula is a much more complete player then Hudler is . . . by far. Filppula's value The only thing that Hudler has over Filppula (for now) is that he's not afraid to shoot.
If by "complete" you mean "is bigger, a better skater, and a better faceoff man," then sure. Hudler can't help his size, he has gotten better speed-wise, and he's never really been played at center in the NHL. I don't care what you people seem to think you see when he's on the ice, but he is NOT a defensive liability. He's not lazy, he doesn't coast, and he doesn't turn the puck over any more than anyone else on the team... what more do you want?

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07-05-2009, 05:07 PM
  #81
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At 1.5 mil or less = good deal.
At 1.5-2.0 = acceptible to slightly bad deal.
At 2.0+ = a bad to outright terrible deal.

A lot of that depends on term. On a 1 year deal, I wouldn't be too bummed about ~2 mil. On any kind of deal longer than one year, anything above a 2 mil yearly cap hit is pretty bad.

It's just too much for a guy who can't get past Mikael Samuelsson to get off the fourth line. For one year while the team struggles to fill out the roster (so far)? Fine, whatever. On a multi-year deal? I'd be a little sick.

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07-05-2009, 06:54 PM
  #82
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At 1.5 mil or less = good deal.
At 1.5-2.0 = acceptible to slightly bad deal.
At 2.0+ = a bad to outright terrible deal.

A lot of that depends on term. On a 1 year deal, I wouldn't be too bummed about ~2 mil. On any kind of deal longer than one year, anything above a 2 mil yearly cap hit is pretty bad.

It's just too much for a guy who can't get past Mikael Samuelsson to get off the fourth line. For one year while the team struggles to fill out the roster (so far)? Fine, whatever. On a multi-year deal? I'd be a little sick.
I take it you're not happy when you read that Holland states they think his value is $2.5 MM?

 
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07-05-2009, 07:36 PM
  #83
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I take it you're not happy when you read that Holland states they think his value is $2.5 MM?
When did he say that?

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07-05-2009, 07:53 PM
  #84
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I dunno at this stage of the game im hopping for a 2.5M deal over 5-7 years. If we have to pay the kid full value we might as well stretch it over years like Kronwall or filpulla's. At that point we just hope for the best or wait for inflation to knock his cap hit down.

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07-05-2009, 08:04 PM
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It's official. Hudler filed for arbitration, 20 NHL'ers in total.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=283832

 
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07-05-2009, 08:10 PM
  #86
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It's official. Hudler filed for arbitration, 20 NHL'ers in total.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=283832
I don't see Hudler getting much more than 3.5 in arbitration, but even then he's gone.

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07-05-2009, 08:16 PM
  #87
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When did he say that?
One of these post-mortems on Hossa, he said they were willing to go to $2.5 MM; Hudler's side wanted 'a bit more.'

 
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07-05-2009, 08:24 PM
  #88
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One of these post-mortems on Hossa, he said they were willing to go to $2.5 MM; Hudler's side wanted 'a bit more.'
really? hmm...greedy midget. i hope he will be traded to florida or so. he can line up with shawn mathias.

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07-05-2009, 08:33 PM
  #89
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I don't see Hudler getting much more than 3.5 in arbitration, but even then he's gone.
Cammalari (sp) only got 3.5M x2 after his 80 Point season. Hudler is good but not quit their yet.

2.7 imo is a reach for him. He will probably get less than that though.

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07-05-2009, 08:38 PM
  #90
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One of these post-mortems on Hossa, he said they were willing to go to $2.5 MM; Hudler's side wanted 'a bit more.'
If that's what happened, he's making a pretty decent-sized mistake.

Alternatively, I think Holland may be floating a number out there targeted at people looking to extend Hudler an offer sheet.

Still... that's way too much for Hudler. 2.5? Craziness. It's too much for Samuelsson, and he was a much better fit in Detroit than Hudler likely will ever be.

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07-05-2009, 08:41 PM
  #91
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I wouldn't give him a cent over 2.5mil. I think he needs to recognize the talent he had around him. If he goes anywhere else for more money I hope he's ready for the pressure that's going to come along with it.

I got no hard feeling against happy-hudler, but if he feels its time for him to cash in, then so be it. The Wings are going to have to ride their AHL team till the wheels fall off this year.

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07-05-2009, 10:00 PM
  #92
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Are you guys saying Hudler isn't worth $2.5 million on the Wings or that Hudler isn't worth $2.5 million in general?

I personally have a hard time believing that Hudler isn't worth $2.5 million on the market.

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07-05-2009, 10:17 PM
  #93
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We'd get bigger that's for sure if we have no Hudler next year.

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07-05-2009, 10:54 PM
  #94
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2.5 million for Hudler is a great deal and I think 3.0 is fair value, I think he is being vastly underrated here.

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07-05-2009, 10:59 PM
  #95
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Perhaps I just lack the mental capacity, but how can anyone say $2.5M / year for Hudler is overpayment?

Also, Samuelsson a better fit on the Wings? That's absolute insanity... he plays a north/south game, and the Wings are very east/west -- which Hudler fits more than Samuelsson ever would.

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07-05-2009, 11:02 PM
  #96
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After coming to my senses the Cammalleri comparison for Hudler's salary isn't going to come to fruition.

Besides bringing up stats when GM's make their case are there certain things they can bring up? Or can they say pretty much anything to make their case?

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07-05-2009, 11:45 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by r0bert8841 View Post
2.5 million for Hudler is a great deal and I think 3.0 is fair value, I think he is being vastly underrated here.
My favorite knock against Hudler is that hes "never going to be a top forward". How many points do Wings fans think most "top 6" players put up? I can guarantee there isn't a team in the league that has 6 forwards who all put up 57+ points.

Hudler is a 3rd line forward that scores at the pace of a 2nd liner. That, in it of itself, is an asset. When you give a guy 13 minutes a game and hes producing as though hes getting 17, thats a bonus. I dont care if hes a PP specialist or not, players that make productive use of their ice time are never to be discounted.

2.5M is just what the doctor ordered for Hudler. On the open market, his value is definitely 3M. If he really isn't willing to accept 2.5, however, I think the Wings consider trading him.

PS. If Hudler were an even 6'0, nobody would be questioning his value.

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07-05-2009, 11:47 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by RedMenace View Post
Perhaps I just lack the mental capacity, but how can anyone say $2.5M / year for Hudler is overpayment?

Also, Samuelsson a better fit on the Wings? That's absolute insanity... he plays a north/south game, and the Wings are very east/west -- which Hudler fits more than Samuelsson ever would.
I don't think you're the one lacking the mental capacity...

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07-05-2009, 11:51 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
At 1.5 mil or less = good deal.
At 1.5-2.0 = acceptible to slightly bad deal.
At 2.0+ = a bad to outright terrible deal.

A lot of that depends on term. On a 1 year deal, I wouldn't be too bummed about ~2 mil. On any kind of deal longer than one year, anything above a 2 mil yearly cap hit is pretty bad.

It's just too much for a guy who can't get past Mikael Samuelsson to get off the fourth line. For one year while the team struggles to fill out the roster (so far)? Fine, whatever. On a multi-year deal? I'd be a little sick.
At 1.5 mil or less = Tomas Kopecky, Colton Orr, Donald Brashear, Vern Fiddler
At 1.5-2.0 = Chris Neil, Chad Larose, Dvorak, Jokinen
At 2.0+ = Sammy Pahlsson, Mike Knuble, Mikael Samuelsson

So lets re-phrase that:

At 1.5 mil or less = Out of this world underpayment
At 1.5-2.0 = Steal of a deal
At 2.0+ = Sensible deal

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07-05-2009, 11:57 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
After coming to my senses the Cammalleri comparison for Hudler's salary isn't going to come to fruition.

Besides bringing up stats when GM's make their case are there certain things they can bring up? Or can they say pretty much anything to make their case?
The parties may offer evidence of the following:

(A) the overall performance, including official statistics prepared by the League (both offensive and defensive) of the Player in the previous season or seasons;

(B) the number of games played by the Player, his injuries or illnesses during the preceding seasons;

(C) the length of service of the Player in the League and/or with the Club;

(D) the overall contribution of the Player to the competitive success or failure of his Club in the preceding season;

(E) any special qualities of leadership or public appeal not inconsistent with the fulfillment of his responsibilities as a playing member of his team;

(F) the overall performance in the previous season or seasons of any player(s) who is alleged to be comparable to the party Player whose salary is in dispute; and

(G) (1) The Compensation of any player(s) who is alleged to be comparable to the party Player, provided, however, that in applying this or any of the above subparagraphs, the Arbitrator shall not consider a player(s) to be comparable to the party Player unless a party to the arbitration has contended that the player(s) is comparable; nor shall the Arbitrator consider the Compensation or performance of a player(s) unless a party to the arbitration has contended that the player(s) is comparable.

(2) To the extent a non-cash economic item does not have an attributed value set forth in the player's contract or any addenda thereto, the parties shall attribute a value thereto by mutual agreement or, failing to reach such agreement, then such value shall be determined by the Impartial Arbitrator.

The following categories of evidence are inadmissible and shall not be considered by the Arbitrator:

(1) Any contract the term of which began when the player party to such contract was not a Group II Player;

(2) Any contract entered into by an Unrestricted Free Agent, including contracts signed by players after the player's Club has exercised a walk-away right pursuant to Section 12.6;

(3) Qualifying Offers made by the Club pursuant to Section 10.2;

(4) Any prior offers or history of negotiations between the Player and the Club;

(5) Testimonials, videotapes,newspaper columns, press game reports or similar materials;

(6) Any reference to actual or potential walk-away rights;

(7) Any award issued by an arbitrator as to which a Club exercised its walk-away rights pursuant to Section 12.6;

(8) The financial condition of the Club or the League.


http://www.nhlfa.com/CBA/cba_agreement12.asp

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