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Cory Schneider

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Old
07-06-2009, 06:45 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Jwm1986 View Post
If he chooses to sign with Toronto, hes not f***ing Dallad over.... he never made any commitment to you guys
I understand his mother died and i really feel for him. However the NHL is a business and when you take this long to decide on which team you will play for while all other quality backups or possible goaltenders that will replace Turco if he sucks again are taken because you are waiting on a specific person is crazy. If he would of picked Toronto days ago we would of been in on Clemmensen or Anderson. Now if Gustavsson chooses Toronto we will be forced to make a trade most likely to acquire a quality backup.

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07-06-2009, 06:46 PM
  #52
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At this point, all they'd get in exchange for Schnieder would be another good but unproven prospect. If they want anything more than that, they need to have him show his stuff in the NHL more than they have.

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07-06-2009, 06:48 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Look, it's real simple, those of you believing a hot AHL goalie has meaningful trade value, all you have to do is point to a trade where a young AHL-only goaltender brought significant assets in a real life trade.

If you can't, your value conception is simply not grounded in reality.

Cheers.
Great, young goalies rarely get traded, teams usually groom them to take over the starting goaltender spot on their roster. The Canucks find themselves in a very unique position where they also have a franchise goalie that they are trying to re-sign long term. I can't think of any teams that have been in the same situation in recent memory.

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07-06-2009, 06:49 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Knee Seeking Scud View Post
I understand his mother died and i really feel for him. However the NHL is a business and when you take this long to decide on which team you will play for while all other quality backups or possible goaltenders that will replace Turco if he sucks again are taken because you are waiting on a specific person is crazy. If he would of picked Toronto days ago we would of been in on Clemmensen or Anderson. Now if Gustavsson chooses Toronto we will be forced to make a trade most likely to acquire a quality backup.
That's not Gustavsson's fault or responsibility.

If Dallas feels that he's taking too long to make a decision, then move on... sign someone else. Gustavsson doesn't owe Dallas a thing! If any team thinks it's unfair to wait for him, there's nothing that is forcing them from moving on. If they think he's worth waiting for, and risking losing him and any decent options, that's the team's risk to take.

It's not like he's signed by Dallas and hasn't made a decision if he's going to come over... he has no commitment at all to Dallas, and if they don't feel it's worth waiting, move on!

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07-06-2009, 06:51 PM
  #55
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B.C. boy Jamie Benn is who I'd want from Dallas for Cory Schneider. 2 excellent prospects that have proved nothing at the NHL level.

From Toronto, Anton Stralman and a pick.

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07-06-2009, 06:53 PM
  #56
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Prospects who have barely played in the NHL are always worth more to their team than they are to other teams, unless were talking prospects who are ready to immediately step in, in which case they're no longer true prospects. No team is ever desperate for prospects that aren't NHL proven, so no one is going to pay full value or overpay for said players services.


Oh, and posting great numbers in the AHL is a lot harder when you're facing Ovechkins, Iginlas, Datsyuks, and Malkins instead of Haydars, Krogs, and Lockes.

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07-06-2009, 06:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
but yet you want a lot in a trade for AHL player and somehow, it makes sense to you.
Filatov plays in the AHL, therefore he has no trade value

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07-06-2009, 07:00 PM
  #58
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what i think the canucks want for him is to put him in a package deal that can get us a top paring puck moving defenceman

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07-06-2009, 07:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Great, young goalies rarely get traded, teams usually groom them to take over the starting goaltender spot on their roster. The Canucks find themselves in a very unique position where they also have a franchise goalie that they are trying to re-sign long term. I can't think of any teams that have been in the same situation in recent memory.
San Jose, Anaheim, Montreal, Columbus off the top of my head

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07-06-2009, 07:15 PM
  #60
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In all likelyhood... Luongo will be resigned so the plan would be for the Canucks to try and utilize Schneider to improve their team. I think 'Nucks fans will be very dissappointed in the return they get based on how valuable they think Schneider is.

The reality of the situation with goaltenders is that until you prove that you're a #1 in the NHL -- you aren't a #1 in the NHL and problably never will be. There are just so many goalies who succeed in junior or in the AHL, but then completely flop in the NHL. Teams are aware of this and thats why the smart ones will always be looking for new additions even if they have a guy labelled as "the future". Its also why you rarely see goalies go in the first round anymore.

Every team really should have one goalie labelled as "the future" somehwere in their system because the using hte AHL to develop a goalie can make your current one potentially expendable which brings huge value to the team. Schneider will attract interest from teams that are either looking for a backup or don't have their own version of the future playing in the AHl. Of course, you do consider that he's considered one of the best goaltending prospects around; so his value is slightly higher than most. Call it around a 2nd round pick from one of those teams. Alternatively, Vancouver might expect a spare roster player in return.

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07-06-2009, 07:50 PM
  #61
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The reality of the situation with goaltenders is that until you prove that you're a #1 in the NHL -- you aren't a #1 in the NHL and problably never will be.
The reality of the situation is that if you are an NHL team you actually scout players rather than using broad generalizations about what a player can/will do.

Example, Mike Smith. He had good, but not great numbers in Dallas as a backup. He was the main piece in the Brad Richards trade because TB thought he was a good goalie. Because they scouted him. Not every team will rank players the same way. Some will think more highly of Schneider than others.


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Its also why you rarely see goalies go in the first round anymore.
You don't see goalies go in the first round because they are unknowns. Most goalies don't start playing in higher leagues until after their draft year since there are only 2 goalies per team, and, believe it or not, using a young goalie who is an unknown can be a big detriment to your team if he falters. I.e. this is why Steve Mason was a 3rd round pick. Also, this would only add to Schneider's value, because he is much closer to being a number 1 goalie. Since young goalies are so unpredictable, there should only be more value in a goalie who is more known quantity.

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Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Every team really should have one goalie labelled as "the future" somehwere in their system because the using hte AHL to develop a goalie can make your current one potentially expendable which brings huge value to the team. Schneider will attract interest from teams that are either looking for a backup or don't have their own version of the future playing in the AHl. Of course, you do consider that he's considered one of the best goaltending prospects around; so his value is slightly higher than most. Call it around a 2nd round pick from one of those teams. Alternatively, Vancouver might expect a spare roster player in return.
Just because teams "really should" do something, in your opinion, it does not mean that they do. A lot of teams do not have a clear cut #1 goalie prospect. A lot of teams do not have a clear cut #1 goalie. These are teams that would be interested in Schneider. And if they have some depth somewhere else in their system, they will trade that depth for Schneider.

Schneider will definitely garner more than a 2nd round pick and spare parts in return. There is no reason for the Canucks to trade him for that. They are looking to trade him, but if they can't get something of comparable value (yes, less than what he is really worth, but something equal to a mid 1st rounder), then he won't be moved.

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07-06-2009, 07:54 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Look, it's real simple, those of you believing a hot AHL goalie has meaningful trade value, all you have to do is point to a trade where a young AHL-only goaltender brought significant assets in a real life trade.

If you can't, your value conception is simply not grounded in reality.

Cheers.
Mike Smith's NHL play could not have made him that much more valuable than Schneider is now. IMO, a 23 year old Schneider is much more valuable than a 26 year old Mike Smith, who was the main piece in the Brad Richards deal..

Now, Richards was traded because of his large cap hit, but I find it hard to believe that Schneider is not worth a young top-6 forward prospect (not a blue chip prospect, but a mid-late first round pick. I would say his value is quite a bit higher than Michael Grabner, and I would expect someone slightly better than Grabner in return for him in a 1 for 1 trade.. I.e. someone comparable to Michael Frolik before his emergence this year.)

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07-06-2009, 08:11 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ugghhh View Post
The reality of the situation is that if you are an NHL team you actually scout players rather than using broad generalizations about what a player can/will do.

Example, Mike Smith. He had good, but not great numbers in Dallas as a backup. He was the main piece in the Brad Richards trade because TB thought he was a good goalie. Because they scouted him. Not every team will rank players the same way. Some will think more highly of Schneider than others.




You don't see goalies go in the first round because they are unknowns. Most goalies don't start playing in higher leagues until after their draft year since there are only 2 goalies per team, and, believe it or not, using a young goalie who is an unknown can be a big detriment to your team if he falters. I.e. this is why Steve Mason was a 3rd round pick. Also, this would only add to Schneider's value, because he is much closer to being a number 1 goalie. Since young goalies are so unpredictable, there should only be more value in a goalie who is more known quantity.



Just because teams "really should" do something, in your opinion, it does not mean that they do. A lot of teams do not have a clear cut #1 goalie prospect. A lot of teams do not have a clear cut #1 goalie. These are teams that would be interested in Schneider. And if they have some depth somewhere else in their system, they will trade that depth for Schneider.

Schneider will definitely garner more than a 2nd round pick and spare parts in return. There is no reason for the Canucks to trade him for that. They are looking to trade him, but if they can't get something of comparable value (yes, less than what he is really worth, but something equal to a mid 1st rounder), then he won't be moved.
Of course you scout players... but even scouts can't accurately predict goaltenders. Take a guy like Steve Mason as the best example. Mike Smith had much better numbers and was playign much more consistently than Schneider was (50 games with much better numbers over 2 nhl years).... meanwhile Richards was essentially a salary dump for the Bolts and Dallas was one of the few teams with any help in goal that could afford him.... and look at how that deal turned out. Teams learn from the mistakes of others.

Schneider will be targetted by many teams.... there's no question about that. But with any non-proven NHL goaltender, the demand drops quickly once you start talking about important pieces simply because with goaltending, your guarantee of that player turning out is much less than any other position. For a team that needs a goaltending prospect, it doesn't make sense to give up more than something like a 2nd round pick for a goalie like Schneider when you can give up a 3rd round pick and draft one or trade one. When I say spare parts, we're not talking about a salary dump, we're talking about a player who is expendable but still worth his money.

Don't believe me on his value. Look at any prospect goaltender traded since the lockout.

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07-06-2009, 08:38 PM
  #64
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[QUOTE=jfried;20316704]Of course you scout players... but even scouts can't accurately predict goaltenders. Take a guy like Steve Mason as the best example.[\QUOTE]

Just because you can't accurately predict goaltenders it doesn't mean that you won't try to. This is the same reason teams do take chances on players like Chet Pickard, Markstrom, etc. with 1st round picks.

[QUOTE]Mike Smith had much better numbers and was playign much more consistently than Schneider was (50 games with much better numbers over 2 nhl years).... [\QUOTE]

Not consistently, he played back-up to Turco on a very good Dallas team. Your point was teams don't trade for goalies who aren't proven starters. Smith and Toskala are two examples of such.

[QUOTE] meanwhile Richards was essentially a salary dump for the Bolts and Dallas was one of the few teams with any help in goal that could afford him.... and look at how that deal turned out. Teams learn from the mistakes of others.[\QUOTE]

I would argue that Tampa is very happy with how Smith has turned out. He played great last year, although he did have some injury troubles. What basis do you have to say that the trade turned out badly for Tampa Bay?

Quote:
Schneider will be targetted by many teams.... there's no question about that. But with any non-proven NHL goaltender, the demand drops quickly once you start talking about important pieces simply because with goaltending, your guarantee of that player turning out is much less than any other position. For a team that needs a goaltending prospect, it doesn't make sense to give up more than something like a 2nd round pick for a goalie like Schneider when you can give up a 3rd round pick and draft one or trade one. When I say spare parts, we're not talking about a salary dump, we're talking about a player who is expendable but still worth his money.

Don't believe me on his value. Look at any prospect goaltender traded since the lockout.
The only goalie prospect traded since the lockout on Schneider's level was Tuuka Rask. I think everyone will agree that the Leafs didn't get fair value for him. Rask was also less experienced than Schneider at that point in time.

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07-06-2009, 09:08 PM
  #65
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Great, young goalies rarely get traded, teams usually groom them to take over the starting goaltender spot on their roster. The Canucks find themselves in a very unique position where they also have a franchise goalie that they are trying to re-sign long term. I can't think of any teams that have been in the same situation in recent memory.
NYR with Henrick and Montoya. Montoya still trying to make NHL both were drafted in 2004.

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07-06-2009, 09:13 PM
  #66
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Just because you can't accurately predict goaltenders it doesn't mean that you won't try to. This is the same reason teams do take chances on players like Chet Pickard, Markstrom, etc. with 1st round picks.

Not consistently, he played back-up to Turco on a very good Dallas team. Your point was teams don't trade for goalies who aren't proven starters. Smith and Toskala are two examples of such.

I would argue that Tampa is very happy with how Smith has turned out. He played great last year, although he did have some injury troubles. What basis do you have to say that the trade turned out badly for Tampa Bay?

The only goalie prospect traded since the lockout on Schneider's level was Tuuka Rask. I think everyone will agree that the Leafs didn't get fair value for him. Rask was also less experienced than Schneider at that point in time.
Of course you try to, but no team can afford to make big investments in scouts predictions on goaltenders, they just cannot be very reliable.

He played backup to Turco, but averaged 25 games a year while putting up very good numbers. Vancouver is a solid defensive team, and Schneider doens't have anywhere near that much evidence at the NHL level, meanwhile the evidence isn't exactly in his favour. Toskala & Smith both succeeded in the NHL as high-game backups.... those are the types of goalies who get big returns, not AHL starters. Going from backup success to starter success is difficult (as we've seen with both Toskala & Smith); going from AHL to NHL is a much bigger jump and so far the evidence shows that Schneider can't do it with success.

The only reason that was a good trade is because they had no other option. They traded a #1 centre for a mediocre goalie and shootout specialist... thats a bad trade.

You look at the value for Rask; and in hindsight many would consider that was a bad trade because Raycroft failed. But, if Raycroft had even turned out to be a solid 1A goalie; the Leafs would be laughing. Meanwhile, I'd point out that Rask STILL hasn't even become a backup in the NHL.

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07-06-2009, 09:15 PM
  #67
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NYR with Henrick and Montoya. Montoya still trying to make NHL both were drafted in 2004.
Was Montoya a "great, young goalie" at the time he was dealt? I don't know about that, he was pretty average at the AHL level.

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07-06-2009, 09:19 PM
  #68
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Was Montoya a "great, young goalie" at the time he was dealt? I don't know about that, he was pretty average at the AHL level.
He was great Cuban hope, had a very good 1st season in the AHL, very average 2nd year and then Henrick was resigned and Montoya was traded.

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07-06-2009, 09:29 PM
  #69
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Well if Schneider ends up going to a team for something as low as a second rounder.. I guarantee you people will look at that deal down the road and wonder how he went for that little.

There's something that separates Cory from the other AHL standouts (The LaBarberas, the Raycrofts).. it's just hard to put my finger on it. He just has the poise of an elite goaltender. The talent is there. All of the pieces are there.

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07-06-2009, 09:32 PM
  #70
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In regards to the OP's question, what defensemen on Dallas could be available? My guess is that Gillis will try to move Schneider in a deal for a puck moving defenseman.

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07-06-2009, 09:37 PM
  #71
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Well if Schneider ends up going to a team for something as low as a second rounder.. I guarantee you people will look at that deal down the road and wonder how he went for that little.

There's something that separates Cory from the other AHL standouts (The LaBarberas, the Raycrofts).. it's just hard to put my finger on it. He just has the poise of an elite goaltender. The talent is there. All of the pieces are there.
The only thing that separates him is that he belongs to the Vancouver Canucks instead of the Nashville Predators.

BTW, Raycroft was an NHL standout, we saw how that went.

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07-06-2009, 09:40 PM
  #72
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The only thing that separates him is that he belongs to the Vancouver Canucks instead of the Nashville Predators.

BTW, Raycroft was an NHL standout, we saw how that went.
So, if you were the Vancouver Canucks, would you deal him for a 2nd round pick?

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07-06-2009, 09:45 PM
  #73
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So, if you were the Vancouver Canucks, would you deal him for a 2nd round pick?
Problably not, Raycroft is far from a guarantee to be a good backup and he might be a decent insurance policy. I want to win now so i'm not looking to acquire future picks. If Raycroft plays well, move him at the 2010 draft.

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07-06-2009, 09:54 PM
  #74
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He will more likely than not get some serious playing time in the pre-season to showcase himself. They will probably give him some playing time throughout the year, more so if Loungo gets injured. There is no rush, and I hardly think he is worth just a 2nd or 3rd. Take your top-prospect (or 2nd best w.e), and tell me you would trade him for 3rd rounder.

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07-06-2009, 11:02 PM
  #75
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Let's not forget that it only takes one GM out there to make a reasonable offer. There are teams out there that need a young goalie like Schneider and might just be interested.

Here are a few:

San Jose, Dallas, Edmonton, Colorado, Philly, Toronto, St. Louis

There are also a few teams that might be interested in Schneider:

Phoenix, Anaheim, New Jersey, New York Islanders, Chicago.

All Gillis needs is one of those 12 teams to be interested enough to give him what he feels fair value for Schneider.

I don't think there's a chance in hell that Schneider moves for another other then a fair value offer. There's no way a team will get him for a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Gillis might as well keep him in the system and take his chances at the trade deadline.

It'll be real interesting to see what happens but it wouldn't suprise me at all to see something happen as soon as the Monster decides where he wants to sign.

Schneider might just be the best young goaltender available after the Monster signs.

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