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Toronto's defense

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Old
07-06-2009, 05:34 PM
  #26
seanlinden
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Toronto's blueline right now is definitely the deepest in the league.... i dont think any other team can boast 7 "top 4 guys" (Kaberle, Komisarek, Schenn, Van Ryn, Finger, White, Beauchemin) and 3 pretty good bottom pair guys (Frogren, Exelby, Stralman).

In terms of whose to keep and who goes, I think you've gotta look at the potential pairings from a top-down perspective. The best pair you can take out of that group is problably Kaberle-Komisarek. The 2nd best pair you can take out is Schenn-Beauchemin. The 3rd best pair is definitely Van Ryn-Finger. Although the cap isn't really a concern, it should be in future years, which is why I can see both Van Ryn & Finger being moved as they both have $3million cap hits.

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07-06-2009, 05:56 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfried View Post
Toronto's blueline right now is definitely the deepest in the league.... i dont think any other team can boast 7 "top 4 guys" (Kaberle, Komisarek, Schenn, Van Ryn, Finger, White, Beauchemin) and 3 pretty good bottom pair guys (Frogren, Exelby, Stralman).

In terms of whose to keep and who goes, I think you've gotta look at the potential pairings from a top-down perspective. The best pair you can take out of that group is problably Kaberle-Komisarek. The 2nd best pair you can take out is Schenn-Beauchemin. The 3rd best pair is definitely Van Ryn-Finger. Although the cap isn't really a concern, it should be in future years, which is why I can see both Van Ryn & Finger being moved as they both have $3million cap hits.
Before anyone jumps on this, it should be pointed out that "deepest" != "best'. Just wanted to make that clear.

Our top 3 isn't very close to Calgary, Chicago, Detroit, Philly... and probably Boston.

Edit: Maybe SJ as well....

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07-06-2009, 07:04 PM
  #28
Viqsi
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Van Ryn could likely find himself a job with the Blue Jackets (offensive D, right shot, not a horrible defensive liability, one year only means no contribution to future cap hell), although Howson has said he's happy with the current D.

Frankly, I'd send a depth forward - Modin comes to mind. Maybe a pick or someone else, but I dunno.

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07-06-2009, 07:13 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Van Ryn could likely find himself a job with the Blue Jackets (offensive D, right shot, not a horrible defensive liability, one year only means no contribution to future cap hell), although Howson has said he's happy with the current D.

Frankly, I'd send a depth forward - Modin comes to mind. Maybe a pick or someone else, but I dunno.
I'd rather move Chimera. Modin has had injury issues, but I'd rather roll the dice with his game than with Chimera learning to put it on net and not around the boards.

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Old
07-06-2009, 07:32 PM
  #30
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MVR was surprisingly good at everything while he was healthy.

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Old
07-06-2009, 07:57 PM
  #31
Jack Bourdain
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Kaberle - Komisarek
Schenn - Beauchemin

Can't go wrong with that, that's a d-core to keep for years. Congrats Leafs, I rag on Burke whenever he says/does something stupid, so I will give props when he does something smart (brilliant in this case).

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Old
07-06-2009, 08:31 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Kencaid View Post
News report just in.........JEFF FINGER SUCKS

LOL, had to do it,

The leafs log jam at D is mostly bottom pairing d-men and second pairing guys. I hope Kaberle is traded for either young assets/picks, or kessel
BEAUCHEMIN and Finger have very similar numbers and skillsets

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07-06-2009, 08:35 PM
  #33
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Interesting question.... he's definitely got quite a bit of value because of his salary, and the fact that after this year he problably won't be in a position to demand too much because he's pretty low on the depth chart.

From the B's, the easy answer would be something like their 1st round pick (with the Leafs sending their 3rd)... but it definitely has the potential to be a lot more complicated. With the cap issues, the Leafs would problably go for one of Bergeron, Ryder or Wheeler with extra assets depending on which player.
Cut out the last paragraph because there's no way White is the centerpiece coming back for Kessel.

Ryder is the only one I see possible in that group.

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07-06-2009, 08:39 PM
  #34
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I don't think White gets traded unless he refuses to grow back the 'stache.

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Old
07-06-2009, 08:41 PM
  #35
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I don't think White gets traded unless he refuses to grow back the 'stache.
That's actually the only reason he has any value so....

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Old
07-06-2009, 08:48 PM
  #36
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Well i think Schenn and White worked pretty good together last season so:

Kaberle Komisarek
Schenn White
Van Ryn Beauchemin

Just roll the lines, and that's a pretty damn good top 6

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Old
07-06-2009, 08:59 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by bunjay View Post
MVR was surprisingly good at everything while he was healthy.
Agreed, some team will get a steal with MVR, because if he is traded I can't see it being for much.

The guy is a legit top 4 d-man. Only complaint I have from last year was that he could never stay healthy.

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Old
07-06-2009, 09:03 PM
  #38
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Jeff Finger does not suck in my opinion. He is versatile and has decent upside offensively and defensively.

He had an increase in points despite having a decrease in games played.

He is a legitimate NHLer and as a 5th or 6th dman on the Leafs I am happy to have him. This past season he put in a year very similar to Ohlund's and Ohlund got a significant contract like Fingers in dollar value but even longer in term. The fact that Finger won't be expected to play over his head is great. He should be able to excel in his role playing 16-18 minutes a game.

I believe Finger has great character and is very coachable. I think he will be a good team member. I bet he plays more physically now that there are other physical guys on the team.

The culture on the Leafs will be vastly different with Komisarek, Beauchemin, Exelby, and Orr, and I expect that the team will get along very well and have a lunch-pail work ethic. Finger should fit in great in that mix as will Schenn, White, and Van Ryn.

Injuries always happen. There is nothing wrong with competition. The Leafs should not fret about going forward with 8 dmen... There are undoubtedly going to be teams looking for dmen at the deadline. Van Ryn will be attractive to many teams.

I felt that aside from his injuries, Van Ryn was on of the best Leafs last year.

The Leafs D is in great shape, and I think the team management has surrounded Luke Schenn with numerous mentors.

I would however like to see a bit more commitment to Stralman's development.

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Old
07-06-2009, 09:16 PM
  #39
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by Heaters not lazt View Post
Cut out the last paragraph because there's no way White is the centerpiece coming back for Kessel.

Ryder is the only one I see possible in that group.
He wouldn't Tlusty & him would be as a substitute for the offer sheet return.

Ryder for White would problably be straight up, you could then get into permutations along the lines of White + Stajan or someone for Bergeron.

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07-06-2009, 09:32 PM
  #40
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Of course you'd do ryder for white. You're a bruins fan

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Old
07-06-2009, 09:45 PM
  #41
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Of course you'd do ryder for white. You're a bruins fan
Ryder would be on the LEafs first line... The only reason the Bruins would do it is to clear cap space.

Ryder>>>>>>White.

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07-06-2009, 09:52 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Heaters not lazt View Post
Get over it.
I dislike hypocrisy, so sue me.

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Originally Posted by Heaters not lazt View Post
Ryder would be on the LEafs first line... The only reason the Bruins would do it is to clear cap space.

Ryder>>>>>>White.
Whether or not Ryder would be on the Leafs first line is irrelevant (he may or may not). He's a 29 year old 50-55 point guy on a mediocre contract. White is a 25 year old top 4 defenseman on an excellent contract. There is absolutely no way that Ryder>>>>>>White. Put as many >'s as you want.

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Old
07-06-2009, 10:03 PM
  #43
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With his injuries I wouldn't want him playing 20+ minutes a game, nor would I expect him to play more then 40 games. With those two qualities I would not be comfortable without having 4 other dmen who can play top 4 and therefore would not consider him a legitimate top 4 dman. There may be some that disagree with me and he could very well prove me wrong if he is healthy but if you are advertising him as a "Legitimate top 4 dman" don't be surprised when someone calls Bull.

Is Gaborik a legitimate Top 6 forward?....get where I am going with this?

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07-06-2009, 10:20 PM
  #44
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I think Jeff finger does have some value. He is a serviceable D-Man with a solid health track record. He plays well defensively and can move the puck on the first pass and pop in a few points. He can play 20 minutes per game and be relied on.

His salary is a little too steep but as was witnessed n UFA signings, GM's are willing to sign big cheques. A team looking for a player like Finger would be willing to offer a reasonable return which may only be a 3rd rounder but that is not too bad considering the Leafs may be needing to clear space.

Kaberle could be moved but he is the only true offensive D-Man. The question is whether Kaberle will bounce back next year and stay healthy and contribute in the 55+ point range. If so, great for Toronto. If not, it will affect his value tremendously.

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07-06-2009, 10:30 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaOneManGang View Post
Is Gaborik a legitimate Top 6 forward?....get where I am going with this?
If you read my last post you would see what I think about Gaborik.

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If you have DiPietro penciled into your starting goaltender position you better have a VERY good backup or 1B otherwise your team will probably be screwed, ie. having Joey MacDonald and Yann Danis as your tandem. Gaborik and Havlat are different because they have All-Star talent but with their injuries they are more like top line forwards. Since Van Ryn only have top 4 talent his injuries make him a fringe top 4 player. Like I said it depends on your opinion but if I were a GM and looking to acquire Van Ryn I wouldn't be looking for him to be a lock in my top 4. If you had said that he can be a top 4 dman I wouldn't have complained but I think because of his injuries he is a fringe top 4.
You can not honestly believe that a player with health issues is just as valuable as one without, Gaborik is a legit top line forward but without the health issues he would annually be an All-Star and one of the top players in the league. Van Ryn has played 57 games over the past TWO YEARS. If he could play that many games in one year and play the way he has in the past he would be a legit top 4 defenceman but until he can prove he can constantly play ~20 minutes a night and well over half the year no GM is going to feel comfortable pencilling him into a top 4 spot unless he has anouther dman that will be able to step up. THAT is why he is a fringe top 4, because he cannot be counted on to play ~20 minutes a night for most of the year which is needed to be a top 4 d.

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Old
07-08-2009, 04:11 PM
  #46
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Would Kaberle fetch any of:
Josh Bailey -NYI (with the arrival of the "saviour", would they part with JB for a D man that can get the puck to Tavares?)

Derick Brassard - CLB?

Nathan Horton - FLA? Back with his buddy McCabe....

Could he be worth that much on the market?

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07-08-2009, 04:18 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fortheshow View Post
Would Kaberle fetch any of:
Josh Bailey -NYI (with the arrival of the "saviour", would they part with JB for a D man that can get the puck to Tavares?)

Derick Brassard - CLB?

Nathan Horton - FLA? Back with his buddy McCabe....

Could he be worth that much on the market?
Could he be worth that much? Possibly, depending who we're talking about (i.e not Brassard). A team like NY will never trade a young player away for Kaberle though. Horton might make some sense, thats roughly analogous to the Kessel trade. Brassard isn't likely to be dealt, the Jackets need that centre depth, and he's the only potential first line centre on that team.

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Old
07-08-2009, 04:22 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Shaun_W_W View Post
THAT is why he is a fringe top 4, because he cannot be counted on to play ~20 minutes a night for most of the year which is needed to be a top 4 d.
This is just quibbling about language, but while what you describe is right (he has less value because of injuries) the way you describe it is causing people to disagree with you. Van Ryn is a top four D, but he has less value because of his injuries. Teams have to weigh his potential against his likelihood to realise that potential. This doesn't make him less of a top four.

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Old
07-08-2009, 04:22 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fortheshow View Post
Would Kaberle fetch any of:
Josh Bailey -NYI (with the arrival of the "saviour", would they part with JB for a D man that can get the puck to Tavares?)

Derick Brassard - CLB?

Nathan Horton - FLA? Back with his buddy McCabe....

Could he be worth that much on the market?
no, no, and no...

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Old
07-08-2009, 04:23 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2fortheshow View Post
Would Kaberle fetch any of:
Josh Bailey -NYI (with the arrival of the "saviour", would they part with JB for a D man that can get the puck to Tavares?)

Derick Brassard - CLB?

Nathan Horton - FLA? Back with his buddy McCabe....

Could he be worth that much on the market?
no way

Bailey is the least proven of the three and I wouldnt even consider moving him for Kaberle he doesnt fit a need on our team in our situation

Kaberle goes to a contender

like before the Pronger Deal I could have seen a Kaberle Briere swap but Briere isnt a Burke type so.....

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