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Old
07-16-2009, 01:41 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Alberta Yote View Post
My only concern with Byfuglien is that even though he played very well in the playoffs last year he hasn't shown the consistency you would expect from someone already signed to a $3 mill per year contract. Can he keep that effort level and intensity through the year? He's also not yet been a 20 goal scorer but he is young and very large.

Sharp would be excellent. He could slot in as this team's #1 center and best PK'er. Not often you'd get a chance at a player like that.
I agree about Byfuglien. Too risky for the price. We could end up getting a three million dollar a year, younger version of Mike Grier.

I'm also not willing to sell the farm for Versteeg, who could end up being a flash in the pan. The warning signs are there. He kind of came out of nowhere, produced better numbers than he did even in the minors, and did it while playing for an amazingly talented offensive team. Drop him into this mess we have in the desert, and I could see him burn right out. It's not exactly the most fair concern, or the most logical, but I've seen it happen before. Would I love to have him? Absolutely. Would I pay an arm and a leg for him? Absolutely not.

Cam Barker is not what we need.

Patrick Sharp would be an amazing pick-up. I seriously doubt he's on the table. He's just too valuable to that team. They're looking to win the cup, next season, and he's just the player to help them get there.

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07-16-2009, 01:43 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chootoi View Post
Here's the deal I proposed on the main board:

To PHX:

Sharp
Barker

To CHI:

Mueller
Aucoin
Calgary 1st in 2010
Ross
I don't know, but if I'm Chicago I think that it's a rather ridiculous overpayment. Sharp and Barker packaged together are worth a LOT more than Mueller, Aucoin, Ross, and a late-round 1st.

IMO if we wanted to pursue that trade we'd have to give up one of Turris and Boedker, Goncharov or Summers, and the 1st, and even then I'm not sure the deal would get done.

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07-16-2009, 01:49 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Chootoi View Post
You'
To PHX:

Sharp
Barker

To CHI:

Mueller
Aucoin
Calgary 1st in 2010
Ross
Take Barker out and deal just for Sharp.

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07-16-2009, 02:02 PM
  #29
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I agree about Byfuglien. Too risky for the price. We could end up getting a three million dollar a year, younger version of Mike Grier.

I'm also not willing to sell the farm for Versteeg, who could end up being a flash in the pan. The warning signs are there. He kind of came out of nowhere, produced better numbers than he did even in the minors, and did it while playing for an amazingly talented offensive team. Drop him into this mess we have in the desert, and I could see him burn right out. It's not exactly the most fair concern, or the most logical, but I've seen it happen before. Would I love to have him? Absolutely. Would I pay an arm and a leg for him? Absolutely not.

Cam Barker is not what we need.

Patrick Sharp would be an amazing pick-up. I seriously doubt he's on the table. He's just too valuable to that team. They're looking to win the cup, next season, and he's just the player to help them get there.
I watched Versteeg very closely this year, and every game I watched he was always a player who stood out. Slick stick handler, good skater, quick/accurate shot, etc. I don't see him as a flash in the pan at all. He is a very skilled player who will have a good NHL career.

Cam Barker might not be our most pressing need but he sure as hell would make us a much more formidable opponent. He plays a very solid 2-way game as a D-man, produces some points from the blue line. He is signed for a little over $3M.

I would love to have Sharp as well but I don't see the Blackhawks trading him. He is the heart and sole of that team and is an all around solid player.

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07-16-2009, 02:06 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
I don't know, but if I'm Chicago I think that it's a rather ridiculous overpayment. Sharp and Barker packaged together are worth a LOT more than Mueller, Aucoin, Ross, and a late-round 1st.
I know this. I'm factoring in the proclaimed "chicago cap hell" feature. In any case it's a fantasy trade. For one we aren't going to trade Aucoin less than a month after signing him and also the Hawks wouldn't trade both players anyway, it'd just be a one player deal to get them cap-comfortable.

Would anyone here just do Mueller for Sharp straight up? I can't help but feel you're going to get much more value and mileage out of Sharp.

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07-16-2009, 02:10 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Chootoi View Post
I know this. I'm factoring in the proclaimed "chicago cap hell" feature. In any case it's a fantasy trade. For one we aren't going to trade Aucoin less than a month after signing him and also the Hawks wouldn't trade both players anyway, it'd just be a one player deal to get them cap-comfortable.

Would anyone here just do Mueller for Sharp straight up? I can't help but feel you're going to get much more value and mileage out of Sharp.
You forgot to mention that Aucoin also used up a bunch of the Hawks' cap space for a few years once already and I don't think fans there have forgiven him. It was his fault you know.

As for Mueller for Sharp, yes, I would reluctantly do it. Sharp replaces/increases Mueller's offense right now and when he isn't scoring is still a demon on the PK. Seems easy but I say "reluctantly" because I still believe Mueller is going to figure out what it takes to succeed at this level eventually and that when that happens he can be 35 goal 80 point guy.

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07-16-2009, 02:21 PM
  #32
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If Mueller just kind of plods along at the rate he's been going(assuming last year was more just a case of a bad sophomore season), I see him as a Mike Ryder type. If he makes significant strides in his game and really improves in a lot of areas(which is entirely possible and almost likely, really, given his age), than he could be something much more. Too valuable to move for an older guy like Sharp(I know he's only 27). Sharp really only "broke-out" offensively three seasons ago, putting up something like twenty goals and fifteen assists, or so, in a full season. Then, the next season he really took of and potted like twenty five-ish or thirty-ish goals and thirty-ish assists. Last season, he kind of came back down to earth and scored like twenty five goals and less than twenty assists, but did miss some significant time(twenty games, or so) with injury. So, at his age, your probably looking at a 25-30 goal, 20-25 assist type, offensively. Probably the lower end of that spectrum, here in Phoenix. Of course he brings intangibles and a two-way game that Mueller simply never will. Is that worth giving up a half decade's worth of years and all of that potential upside Mueller has? I'm not sure.


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Old
07-16-2009, 03:01 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Chootoi View Post
Would anyone here just do Mueller for Sharp straight up? I can't help but feel you're going to get much more value and mileage out of Sharp.
I'd do Mueller and Ross for Sharp in a heartbeat.

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07-16-2009, 03:21 PM
  #34
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Ill gamble on mueller over sharp any day. I like sharp, I like what he brings. However, he has 1 season better than Mueller rookie season. Mueller scored 22 at 19. He shouldn't be traded for a borderline 1st liner.

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07-16-2009, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by PHX FireBirds18 View Post
I like Sharp, I really do. I'm not a fan of that trade, because a few years down the line Mueller is going to be the better player by far imo. It seems to me that Mueller's playmaking is starting to get a tad underrated around here, he's not some one dimensional sniper, far from it.
I think a distinction needs to be made between Mueller's skill and potential and his likelihood to capitalize on it. This year will be critical for him to prove that last year was an aberration and not a trend for his future career.

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07-16-2009, 05:25 PM
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I think a distinction needs to be made between Mueller's skill and potential and his likelihood to capitalize on it. This year will be critical for him to prove that last year was an aberration and not a trend for his future career.
Agreed. I'm really hoping that last year was just the usual second year jinx. The difference in play from his rookie year to last year was night and day. I guess I just have high expectations for the guy, and what he is capable of. I would like to see how he would do without a leg injury to start the year, and the concussion mid-season. I don't need to see the guy breakout, just him building on his rookie season, and returning to doing all the little things right would make me a very happy guy.

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07-16-2009, 05:48 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by zyllyx View Post
I think a distinction needs to be made between Mueller's skill and potential and his likelihood to capitalize on it. This year will be critical for him to prove that last year was an aberration and not a trend for his future career.
Unless concussion issues persist, he will easily be at least the offensive contributer that Sharp has been lately. No question. Whether or not he can become significantly better, in that department, and also improve other aspects of his game enough, to be a more valuable player than Sharp is really the question. As a Blackhawk with offensively talented players Sharp is pretty much a 25-30 goal 20-25 assist type. That's with Toews and Kane, who are already seventy point guys and Versteeg and Bolland who are already fifty point guys, and Havlat, who's basically a point per game guy. We don't have those types here. Not yet. Sharp is already twenty seven. So if Sharp is a fifty five-ish point player in Chicago, what is he in Phoenix?

Mueller has already put up fifty five points, as a teenager, with the FREAKING COYOTES. Even last year, a terrible year, he put up thirty five, and would've had at least fourty, if not for the concussion. Yes, Sharp brings a lot more to the table than scoring, but Pete has a lot more offensive potential. A lot. In his last three seasons(his best in the NHL) Sharp has been at .64 points per game player. In Mueller's two NHL seasons, he's been a .59 points per game player. .64 versus .59. Sharp has averaged 74 games a year in that span. Which multiplied by his average per game would be 47 points. Mueller has averaged 77 games at .59, or 45 points.

I don't expect Sharp will suddenly start producing at a much higher rate, at this point. Especially if traded to Phoenix. I do expect Mueller will get much, much better offensively. Also, I imagine the rest of his game will improve, at least somewhat. Never to the level of Sharp, but definitely better than Mueller's game away from the puck is now.

I may be Mueller's biggest critic around here, but he's just a kid and he's only been in the league a couple of years. Do you know where Sharp was in his career at the same age? He had 44 NHL games and 7 points to show for it. Pete can be a slug, out there, but his skillset is undeniable. Give him some experience and maturity and he will be a damn valuable player.

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07-16-2009, 06:01 PM
  #38
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Agreed. It would not be smart to trade Mueller for Sharp. I think we are over-valuing Sharp.

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07-16-2009, 06:19 PM
  #39
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I think word on the street was that Mueller had some off ice issues, as well as... "training" issues that made him generally worthless last season. He has recommitted, or so I've been told, so we shall see. I think he would feel liberated under a new coach with some encouragement and a bit more responsibility. He is not a guy you want to lean on as a leader, but will be an important contributor.

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07-16-2009, 06:57 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by XavierX View Post
I think word on the street was that Mueller had some off ice issues, as well as... "training" issues that made him generally worthless last season. He has recommitted, or so I've been told, so we shall see. I think he would feel liberated under a new coach with some encouragement and a bit more responsibility. He is not a guy you want to lean on as a leader, but will be an important contributor.
You seem to be suggesting that he isn't training enough, but I believe his problem last season was that he bulked up too much. He put on too much muscle which affected his mobility. etc. He just needs to train properly. I'm sure he learned from his mistake.

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07-16-2009, 07:24 PM
  #41
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You seem to be suggesting that he isn't training enough, but I believe his problem last season was that he bulked up too much. He put on too much muscle which affected his mobility. etc. He just needs to train properly. I'm sure he learned from his mistake.
Muscle isn't the only way to gain weight. Even so, if it was all muscle, that's probably not what the team would've wanted. Perhaps he decided he was going to do his own training program, against better advice. That would still constitute "training issues", I suppose. I don't really know, I expect a big improvement from the guy, barring concussion issues, which are my main concern about the kid at this point. I think the proper conditioning, and work ethic both on and off the ice is obviously more correctable. Teaching him what a hockey body is and how to get one shouldn't be too hard. Teaching him to keep moving his feet and to backcheck will be a little harder, but not impossible. He's not Pavel Brendl, or anything. You can't teach a brain to heal, so hopefully that will take care of itself.

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07-16-2009, 07:32 PM
  #42
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Perhaps he decided he was going to do his own training program, against better advice.
As long as he doesn't take the "Alex Bourret Kroc Workout" approach, he should be fine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP-IwJcqpRA


"Look fellas. Don't I look sexy in my yellow Krocs?" (Say it out loud with a lisp)

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07-16-2009, 08:49 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Muscle isn't the only way to gain weight. Even so, if it was all muscle, that's probably not what the team would've wanted. Perhaps he decided he was going to do his own training program, against better advice. That would still constitute "training issues", I suppose. I don't really know, I expect a big improvement from the guy, barring concussion issues, which are my main concern about the kid at this point. I think the proper conditioning, and work ethic both on and off the ice is obviously more correctable. Teaching him what a hockey body is and how to get one shouldn't be too hard. Teaching him to keep moving his feet and to backcheck will be a little harder, but not impossible. He's not Pavel Brendl, or anything. You can't teach a brain to heal, so hopefully that will take care of itself.
I believe I got that info about him adding too much muscle from a Maloney interview. I don't have time to look it it up, maybe I will later. Don't you guys remember the videos and stuff last offseason from Athletes Performance Center or something where Mueller was working out with D-Mo?

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07-16-2009, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LetsGoCoyotes View Post
I believe I got that info about him adding too much muscle from a Maloney interview. I don't have time to look it it up, maybe I will later. Don't you guys remember the videos and stuff last offseason from Athletes Performance Center or something where Mueller was working out with D-Mo?
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Originally Posted by LetsGoCoyotes View Post
You seem to be suggesting that he isn't training enough, but I believe his problem last season was that he bulked up too much. He put on too much muscle which affected his mobility. etc. He just needs to train properly. I'm sure he learned from his mistake.
I can't comment specifically, for various reasons. But needless to say he will be rejuvenated and a little lighter on his feet this season. He thought that bulking up just to be big would make things easier when in reality it was the opposite. There is a mental issue side to this whole story, as well. I wouldn't count him down and out, but Peter has never been the most focused player. I'm sure I'm not the only one who gets the impression he is constantly stoned out of his mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGoCoyotes View Post
I believe I got that info about him adding too much muscle from a Maloney interview. I don't have time to look it it up, maybe I will later. Don't you guys remember the videos and stuff last offseason from Athletes Performance Center or something where Mueller was working out with D-Mo?
Yes, but post-concussion there were a lot of issues off the ice as well.

All in all, last season was a mess for a lot of players. I wouldn't say his case is unique. Everyone, on the whole, needs to take a step back and a deep breath. I think a new coaching staff would go a long way in expediting that process. If the coaching staff doesnt change, and players are suddenly saddled with new expectations or say relegated to the AHL for no particular reason, there will be issues. New personnel handling the players allows for those changes without any real ill feelings or confusion.

If player A was a Gretz favorite and suddenly this season he (or management) turns the tables on him, there are bad feelings.

If player A was a Gretz favorite and the new coach drops all preconceived notions of player roles and asks the players to demonstrate to him his worth, it puts the ball in the players court to rise to the occasion.



I really, really hope for the players sake that they change the staffing.

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07-16-2009, 09:38 PM
  #45
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I may be Mueller's biggest critic around here.
I still believe that title belongs to WJF.

As for Mueller, the guy is working out 6 days a week sometimes twice a day. I'm not worried about any symptoms from the hit Niedermeyer gave him, because from what he said they are long gone, and he wouldn't be able to work out like that if he still had problems. What I'm worried about is, when a player gets a concussion he's more prone to suffer another quite easily. Let's hope this doesn't become an issue in his career.


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07-16-2009, 09:45 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by LetsGoCoyotes View Post
I believe I got that info about him adding too much muscle from a Maloney interview. I don't have time to look it it up, maybe I will later. Don't you guys remember the videos and stuff last offseason from Athletes Performance Center or something where Mueller was working out with D-Mo?
I thought that was Brett Maclean and not Mueller?

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07-17-2009, 09:09 AM
  #47
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I thought that was Brett Maclean and not Mueller?
MacLean might have been there too, but it was Mueller: http://coyotes.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?&id=20292

I can't find the Maloney interview. I'll keep looking.

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07-17-2009, 11:32 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Muscle isn't the only way to gain weight. Even so, if it was all muscle, that's probably not what the team would've wanted. Perhaps he decided he was going to do his own training program, against better advice. That would still constitute "training issues", I suppose. I don't really know, I expect a big improvement from the guy, barring concussion issues, which are my main concern about the kid at this point. I think the proper conditioning, and work ethic both on and off the ice is obviously more correctable. Teaching him what a hockey body is and how to get one shouldn't be too hard. Teaching him to keep moving his feet and to backcheck will be a little harder, but not impossible. He's not Pavel Brendl, or anything. You can't teach a brain to heal, so hopefully that will take care of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LetsGoCoyotes View Post
I believe I got that info about him adding too much muscle from a Maloney interview. I don't have time to look it it up, maybe I will later. Don't you guys remember the videos and stuff last offseason from Athletes Performance Center or something where Mueller was working out with D-Mo?
Even so, if it was all muscle, that's probably not what the team would've wanted. Perhaps he decided he was going to do his own training program, against better advice. That would still constitute "training issues", I suppose.

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07-17-2009, 03:30 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by LetsGoCoyotes View Post
MacLean might have been there too, but it was Mueller: http://coyotes.nhl.tv/team/console.jsp?&id=20292

I can't find the Maloney interview. I'll keep looking.
Didn't remember him being there thanks. I saw MacLean and Ahnelov in there as well.

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08-23-2009, 08:13 PM
  #50
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With the Arrest of Patrick Kane does this mean that any type of trade involving Chicago is out of the question until the legal mess is cleared up?

I like the Idea of bring in Sharp and or Campbell in case if what we need can only be down by trade and not signing free agents on the market. However who could we turn to next if Chicago is not an option?
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