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LA/SJ: Stoll for Marleau.

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Old
07-08-2009, 10:25 AM
  #26
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Marleau does not have much value around the league especially with the cap hell the Sharks are in

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07-08-2009, 10:32 AM
  #27
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Marleau does not have much value around the league especially with the cap hell the Sharks are in
Lol, what? I think you are confused with Heatley.

Marleau's value is as high as it has ever been coming off a career best season. He ended it injured, but that hardly hurt his value any. The question is more about his willingness to waive his NTC and do the Sharks really even want to trade him.

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07-08-2009, 10:40 AM
  #28
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I like the start of this. Stoll is one of the best faceoff guys in the league, on the #1PK, and busts his ass every shift. Just add something else with it.

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07-08-2009, 10:42 AM
  #29
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Patrick Marleau will get you a fair bit more than just Jarrett Stoll. Maybe add in a Thomas Hickey as well as another top prospect or draft pick, then maybe San Jose listens

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07-08-2009, 10:47 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinVanBuren View Post
To Kings: Patrick Marleau (6.3M)
To Sharks: Jarrett Stoll (3.6M)

Marleau had 71 points on the Sharks. Stoll had 41 on the Kings. Take that as you wish. This is mostly a trade of cap hits.

The Sharks are in deep **** when it comes to the cap. They have about 1.5M to resign 6 forwards and a back-up goalie. This gives them an extra 2.7M. This also removes the need to sign a 2nd line center since Stoll is signed for 2 more seasons after next.

With the Smyth acquisition, the Kings are trying to make the playoffs. Marleau allows them to do this better than Stoll. And with the contract being only 1 season, they'll have a spot open for Moller or Schenn or Kane/Toews (if the Hawks have cap problems next season).

Thoughts?

edit: I was looking at the wrong year.
We will never confuse Stoll as someone with Marleau's skills, but I take this as being a very fair deal.

1: Sharks need some cap space.
2: LA has tons of cap space
3: Marleau and Stoll are natural centers and if Marleau doesn't play the wing he's very heavily overpaid to play the 2nd line center position. Stoll is a decent 2nd line center 5 on 5 and is still young enough that we'll likely see him get a bit better.
4: Stoll is gritty for his size, has a great slap shot and most importantly is great on the PK.
5: Marleau brings skill, speed size and guaranteed production.

So San Jose gets a 2nd line center who's got the cap hit of a 2nd line center so that they can spend money elsewhere.
L.A gets a superstar center and has the cap space to have a good shot at resigning him considering how nice the weather is down there and considering all the wonderful prospects LA has turning into impact players.

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07-08-2009, 10:50 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
Patrick Marleau will get you a fair bit more than just Jarrett Stoll. Maybe add in a Thomas Hickey as well as another top prospect or draft pick, then maybe San Jose listens
They won't throw hickey in or anyone nearly as valuable as hickey because of what stoll brings to the table. He's one of the best in the league on faceoffs. (See what happened to Edmonton once he left?) He's one of the best penalty killers out there. (Mac-T might've still had his job if he still had Stoll on the PK) If he were a 2nd line center with San Jose, playing on the 1st PK and 2nd PP he'd be good for 60 points and 25+ goals without a doubt.

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07-08-2009, 10:52 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
We will never confuse Stoll as someone with Marleau's skills, but I take this as being a very fair deal.

1: Sharks need some cap space.
2: LA has tons of cap space
3: Marleau and Stoll are natural centers and if Marleau doesn't play the wing he's very heavily overpaid to play the 2nd line center position. Stoll is a decent 2nd line center 5 on 5 and is still young enough that we'll likely see him get a bit better.
4: Stoll is gritty for his size, has a great slap shot and most importantly is great on the PK.
5: Marleau brings skill, speed size and guaranteed production.

So San Jose gets a 2nd line center who's got the cap hit of a 2nd line center so that they can spend money elsewhere.
L.A gets a superstar center and has the cap space to have a good shot at resigning him considering how nice the weather is down there and considering all the wonderful prospects LA has turning into impact players.
Why in the world would the Sharks need another 2nd line center?

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Old
07-08-2009, 10:58 AM
  #33
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Quote:
1: Sharks need some cap space.
2: LA has tons of cap space
3: Marleau and Stoll are natural centers and if Marleau doesn't play the wing he's very heavily overpaid to play the 2nd line center position. Stoll is a decent 2nd line center 5 on 5 and is still young enough that we'll likely see him get a bit better.
4: Stoll is gritty for his size, has a great slap shot and most importantly is great on the PK.
5: Marleau brings skill, speed size and guaranteed production.
1: Yes
2: Ok
3: But... he does play wing, and just had a career year doing so
4: Replace slap shot with wrist shot and you just described Joe Pavelski, our second line center.
5: Which makes his value extremely high.

This is just ridiculous. You clearly have no idea of the Shark's needs, or even of the players that they have. Pavelski is a fantastic second line center, who I wouldn't trade for Stoll straight up, with future captain potential.

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Old
07-08-2009, 11:58 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
We will never confuse Stoll as someone with Marleau's skills, but I take this as being a very fair deal.

2: LA has tons of cap space
The Kings really don't have tons of cap space. Since the Scuderi and Smyth acquisitions, they are just under 50 million right now, and that's before giving Johnson and Purcell their contracts.

They won't be able to take an extra 3 million in salary from acquiring Marleau unless something goes the other way, and they've already gotten rid of their "bad" contract in Preissing.

This deal is pretty much an impossibility.

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Old
07-08-2009, 01:17 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinVanBuren View Post
The Sharks are in deep **** when it comes to the cap.
You are so right. I hope DW starts trading our best players pretty soon.

Thornton for Trevor Lewis and a 5th, perhaps?
Maybe Dan Boyle and a prospect for and for Michael Handzus?

God, the sooner we dump all these stupid contracts and middlin' players to our divisional rivals the better.



In all seriousness, was the OP legitimate? I assumed it was a mickey take given the ridiculous valuations...

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Old
07-08-2009, 01:30 PM
  #36
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First off i'm not sure i agree that the Sharks are in cap trouble. They don't have to at or under cap for about 3 months. The sharks are not in a panic to shed payroll.

This deal does help our cap situation and enables Patty to be re-united with Deano. I like the deal overall, it does feel like the sharks should get alittle more in return in addition to Stoll.

I'd put Stoll on the 3rd line with Cheecho and Mitchel for some scoring depth.

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07-08-2009, 01:33 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by VP and GM View Post
I'd put Stoll on the 3rd line with Cheecho and Mitchel for some scoring depth.
You want to add scoring depth on our 3rd line... by giving up our top scorer?

Please explain, I must be missing something.

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Old
07-08-2009, 01:35 PM
  #38
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If Wilson decides that Marleau is the one to go, LA makes a bunch on sense as a destination.

- He steps in as their 1st line center, best goal scorer, and best defensive forward.
- They would have enough firepower to make the playoffs and start getting their young guys some "REAL" season exprience.
-Dean already knows Patty
-They have some cap space and the young forward assets the Sharks would be looking for in return.
-LA is a good option for Patty to waive his NTC and sign long term because it is fairly close to San Jose (where his wife is from)

Stoll isn't the right guy in return. Pavelski and Mitchell are young, cheap, improving, and have already established they can fill the roles of 2nd and 3rd line centers on a contending team.

But IF Marleau is going, LA makes some sense.

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Old
07-08-2009, 01:45 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by CupfortheSharks View Post
-LA is a good option for Patty to waive his NTC and sign long term because it is fairly close to San Jose (where his wife is from)
Relative to the rest of North America, I guess, but I wouldn't put that as high on the list as motivations.

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07-08-2009, 01:50 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by VP and GM View Post
First off i'm not sure i agree that the Sharks are in cap trouble. They don't have to at or under cap for about 3 months. The sharks are not in a panic to shed payroll.

This deal does help our cap situation and enables Patty to be re-united with Deano. I like the deal overall, it does feel like the sharks should get alittle more in return in addition to Stoll.

I'd put Stoll on the 3rd line with Cheecho and Mitchel for some scoring depth.
Cap trouble is not defined by how much time there is left to get under the cap, it's defined by whether you are over the cap or close to it. So yes, San Jose is in cap trouble.

That being said, the Sharks aren't going to do a deal that weakens them by a lot just because fans from other teams wish that it happens. GMs think before they act, at least most of them do. They don't panic and take low-ball offers for core-players just to get under the cap. There are other options available.

As was already mentioned, you don't gain scoring depth by trading your second best scorer (and best goalscorer). Not to mention that it would require more than just "a little" in addition to Stoll to match Marleau's value, and that Stoll isn't really someone the Sharks have much need for.

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07-08-2009, 02:26 PM
  #41
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07-08-2009, 02:30 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colorfinger View Post
If you consider Marleau being primarily a LW, the logical swap would be based around Frolov. You wouldn't want one of Marleau, Frolov, Smyth on the third line. That is too much salary tied up in wingers (and Dean doesn't value them as highly, so I don't think he would do that).

Now if you are looking at Marleau as a center, Frolov doesn't work from the Kings point of view because that would put them right back where they were before aquiring Smyth. So someone like Stoll would have to interest the Sharks to get the talks started. Someone like Moller doesn't fit the bill from the Kings point of view because he is low salary and not currently slotted somewhere Marleau would play like Frolov or Stoll. So you wouldn't be replacing Salary there, just adding it.

Of course, that could change if the Kings had a second deal lined up. In theory, if they found a home for Stoll they could swap someone like Moller in a deal for Marleau if they felt that was the direction they wanted to go in. It would seem to seal Frolov's fate as not being resigned, but that may prove to be the case anyway.
Dean Lombardi of all people knows from both sides what Patrick Marleau is capable of. He knows how flexible he is and with the way the Kings are setup, Marleau in would help them a lot. If you want him to be on the wing, he'd be best on the top line but if you want to spread the offensive wealth then he can play and produce a 70 point season from the 2nd line as well. If we assume my proposal of Frolov, Simmonds, a 2nd and a 4th the Kings top two lines can be Marleau-Kopitar-Brown and Smyth-Moller/Stoll-Williams. Not a bad setup at all offensively. Then again, the Kings don't really need him either but he is an upgrade on every winger right now on the Kings offensively. The good thing about Marleau is that he would allow the Kings flexibility in special teams because he can center a PK line to give other skill players a rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juice1815 View Post
Marleau does not have much value around the league especially with the cap hell the Sharks are in
haha...next time you have a thought, just let it go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lcarnegie View Post
I like the start of this. Stoll is one of the best faceoff guys in the league, on the #1PK, and busts his ass every shift. Just add something else with it.
Uh, except the Sharks have absolutely no need or desire to get Stoll because he doesn't fill a vacant spot on the Sharks roster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thadd View Post
We will never confuse Stoll as someone with Marleau's skills, but I take this as being a very fair deal.

1: Sharks need some cap space.
2: LA has tons of cap space
3: Marleau and Stoll are natural centers and if Marleau doesn't play the wing he's very heavily overpaid to play the 2nd line center position. Stoll is a decent 2nd line center 5 on 5 and is still young enough that we'll likely see him get a bit better.
4: Stoll is gritty for his size, has a great slap shot and most importantly is great on the PK.
5: Marleau brings skill, speed size and guaranteed production.

So San Jose gets a 2nd line center who's got the cap hit of a 2nd line center so that they can spend money elsewhere.
L.A gets a superstar center and has the cap space to have a good shot at resigning him considering how nice the weather is down there and considering all the wonderful prospects LA has turning into impact players.
You can't consider it fair when the roster players being returned fill absolutely no need. If the Sharks want to dump Marleau, they can at least find a team that can return players that will fill roster spots they need to have filled. Jarret Stoll, for the fiftieth time, does not fill any roster spot on the Sharks. Is it so much to ask to expect people to at the least research what roster spots need to be filled before making a proposal? The Sharks need 3rd and 4th line wingers, a 4th line center, and a top six winger ONLY if and when one is dealt.

I don't see how a player that, even at his worst is a 0.89 point per game player in the 2nd line center role, is overpaid for that role. He's shown the ability to produce 75-85 points on the 2nd line and 6.3 is overpaid?

So in the end, San Jose addresses zero roster issues and actually opens up yet another roster issue by trading its leading goal scorer and save a grand total of 2.7 million dollars in cap space. The Sharks can accomplish saving 3 million in cap space w/o opening up a critical roster issue by sending Jonathan Cheechoo to Worcester.

Patrick Marleau is not a salary dump so if you're going to ask any team for their leading goal scorer, you can expect to at least address one of their needs on their roster and not just toss around some redundant player back because he makes less.

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07-08-2009, 03:01 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Dean Lombardi of all people knows from both sides what Patrick Marleau is capable of. He knows how flexible he is and with the way the Kings are setup, Marleau in would help them a lot. If you want him to be on the wing, he'd be best on the top line but if you want to spread the offensive wealth then he can play and produce a 70 point season from the 2nd line as well. If we assume my proposal of Frolov, Simmonds, a 2nd and a 4th the Kings top two lines can be Marleau-Kopitar-Brown and Smyth-Moller/Stoll-Williams. Not a bad setup at all offensively. Then again, the Kings don't really need him either but he is an upgrade on every winger right now on the Kings offensively. The good thing about Marleau is that he would allow the Kings flexibility in special teams because he can center a PK line to give other skill players a rest.



haha...next time you have a thought, just let it go.



Uh, except the Sharks have absolutely no need or desire to get Stoll because he doesn't fill a vacant spot on the Sharks roster.



You can't consider it fair when the roster players being returned fill absolutely no need. If the Sharks want to dump Marleau, they can at least find a team that can return players that will fill roster spots they need to have filled. Jarret Stoll, for the fiftieth time, does not fill any roster spot on the Sharks. Is it so much to ask to expect people to at the least research what roster spots need to be filled before making a proposal? The Sharks need 3rd and 4th line wingers, a 4th line center, and a top six winger ONLY if and when one is dealt.

I don't see how a player that, even at his worst is a 0.89 point per game player in the 2nd line center role, is overpaid for that role. He's shown the ability to produce 75-85 points on the 2nd line and 6.3 is overpaid?

So in the end, San Jose addresses zero roster issues and actually opens up yet another roster issue by trading its leading goal scorer and save a grand total of 2.7 million dollars in cap space. The Sharks can accomplish saving 3 million in cap space w/o opening up a critical roster issue by sending Jonathan Cheechoo to Worcester.

Patrick Marleau is not a salary dump so if you're going to ask any team for their leading goal scorer, you can expect to at least address one of their needs on their roster and not just toss around some redundant player back because he makes less.

I think you are pretty much spot on. Marleau is not a pure salary dump. He is an upgrade over most of the Kings roster at their current ability (not talking potential here, so Kings fans please don't flame on that comment), he is versitile, and he is the kind of player Dean really likes and knows... so it makes a lot of sense for a lot of reasons, but he isn't a guy the Kings 'must have' now that they filled the hole on LW.

Looking at both teams, Stoll doesn't make much sense for SJ but makes the most sense from LA. Frolov makes the more sense from SJ but doesn't give them as much cap space as they would want. Moller makes the most sense for SJ, but the least for LA because of the cap space issues it would create for LA. (Stoll, Frolov, Moller etc all would need sweetened, but I'm not debating that).

So for SJ to want to do this they would have to get back a deal that provides them with cap space and a quality winger to replace Marleau.

For LA to do this they would have to move a contract, Kings fans would prefer Stoll, and additionally doing so would open up a roster spot and cap room for Marleau.

Personally I would think the Kings could A. find a taker for Stoll or B. Frolov, or C include Frolov, if they wanted to land Marleau. They have a lot of young resources they could use to make such a move without emptying the cupboard.

I would think SJ could do this as well if they get a top six winger to replace Marleau and utilize the capspace to keep the rest of the team together for the next few years. The challenge for SJ is to get that capspace without losing ground.

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07-08-2009, 03:02 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Dean Lombardi of all people knows from both sides what Patrick Marleau is capable of. He knows how flexible he is and with the way the Kings are setup, Marleau in would help them a lot. If you want him to be on the wing, he'd be best on the top line but if you want to spread the offensive wealth then he can play and produce a 70 point season from the 2nd line as well. If we assume my proposal of Frolov, Simmonds, a 2nd and a 4th the Kings top two lines can be Marleau-Kopitar-Brown and Smyth-Moller/Stoll-Williams. Not a bad setup at all offensively. Then again, the Kings don't really need him either but he is an upgrade on every winger right now on the Kings offensively. The good thing about Marleau is that he would allow the Kings flexibility in special teams because he can center a PK line to give other skill players a rest.



haha...next time you have a thought, just let it go.



Uh, except the Sharks have absolutely no need or desire to get Stoll because he doesn't fill a vacant spot on the Sharks roster.



You can't consider it fair when the roster players being returned fill absolutely no need. If the Sharks want to dump Marleau, they can at least find a team that can return players that will fill roster spots they need to have filled. Jarret Stoll, for the fiftieth time, does not fill any roster spot on the Sharks. Is it so much to ask to expect people to at the least research what roster spots need to be filled before making a proposal? The Sharks need 3rd and 4th line wingers, a 4th line center, and a top six winger ONLY if and when one is dealt.

I don't see how a player that, even at his worst is a 0.89 point per game player in the 2nd line center role, is overpaid for that role. He's shown the ability to produce 75-85 points on the 2nd line and 6.3 is overpaid?

So in the end, San Jose addresses zero roster issues and actually opens up yet another roster issue by trading its leading goal scorer and save a grand total of 2.7 million dollars in cap space. The Sharks can accomplish saving 3 million in cap space w/o opening up a critical roster issue by sending Jonathan Cheechoo to Worcester.

Patrick Marleau is not a salary dump so if you're going to ask any team for their leading goal scorer, you can expect to at least address one of their needs on their roster and not just toss around some redundant player back because he makes less.
Trevor Lewis, Ted Purcell, a 4th??? Not so sure but would that work?
Purcell: Has Good hands and speed. When he is with good players on 1st 2nd line he WILL produce.

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07-08-2009, 03:04 PM
  #45
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or we can wait till offseason and get Patrick Marleau without giving up anything

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07-08-2009, 03:06 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
2: LA has tons of cap space
This is a myth that has to be debunked. After resigning Jack Johnson, Ted Purcell, plus one more roster player added (say Trevor Lewis) to make 23 total, we will be pushing 53-54 million this season. It will be higher if Hickey makes the roster.

I know a lot of Kings fans would not agree with me, and I don't know if San Jose would do this, but I would give up a first round pick in 2010, Oscar Moeller, and a choice of Wayne Simmonds or Trevor Lewis for Patrick Marleau if we could sign him to a couple of more years. Just not sure we could make it work under the cap, especially having to sign Frolov after this year. Having Kopitar and Marleau up the middle, with Smyth, Brown, Frolov, and Williams on the wings for the next two to three years would be a heck of a top six, thats for sure. All that, plus Stoll and Zues on third line. Can you say quality. I knew you could. Not sure San Jose would trade a top asset to a division rival either. But Lombardi sure likes his former players, and you are nuts Kings fans if you don't want a top of the line forward.


Last edited by regulate: 07-08-2009 at 03:16 PM.
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07-08-2009, 03:08 PM
  #47
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If there was going to be a deal, I'd expect something like:

Moller, Bernier + 1st & 2nd for Marleau

That make's more sense, Sharks' gets some pick's, a backup goalie they may have more confidence in then Greiss, and a promising young player. Plus a bunch of cap space.

That said, i still wouldn't do it. But it's close to reality.

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07-08-2009, 03:12 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Kingjordan View Post
or we can wait till offseason and get Patrick Marleau without giving up anything
I think in a salary cap world it is sometimes just as good to give up something to get it done than to give up nothing and have cap issues. In this situation, the Kings could wait to get Marleau in the offseason but then they have to deal with a bidding war that could drive up the price. In addition, they would probably have to pass on signing Frolov in order to make a play for Marleau (cap space). In the end it might be cheaper to trade Frolov in a deal for Marleau and get a head start on signing him than waiting and taking your chances in the offseason.

I'm not saying I want Frolov traded. Just using him as an example because I think he makes the most sense in a deal based on trying to land Marleau.

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07-08-2009, 03:20 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
If there was going to be a deal, I'd expect something like:

Moller, Bernier + 1st & 2nd for Marleau

That make's more sense, Sharks' gets some pick's, a backup goalie they may have more confidence in then Greiss, and a promising young player. Plus a bunch of cap space.

That said, i still wouldn't do it. But it's close to reality.

That is a ridiculus trade from LA's perspective. Only one DL does that for is Kovalchuk.

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Old
07-08-2009, 03:22 PM
  #50
Kingjordan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
If there was going to be a deal, I'd expect something like:

Moller, Bernier + 1st & 2nd for Marleau

That make's more sense, Sharks' gets some pick's, a backup goalie they may have more confidence in then Greiss, and a promising young player. Plus a bunch of cap space.

That said, i still wouldn't do it. But it's close to reality.

what are you smokin?? Must be really good

Moller, Bernier + 1st & 2nd for Marleau is that a joke??

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