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Kronwall to Vancouver

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Old
07-08-2009, 02:18 PM
  #51
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If Holland is this poster and is really offering Kronwall for guys like Raymond, Hansen, Grabner and Wellwood Gillis would have to be slow not to take the deal.

I could not imagine that happening. Kronwall is a great all round defencemen on an even better contract.

I would imagine it would take something really special to get him out of Detroit, especially considering the age of Lidstrom.

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07-08-2009, 02:18 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Detroit has 2 needs only one of which would be addressed by trading a high end defensemen.

1. A cheap Top 6 scoring Winger.2. A rugged Cheap bottom 6 Winger (preferably a vet). Think Dallas Drake

Obviously Kesler nor Hodgson fill either of those roles. All Detroit's Centers are fairly competent wingers so I didn't wanna assume it was a deal breaker.

Dats,Zets, Filppulla, Helm, Draper are likely our current centers. Though we could include abdlekader, Franzen(primary winger), Cleary(primary winger) as well. Detroit tends to play 2 centers on every line and the two forwards rotate roles based on positioning.
Kesler fits that bill. He's at 1.75m this year, will get a raise next year but he's cheap this year. And once Sundin came to Vancouver he played on the 2nd line as a winger and did really well offensively in that role.

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07-08-2009, 02:21 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Pacem View Post
They have potential thats it, they have not done anything. And Kronwall is a #3 D-man because he has Lidstrom and Rafalski in front of him.

Hanson is 23 and has played 60 NHL games. Raymond is 24 and has a career high of 11 goals. And you expect to get a 28 year old D-man in the middle of his prime who's put up more points in 1 season than either forward? Its insane.

Calgary has Moss and Boyd(career high 11g in 4th line duty) who have potential, and Moss has actually hit 20 goals(IE: done something in the NHL other than show promise) in a season and i'm not biased enough to believe either one of them in a package would land Calgary Kronwall.

I'd also like to add. I have very good knowledge of the Canucks and have watched more Canucks games over the years then any team... including Calgary. I'm a huge hockey fan, I just happen to be stuck in the Vancouver hockey market. I'm very intune with the Canucks as a team and have been for years.
Good to see some non-Wing and non-Nuck fans with their opinions on here.

Kronwall put up more points in the regular season than both players combined, that's right combined. Makes no sense for Detroit. I would rather see them fish for a cheapish UFA (eg. Kotalik) and/or give Ville Leino a chance than move Kronwall for that.


Like I said before, offer that same deal for Kaberle and see what the results would be. Wouldn't be pretty.

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07-08-2009, 02:21 PM
  #54
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kronwall will not be moved. he is lidstroms successor

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07-08-2009, 02:23 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
So one really good playoff run + one really good season = legit top pairing defenseman and borderline franchise player?
I used borderline franchise player prospectively and tentatively rather than as a statement of fact (clearly you cant prove that in such a short career).
Legit top pairing guy I declared as a fact.Time will tell. He put up pretty decent numbers in 07 and 08 for being on a second pairing with pretty bad talent. In 09 he put up first pair numbers from the second pair. There is an inference (one people who watch him recognize) that if he had top pair minutes in 07 and 08 he would have put up top pair points (ie 50+). This same argument applies that in 09 he put up 51 points... on the top pair it would have been even higher... making him better than people predict. OFC the counterbalance is that he also played with 1st line talent on the second pair in 09. And the final negative factor as I have already mentioned is his shot leaves something to be desired and his goal totals reflect that.

I wont argue it any more than I have. Time will be the ultimate judge.

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07-08-2009, 02:29 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
So one really good playoff run + one really good season = legit top pairing defenseman and borderline franchise player?
I don't think he's a franchise player but he's a player that won't come cheap in a trade.

-28 years old.
-Signed at 3 million a year for 3 years (including this upcoming season)
-Scored 51 points this year which was 11th in defenceman scoring.
-Had a good playoff run this year and a great one the year before hitting guys all over and leading Detroit defence in scoring.

What has Hansen or Raymond done? Yes, they have potential but i'd rather have the 28 year old d-man in his prime, under a good contract who has proven he can perform in the playoffs. If you started a poll, Hansen/Raymond or Kronwall it would be pretty lopsided.

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07-08-2009, 02:29 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacem View Post
Kesler fits that bill. He's at 1.75m this year, will get a raise next year but he's cheap this year. And once Sundin came to Vancouver he played on the 2nd line as a winger and did really well offensively in that role.
Thats what I assumed but I honestly haven't seen him play... I didnt feel like getting flamed for a presumption so I kept it close to the chest.

Dats Filpulla Franzen
Zets Kesler Cleary

Is a pretty nice top 6. Even nicer when you consider that Kesler or Filp can center the third line and Holmstrom/leino could be bumped into the top 6.

(3 decent scoring lines)
Dats Kesler Holmstrom
Zets Franzen Cleary
Filp Leino Abdlekader/Helm
Draper Maltby Abdlekader/Helm

Is a pretty nice set of forwards and our Defense is still pretty sharp

Lids Stuart
Ericsson Rafi
Lilja/Lebda/Meech/Kindl/Kolosov/Janik (2 of)


Last edited by solo16: 07-08-2009 at 02:36 PM.
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Old
07-08-2009, 02:29 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by New Jersey Devils View Post
kronwall will not be moved. he is lidstroms successor
Thats cool, he already has broken a record of Lidstrom's already in his short career, games missed due to injury. Surprised the only games he missed last season was just from the flu, well if NK stays healthy he's a heck of player, I think he just has to lay off the body checks now.
If not the wings will share the same concerns we have with glass man Salo.

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07-08-2009, 02:30 PM
  #59
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Wellwood for Kronwall?

Yeah, ok... sure, you can have him.


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07-08-2009, 02:31 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
If Holland is this poster and is really offering Kronwall for guys like Raymond, Hansen, Grabner and Wellwood Gillis would have to be slow not to take the deal.

I could not imagine that happening. Kronwall is a great all round defencemen on an even better contract.

I would imagine it would take something really special to get him out of Detroit, especially considering the age of Lidstrom.
no kidding... canuck fans overvaluing their players big time... Kronwall would easily be the best Canucks D man imo..

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07-08-2009, 02:42 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Theron View Post
no kidding... canuck fans overvaluing their players big time... Kronwall would easily be the best Canucks D man imo..
Don't generalize please, maybe on a rebuilding team a team accepts one of those roster players, a prospect and draft pick for a player like NK, but for a powerhouse team like Detroit, that aint gonna cut it, any sensible fan should know that, a deal involving Kesler for NK is more reasonable for the Wings team.
The only concern is NK's health.

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07-08-2009, 02:44 PM
  #62
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The only way Detroit is going to rade Kronwall is if its for Kesler, which I think is more or less a fair trade. Both are complete players for their position, key players on their respective teams, and are signed to decent contracts. If Vancouver doesn't want to flip Kesler for Kronwall, then its no deal, simple as that. Detroit doesn't need quantity. They dont need guys like Hansen and Raymond when they have guys like Abdelkader, Helm, and Leino who are equally as cheap.

And to the OP, the very reason that Detroit has cap issues makes moving Kronwall unlikely. If the Wings were so desperate to move a Dman, they'd ask Stuart and his 3.75M to waive his NTC.

Ranking 11th in scoring among Dmen, yet ranking 63rd in PPTOI (2:55 per) among Dmen is a bit of an accolade. He could be a 60 point Dman easily in Vancouver, getting 1st unit PPTOI at 4 minutes a game like Bieksa pulls.

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07-08-2009, 02:46 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoHo777 View Post
Thats cool, he already has broken a record of Lidstrom's already in his short career, games missed due to injury. Surprised the only games he missed last season was just from the flu, well if NK stays healthy he's a heck of player, I think he just has to lay off the body checks now.
If not the wings will share the same concerns we have with glass man Salo.
Surprisingly, most of his injuries have been a fluke. Hurting his knee in a pre-game skate in LA(?) a few years back. Got his skate caught in a rut. Catching Svatos' skate in the nose after he hit him, fluky.

I'd do Kesler for Kronwall. Hodgson isn't getting moved. Raymond, Grabner, Hansen, whatever, I wouldn't do. Yes they have potential, maybe even great potential, but Detroit doesn't need potential in a trade with Kronwall. They need a sure thing.

If this thread was the other way around, and Detroit was offering Leino/Axelsson/Emmerton/Hudler for Edler, would Vancouver fans say yes? I sure hope they wouldn't.

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07-08-2009, 04:01 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
So one really good playoff run + one really good season = legit top pairing defenseman and borderline franchise player?
Is that not almost the same as why Hodgson a potential franchise centre? What he will do in the future not his present credentials.

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07-08-2009, 04:05 PM
  #65
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Has anyone actually come up with want Detroit wants? It's no secret Vancouver wants a puck-moving defenceman (assuming this is what Kronwall is, I'm not so sure as I haven't seen much of him), but what is Detroit looking for? Seriously.

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07-08-2009, 04:12 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
Has anyone actually come up with want Detroit wants? It's no secret Vancouver wants a puck-moving defenceman (assuming this is what Kronwall is, I'm not so sure as I haven't seen much of him), but what is Detroit looking for? Seriously.
Kesler. Thats it. If its only Kronwall going to Vancouver, then its only Kesler going to Detroit.

And yes, Kronwall is definitely a puck-moving Dman. Thats one of his greatest assets.

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07-08-2009, 04:13 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
Has anyone actually come up with want Detroit wants? It's no secret Vancouver wants a puck-moving defenceman (assuming this is what Kronwall is, I'm not so sure as I haven't seen much of him), but what is Detroit looking for? Seriously.
Its already in the thread but.

1. Cheap top 6 scoring winger (fairly young)
2. Cheap bottom 6 rugged winger (preferably vet) ala dallas drake
3. Blue chip offensive defensemen prospects (2yrs+ from being ready for the NHL)*we can never have enough of these. Otherwise we have all the prospects we need at every position and would only consider really quality prospects/gamebreakers. Don't need future picks for current talent because our current team is starting to get a bit thin.

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07-08-2009, 04:17 PM
  #68
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We'll give you Stuart and Kronwall for Bieksa and Kesler. Kthanks.

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07-08-2009, 04:20 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
Is that not almost the same as why Hodgson a potential franchise centre? What he will do in the future not his present credentials.

Kronwall has many seasons under his belt, and had one really good season. Hodgson meanwhile is not even in the NHL... So your comparison makes no sense?

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07-08-2009, 04:22 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeon View Post
Has anyone actually come up with want Detroit wants? It's no secret Vancouver wants a puck-moving defenceman (assuming this is what Kronwall is, I'm not so sure as I haven't seen much of him), but what is Detroit looking for? Seriously.
Hes a top 10 puck mover arguably top 5 imo.

Neidemeyer, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Campbell, Boyle are the type of guys I consider him with in regards to that skill.

His fault is he has the worst shot out of those guys. He is a better puck mover than quite a few of the big name defensemen, but he is not a better all around defensemen than them.
Guys like Pronger, Chara, etc.

If you were to take Lidstrom and Campbell and find the mid point between the two (above average defense but not great) and give him the shot of Brad Stuart you'd have Nik Kronwall as a all round guy.

Elite passing
Elite Puck handling
Elite vision
Fast
Hits big
Deke's alot (has the agility of an elite forward) never understood why he plays like this but he does.
Shoots alot but the shots are always inaccurate.
Middle size
Above average positioning (when focused, if he is pinching/hitting his positioning is obviously a bit worse)
Can QB a powerplay from the point or run it off the boards like a forward
Can PK

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07-08-2009, 04:28 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
Kronwall has many seasons under his belt, and had one really good season. Hodgson meanwhile is not even in the NHL... So your comparison makes no sense?
...And his one "really good" season came when he was the 3rd Dman on his team overall, and the 3rd PPQB on his team, getting less than 3 minutes per game on the PP. Thats going to happen when you're teammates are Brian Rafalski and Niklas Lidstrom.

Also, Kronwall has one of the best contracts in the NHL for a Top 25 Dman in the midst of his prime.

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07-08-2009, 04:32 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
We'll give you Stuart and Kronwall for Bieksa and Kesler. Kthanks.

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07-08-2009, 04:35 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHodgson View Post
Kronwall has many seasons under his belt, and had one really good season. Hodgson meanwhile is not even in the NHL... So your comparison makes no sense?
Regardless, he's a top 20 dman on a bargain contract and has established himself as a top pairing guy. Kronwall is more likely to continue to be a top pairing defender than Hodgson is to become a franchise player.

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07-08-2009, 04:41 PM
  #74
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As a Vancouver fan, I trade Hansen and Welly for Kronwall in an instant.... and I like both of them. Definitely not enough for Detroit.

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07-08-2009, 04:42 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Cap hit aside as my previous statement was wrong... I think you are undervaluing Kronwall.

Kesler and Hodgson are both very valuable players...

But Kronwall is a legit top pairing guy who is worth easily low 5M range a year. If we base it on Campbell (yes i know its wrong) hes worth 8M as hes clearly better imo. Signed at a 3M cap hit (sub market value).

Kronwall had over 50 Points on the 2nd pair/ 2nd powerplay unit... Thats pretty good. He is a Powerplay quarterback, has a great first pass, handles the puck like only elite forwards can and throws big hits. He is above average defensively. Guys like that are borderline franchise players. He is in reality worth the same or more than any forward in the league that is not a franchise player. As far as prospects go he might just be good enough to snag a fringe franchise guy. Hodgson imo is a fringe franchise guy. He could be a franchise player or he could just be a very good top 6 guy.

Kronwall= Kesler (imo kronwall is worth slightly more but its really irrelevant because at that level the players are essentially equal value anything else would just be a throw in)

Kronwall= Hodgson (Hodgson has a bit more high end potential but obviously a bit more risk)

You dont get a player like Kronwall for spare parts. So yes I would not open the offer from the Canucks unless one of those two names were in it. You might spark Hollands interest if you offered (two first rounders) or a 1st+ 2nd+ Prospect.

Look at the offers for Kaberle then aim upwards and you got Kronwall's value. He has a better cap hit and more potential than Kaberle. I think current quality is about a wash maybe slight edge to kaberle due to playing time more than anything else.
Fair enough. Value is subjective. Fact of the matter is Kesler won MVP of the Canucks last season, was a selke candidate, scored 26 goals, has captain written all over him, and is a 1.75mil cap hit with RFA at the end. He is worth SO much more to the Canucks than a top pairing defenseman right now. He'd be a TOUGH loss. If it takes Hodgson or Kesler to start the talks then we just aren't good trading partners.

I'm not taking a thing away from Kronwall. I think he's great and IS what we need but just not at the expense of those guys. We'd rather look for cheaper options or trade picks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pacem View Post
They have potential thats it, they have not done anything. And Kronwall is a #3 D-man because he has Lidstrom and Rafalski in front of him.

Hanson is 23 and has played 60 NHL games. Raymond is 24 and has a career high of 11 goals. And you expect to get a 28 year old D-man in the middle of his prime who's put up more points in 1 season than either forward? Its insane.

Calgary has Moss and Boyd(career high 11g in 4th line duty) who have potential, and Moss has actually hit 20 goals(IE: done something in the NHL other than show promise) in a season and i'm not biased enough to believe either one of them in a package would land Calgary Kronwall.

I'd also like to add. I have very good knowledge of the Canucks and have watched more Canucks games over the years then any team... including Calgary. I'm a huge hockey fan, I just happen to be stuck in the Vancouver hockey market. I'm very intune with the Canucks as a team and have been for years.
Hansen as a rookie last season scored 22 pts in 55 games from 3rd and 4th line duties. He also has a big frame (6'1 200+lbs) and is VERY fast. That's kinda rare. I don't understand why this kid flys under the radar?

Anyways. Hansen, Grabner, and a 1st wouldn't be terrible value wise if they wanted to trade him. But, they could likely get something more attractive and more than Van could offer. Again, trade wont work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Detroit has 2 needs only one of which would be addressed by trading a high end defensemen.

1. A cheap Top 6 scoring Winger.
2. A rugged Cheap bottom 6 Winger (preferably a vet). Think Dallas Drake

Obviously Kesler nor Hodgson fill either of those roles. All Detroit's Centers are fairly competent wingers so I didn't wanna assume it was a deal breaker.

Dats,Zets, Filppulla, Helm, Draper are likely our current centers. Though we could include abdlekader, Franzen(primary winger), Cleary(primary winger) as well. Detroit tends to play 2 centers on every line and the two forwards rotate roles based on positioning.
Doesn't Kesler fill either? Kesler played right wing last season in the top 6. He also played in a defensive role the first part. 1.75mil, but yet, he will be due for a raise next year. With Lidstrom likely retiring tho I don't think it would matter.

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