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SJ - Ott - Marleau and Heater

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Old
07-10-2009, 12:06 PM
  #51
Wondercarrot
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Heatley's disgusting contract does not fit into these plans.
out of curiosity, what makes Heatley's contract disgusting?
is this just a general dislike of athletes who make a ton of money or something else?

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07-10-2009, 12:12 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
out of curiosity, what makes Heatley's contract disgusting?
is this just a general dislike of athletes who make a ton of money or something else?
7.5m cap hit over the next 5 years for a malcontent? The Sharks have one of those, and at least JT doesn't whine, though disappearing is pretty bad.

Try not to get hung up on the word disgusting and read what I wrote. You'd find your post superfluous.

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07-10-2009, 12:17 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Mr.Bridge View Post
No. Go away. Consolidating salary does not make sense for the Sharks.They have enough holes as it is. Whether the cap goes down or not in the coming years, San Jose needs to have its money tied up in more players, not less. Heatley's disgusting contract does not fit into these plans.
Disgusting contract? In the last 4 years, Heatley's scored 180 goals and that's with last year being an off year. Marleau and Michalek combined have only scored 40 more in those 4 years, with career years for both of them last year. They make a combined 10.6 million. You don't think that extra 3 million dollars could get you a player that scores 20 goals season to go along with Heatley? WHo knows how many goals a motivated Heatley can socre with Thornton setting him up, along with Boyle, Blake, Vlassic and Erhoff getting him the puck up the ice.

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07-10-2009, 12:28 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Sexytime Explosion View Post
Disgusting contract? In the last 4 years, Heatley's scored 180 goals and that's with last year being an off year. Marleau and Michalek combined have only scored 40 more in those 4 years, with career years for both of them last year. They make a combined 10.6 million. You don't think that extra 3 million dollars could get you a player that scores 20 goals season to go along with Heatley? WHo knows how many goals a motivated Heatley can socre with Thornton setting him up, along with Boyle, Blake, Vlassic and Erhoff getting him the puck up the ice.
dont forget he can do that in half the ice time compared to Marleau + Mihalek

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07-10-2009, 12:46 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Sexytime Explosion View Post
Disgusting contract? In the last 4 years, Heatley's scored 180 goals and that's with last year being an off year. Marleau and Michalek combined have only scored 40 more in those 4 years, with career years for both of them last year. They make a combined 10.6 million. You don't think that extra 3 million dollars could get you a player that scores 20 goals season to go along with Heatley? WHo knows how many goals a motivated Heatley can socre with Thornton setting him up, along with Boyle, Blake, Vlassic and Erhoff getting him the puck up the ice.
"motivated" Heatley. Now you're making assumptions on his motivation. Brilliant. The Sharks' problems last year were not scoring goals, they scored oodles. Folding in the playoffs like a second hand tent, however, was the Sharks m.o. I don't see Heatley (even if he wants to go to SJ) providing the Messier-like leadership, Stevens-like grit, and Yzerman-like heart that the Sharks need. Contract is disgusting, and will be an albatross if the economy forces the cap down. The last thing San Jose wants is to be like Tampa before they moved Richards. Three ginormous contracts eating up cap space. The further downside is the Sharks would likely only have two ginormities but the same constraints.

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Old
07-10-2009, 12:53 PM
  #56
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Sens fans, I like you, lets make a pact.

No more Heatley deals. Deal?

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07-10-2009, 01:32 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Mr.Bridge View Post
"motivated" Heatley. Now you're making assumptions on his motivation. Brilliant. The Sharks' problems last year were not scoring goals, they scored oodles. Folding in the playoffs like a second hand tent, however, was the Sharks m.o. I don't see Heatley (even if he wants to go to SJ) providing the Messier-like leadership, Stevens-like grit, and Yzerman-like heart that the Sharks need. Contract is disgusting, and will be an albatross if the economy forces the cap down. The last thing San Jose wants is to be like Tampa before they moved Richards. Three ginormous contracts eating up cap space. The further downside is the Sharks would likely only have two ginormities but the same constraints.
You'd have to be a complete moron not to think he would be motivated to go to a new team that was on his list of teams to go to. Not much an assumption really.

Wow...SJ and every other team out there would like that type of player, talk about living in fantasy land! So who is this magical player SJ will acquire? If you want to compare playoff performance of Heatley, Marleau and Thornton, only one of the three is a point a game player in the playoffs, the others are at approximately .68. Guess which one?

Oh, you mean like Crosby (8.7 mil), Malkin (8.7) and Gonchar (5 mil) or Zetterberg (6.1), Datisuk (6.7), Rafalski (6) and Lidstrom (7.5)? Ya, it would be terrible to have multiple elite players under contract.


Last edited by Pancakes Pancakes: 07-10-2009 at 01:38 PM.
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Old
07-10-2009, 02:39 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Sexytime Explosion View Post
You'd have to be a complete moron not to think he would be motivated to go to a new team that was on his list of teams to go to. Not much an assumption really.

Wow...SJ and every other team out there would like that type of player, talk about living in fantasy land! So who is this magical player SJ will acquire? If you want to compare playoff performance of Heatley, Marleau and Thornton, only one of the three is a point a game player in the playoffs, the others are at approximately .68. Guess which one?

Oh, you mean like Crosby (8.7 mil), Malkin (8.7) and Gonchar (5 mil) or Zetterberg (6.1), Datisuk (6.7), Rafalski (6) and Lidstrom (7.5)? Ya, it would be terrible to have multiple elite players under contract.

Lol!
Heatley has less than half the playoff games as Thornton and 1/3 as many as Marleau, small wonder his ppg is better. Don't spout at me about points and not address the more important issue of $ I don't know the organisations of Pitt or Detroit very well, I do know the Sharks org has an internal cap they've tried to keep the team to and went outside of for last season. I know that Detroit has the magic touch of finding guys that fill out the 3rd and 4th lines with more polish than the Sharks bottom 6, and have bottom pairing defensemen who produce like 2m guys yet earn 1/3 the amount. Osgood also makes around 35% of Nabby's contract, yet performs when needed. Looking at their numbers, Holmstrom is due for a raise, though it will be modest by league standards, as Holland will work his magic on him and get a great rate. So, Detroit is a poor example.

The Penguins are fast becoming a parallel of Detroit's building process. Blessed with Crosby and Malkin in the forwards, they've managed to secure players that go balls-out on the cheap. After the top two, salaries are cut in half with Staal, 37.5% (roughly) with Kunitz, and more than 1/4'd for Guerin. The current Sharks make-up has too much money going to players who aren't achieving their amounts. Granted, Wilson gave them an approximate market value, but an expensive D and underperforming players making a lot of money do not cap space make.

Interestingly, Freibug (Heatley's city of birth) is an expensive tourist spot in Germany, they even have their own webcam, that you can control!!

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Old
07-10-2009, 03:13 PM
  #59
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absolutely no way you pry two top six forwards out of san jose for one, even a very good one (unless you consider Cheechoo a top six forward ).

sharks have no one to fill that hole. i doubt torrey mitchell or jamie mcginn are ready to be on a scoring line. it's not out of the realm of possibility that a defenseman gets moved for a top six wing: Ehrhoff for someone making peanuts? who can even make that move, columbus with voracek/brassard? NJ for bergfors/clarkson+?

but as far as the proposal at hand (marleau and michalek for heatley), i think that's a no from san jose even if they agreed it was fair value (which i don't) just because of roster spots.

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07-11-2009, 10:44 AM
  #60
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It seems like the Sens and the Sharks fans don't make good trading partners... at least there is still hope with Sharks GM...

If you don't want to part with Marleau for "only" Dany Heatley, then keep him lol

No way Bryan Murray trades Dany ****ing Heatley for "only" Patrick Marleau and his whoooping 1 year @ 6.3M$ left on his contract though...

IMO

Heatley + Schubert + Donovan (9,0)

for

Marleau + Erhoff (9,4) + Couture + conditional pick (if Marleau doesn't re-sign with the Sens)

makes the most sense

3 roster players for 2, so the Sharks get one more body and even save 0,4 with that move. They need cheap roster players

Heatley-Thornton-Setoguchi (that's killer seriously)
Michalek-Pavelski-Clowe (still a very good 2nd line)
McGuinn-???-Cheechoo (problems starts here)
Shelly-???-Donovan

Boyle-Blake
Vlasic-Murray
Lukowich-Huskins
Schubert

Nabokov
Greiss

1,35M$ left. Sharks would still need to get rid of Cheechoo and use that money to get good defensive forwards.

And it would give us a good line-up too, even if we lose Heatley :

Foligno-Spezza-Alfredsson
Regin-Marleau-Kovalev
Kelly-Fisher-Shannon
Ruutu-Winchester-Neil
Bass

Kuba-Erhoff
Phillips-Volchenkov
Lee-Campoli
Picard

Leclaire
Elliott

If the Sens get rid of Smith salary and sign Elliott for 800 000$, they would still have 331 000$ of cap space. Not a lot but we'll probably need to trade Kelly too...


Last edited by Xspyrit: 07-11-2009 at 11:04 AM.
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Old
07-11-2009, 10:55 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
It seems like the Sens and the Sharks fans don't make good trading partners... at least there is still hope with Sharks GM...

If you don't want to part with Marleau for "only" Dany Heatley, then keep him lol

No way Bryan Murray trades Dany ****ing Heatley for "only" Patrick Marleau and his whoooping 1 year @ 6.3M$ left on his contract though...
BAHURHAHHRHUR. I didn't realise Brian Murray was on these boards. Maybe you left the 'fans' part out, 'unintentionally.' The Sharks don't want Dany Heatley, not at his contract, not for the remaining years it has on it with the uncertain economic climate and its effect on the cap. San Jose was allowed to go outside the internal cap last season, which failed miserably when it mattered. SVSE wants the the team to be a profitable business, and as the economy ebbs, so does the Sharks' spending

The more you talk the more it should be noted you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know the Sharks' needs/holes/constraints and therefore shouldn't comment on them with any kind of factual base to draw upon.

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07-11-2009, 11:05 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Heatley + Schubert + Donovan (9,0)

for

Marleau + Erhoff (9,4) + Couture + conditional pick (if Marleau doesn't re-sign with the Sens)

makes the most sense
... perhaps in your fantasy world. Meanwhile, in the real world San Jose politely declines your 'sensible' offer and suggests you try not looking at contract lengths and caps for a second and looks at the value (and potential value) of those players to their respective teams...

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07-11-2009, 11:46 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Mr.Bridge View Post
BAHURHAHHRHUR. I didn't realise Brian Murray was on these boards. Maybe you left the 'fans' part out, 'unintentionally.' The Sharks don't want Dany Heatley, not at his contract, not for the remaining years it has on it with the uncertain economic climate and its effect on the cap. San Jose was allowed to go outside the internal cap last season, which failed miserably when it mattered. SVSE wants the the team to be a profitable business, and as the economy ebbs, so does the Sharks' spending

The more you talk the more it should be noted you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know the Sharks' needs/holes/constraints and therefore shouldn't comment on them with any kind of factual base to draw upon.
Did you read all my post at least? I'm not "attacking the Sharks" at all to bring that kind of attitude in you... And you probably meant Sharks fans don't want Heatley? Did the GM say he wouldn't?

Of course, i dunno the exact needs/holes/constraints of the Sharks... i can't follow 30 NHL teams closely. Do you?

I would like to remind you (like i have to do regulary around these boards) that HF boards is a message board for 30 fanbases of NHL hockey teams. All the talk here (particulary in this section) is all about speculation. There's no truth or exact science to it. After thinking of that, i wonder what you post brings to the discussion. Are you telling other fanbases to mind their own business? Heatley to the Sharks has been rumored, so you're telling me my proposal makes no sense? Personnally, i'd rather take Cogliano, Penner and Smid if that damn Heatley would waive his NTC...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcWoo View Post
... perhaps in your fantasy world. Meanwhile, in the real world San Jose politely declines your 'sensible' offer and suggests you try not looking at contract lengths and caps for a second and looks at the value (and potential value) of those players to their respective teams...
So, you're telling me that Marleau has more value than Heatley on the ice???


PS : IMO = In My Opinion


Last edited by The Nemesis: 07-11-2009 at 01:06 PM. Reason: trolling comment (this includes fanbase generalizations)
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Old
07-11-2009, 12:03 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Did you read all my post at least? I'm not "attacking the Sharks" at all to bring that kind of attitude in you... And you probably meant Sharks fans don't want Heatley? Did the GM say he wouldn't?

Of course, i dunno the exact needs/holes/constraints of the Sharks... i can't follow 30 NHL teams closely. Do you?

I would like to remind you (like i have to do regulary around these boards) that HF boards is a message board for 30 fanbases of NHL hockey teams. All the talk here (particulary in this section) is all about speculation. There's no truth or exact science to it. After thinking of that, i wonder what you post brings to the discussion. Are you telling other fanbases to mind their own business? Heatley to the Sharks has been rumored, so you're telling me my proposal makes no sense? Personnally, i'd rather take Cogliano, Penner and Smid if that damn Heatley would waive his NTC...



So, you're telling me that Marleau has more value than Heatley on the ice???


PS : IMO = In My Opinion
To respond to your first response, it doesn't make sense for the Sharks. Christian Ehrhoff is a top four blue liner on this team and trading him creates a humongous hole that isn't going to be filled really. Douglas Murray is not a top four blue liner on a good team. He's still got a lot of growing to do before he can do that without a lot of time to do it.

To your second response, I don't get this misconception of yours that Dany Heatley has more value than Marleau. They're even. Just because Heatley has spectacular offensive numbers doesn't mean he's better or has more value than Marleau who is a supremely better two-way player than Heatley. The only reason you are perceiving yourself to being attacked is because you're making assumptions about this team and certain players w/o any sort of knowledge about them at all and when people try to tell you, you simply ignore it.

There are rumors about Dany Heatley to the Sharks and making proposals is fine but when someone tells you it doesn't make sense, you can't justify a senseless trade by saying it's speculation so it makes sense...it doesn't work that way.

Heatley to the Sharks will not make sense if there's Vlasic or Ehrhoff involved. That's just the bottom line. You want to go from there, go for it. But this isn't the first time you've had to be told that Ehrhoff or Vlasic is a deal breaker.


Last edited by The Nemesis: 07-11-2009 at 01:06 PM. Reason: quote edit
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Old
07-11-2009, 12:30 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Did you read all my post at least? I'm not "attacking the Sharks" at all to bring that kind of attitude in you... And you probably meant Sharks fans don't want Heatley? Did the GM say he wouldn't?
I was amused that you felt the need to clarify that in general, Sharks fans don't want Heatley and that there was still 'hope' for DW, yet no mention of Sens fans, as though Murray himself trolls these boards! It's called sarcasm.

Quote:
Of course, i dunno the exact needs/holes/constraints of the Sharks... i can't follow 30 NHL teams closely. Do you?

I would like to remind you (like i have to do regulary around these boards) that HF boards is a message board for 30 fanbases of NHL hockey teams. All the talk here (particulary in this section) is all about speculation. There's no truth or exact science to it. After thinking of that, i wonder what you post brings to the discussion. Are you telling other fanbases to mind their own business? Heatley to the Sharks has been rumored, so you're telling me my proposal makes no sense? Personnally, i'd rather take Cogliano, Penner and Smid if that damn Heatley would waive his NTC...
No, I don't. I don't comment on them for a reason. Maybe I read a bit, maybe I learn a bit. I don't jump in and profess knowledge of players and such, for a reason. Your reminder doesn't stop other posters (or even yourself really from speculating unintelligently, so its presence is superfluous. You're just another poster here like the rest of us, all in our sandbox, and we have to play nice. Am I telling other fanbases to mind their own business? Kind of. When other fan bases don't take into account what the needs of a team are (repeatedly, as in over and over in multiple threads) and just throw names into the ring, it's pretty much trolling. It doesn't show intelligence.It's pointless. It's throwing sand around. Any user can make an account, wait X days and post drivel to this board. When you make a broad sweeping statement and say something "makes the most sense" how is that any different?

Your proposal makes no sense. If you had read some of the posts from other Sharks posters in this thread or bothered to look at the cap situation, you'd see. San Jose has lots of money tied up in players who aren't currently achieving to their dollar value, but are paid what the market will garner for them in the future. If the cap goes down, they will not be able to sustain multiple `~7ish m superstars. Yet you didn't bother. You don't know what (possibly erroneously) DW invested in getting Couture, and (possibly erroneously) how he is revered by the Sharks fan base, if for no other reason than what assets were given to draft him.(pretty much where I stand, right now, have not seen him play personally, other than a rookie camp or whatever was available to the public). I won't bother to comment on Ehrhoff, it's been said better already.

Yes much of this is speculation, and 'inexact science' is just redundant. Yet, fans living in cities of teams do have more information and care enough to know more than you do. You say you don't follow thirty teams, perhaps asking what the needs are or asking after a player if you're so sensitive to attack would serve you better.


Last edited by The Nemesis: 07-11-2009 at 01:05 PM. Reason: editing of quoted post
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Old
07-11-2009, 01:02 PM
  #66
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Can we seriously stop, both teams make terrible trade partners.

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07-12-2009, 12:18 PM
  #67
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To respond to your first response, it doesn't make sense for the Sharks. Christian Ehrhoff is a top four blue liner on this team and trading him creates a humongous hole that isn't going to be filled really. Douglas Murray is not a top four blue liner on a good team. He's still got a lot of growing to do before he can do that without a lot of time to do it.
So, you guys can't really trade Boyle, Vlasic or Erhoff if i understand? No D-prospect almost ready to fill a big role? I didn't knew. I tought the Sharks could trade one of those D-men, according to some proposals i've seen from Sharks fans themselves. I'm so sorry, really and i mean it... Though, is it that big of a deal?

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To your second response, I don't get this misconception of yours that Dany Heatley has more value than Marleau. They're even. Just because Heatley has spectacular offensive numbers doesn't mean he's better or has more value than Marleau who is a supremely better two-way player than Heatley. The only reason you are perceiving yourself to being attacked is because you're making assumptions about this team and certain players w/o any sort of knowledge about them at all and when people try to tell you, you simply ignore it.
If you forget one sec about Heatley's ****** character, you still don't see the difference between Heatley and Marleau? One is a lock on Team Canada (really really deep) and the other isn't. Look at their career stats :

Heatley : 260 goals, 283 assists for 543 pts in 507 games.
0,51 Goals/game. 1,07 Pts/game

Marleau : 276 goals, 334 assists for 610 pts in 871 games.
0,32 Goals/game. 0,7 Pts/game

Comon... Heatley has 67 less points (only 16 goals less) than Marleau in 364 less games played... that's 4.5 seasons. Do you realize that?

And please don't use the better two-way player argument. There is absolutely no problem with Heatley's defensive game. So, with that logic, what you're saying is that Daymond Langkow or John Madden have more value than Joe Thornton?

Also, do you really think Sens fans or Sens management would trade Dany Heatley if he never asked for a trade? 50 goals scorers don't grow on trees and yes we would like him to make his mea culpa and come back to **** other teams goalies.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
There are rumors about Dany Heatley to the Sharks and making proposals is fine but when someone tells you it doesn't make sense, you can't justify a senseless trade by saying it's speculation so it makes sense...it doesn't work that way.
I'm ignoring anything, if you tell me something (like for the D-men situation), i'll take it in consideration... Of course i'm not a Sharks insider and i dunno about the exact situation of your team. How could anyone have an exact idea of what's happening in 30 NHL teams? But don't worry, i don't only follow the Sens, that's why i pay 360$ a year for NHL Center Ice...

So, seriously if you think it doesn't make sense i just can't help it. You guys think that 1 year of Marleau at 6.3 has the same value than Dany ****ing Heatley for 5 years at 7.5... How come i could convince you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Heatley to the Sharks will not make sense if there's Vlasic or Ehrhoff involved. That's just the bottom line. You want to go from there, go for it. But this isn't the first time you've had to be told that Ehrhoff or Vlasic is a deal breaker.
Ok, i get it. You guys wouldn't give up anything good to get Dany Heatley. I hope it is just because of his reputation because if it is just about hockey, you guys are insane or just in total ignorance.

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07-12-2009, 12:24 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Mr.Bridge View Post
I was amused that you felt the need to clarify that in general, Sharks fans don't want Heatley and that there was still 'hope' for DW, yet no mention of Sens fans, as though Murray himself trolls these boards! It's called sarcasm...
???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
It seems like the Sens and the Sharks fans don't make good trading partners... at least there is still hope with Sharks GM...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bridge View Post
No, I don't. I don't comment on them for a reason. Maybe I read a bit, maybe I learn a bit. I don't jump in and profess knowledge of players and such, for a reason. Your reminder doesn't stop other posters (or even yourself really from speculating unintelligently, so its presence is superfluous. You're just another poster here like the rest of us, all in our sandbox, and we have to play nice. Am I telling other fanbases to mind their own business? Kind of. When other fan bases don't take into account what the needs of a team are (repeatedly, as in over and over in multiple threads) and just throw names into the ring, it's pretty much trolling. It doesn't show intelligence.It's pointless. It's throwing sand around. Any user can make an account, wait X days and post drivel to this board. When you make a broad sweeping statement and say something "makes the most sense" how is that any different?.
So if i say IMO, it makes the most sense, that's not OK? Sorry i didn't know... Do you really think i've read all the other proposal threads to know exactly what the Sharks need or don't, according to their fans? Does it really matter if i post my opinion and try a proposal like everyone did?

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Originally Posted by Mr.Bridge View Post
Your proposal makes no sense. If you had read some of the posts from other Sharks posters in this thread or bothered to look at the cap situation, you'd see. San Jose has lots of money tied up in players who aren't currently achieving to their dollar value, but are paid what the market will garner for them in the future. If the cap goes down, they will not be able to sustain multiple `~7ish m superstars. Yet you didn't bother. You don't know what (possibly erroneously) DW invested in getting Couture, and (possibly erroneously) how he is revered by the Sharks fan base, if for no other reason than what assets were given to draft him.(pretty much where I stand, right now, have not seen him play personally, other than a rookie camp or whatever was available to the public). I won't bother to comment on Ehrhoff, it's been said better already.
Again, with my proposal, you save 400 000$ but gain 1 roster player. How that doesn't help your cap situation?

Makes no sense? You give up Marleau (1 year left on his contract) and Erhoff (2 years left) and a good prospect (Couture) for Heatley (5 years left) and 2 cheap roster players that you guys need to fill holes (well it looks like it when i look at the Sharks cap situation, i don't need to follow the team 24/7 for that...)

OK then, and it seems you guys like Couture a lot. How could i knew? I don't read Sharks board at all. Sens fans too are attached to certain prospects, it's normal. And no i don't remember what the Sharks gave to get the pick for Couture, there is 30 ****ing teams in the NHL...

But at least, you should know that you usually have to give up a roster player, a good prospect and a good pick to get a star player, something that Heatley arguably is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bridge View Post
Yes much of this is speculation, and 'inexact science' is just redundant. Yet, fans living in cities of teams do have more information and care enough to know more than you do. You say you don't follow thirty teams, perhaps asking what the needs are or asking after a player if you're so sensitive to attack would serve you better.
The word proposal should mean it all. Someone makes a proposal and then someone else with more "inside informations" answers back... with good manners

If you are tired to answer those, then just GTFO? What the hell are you thinking? That's ridiculous when you think about it... unless someone put a gun to your head and forced you to come here, then i would understand...

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07-12-2009, 12:31 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by HSF View Post
To Ott

Marleau

To San Jose

Heatley



San jose needs a shake up and Heatley is a proven playoff player, he also would be awesome beside thorton who is a pure playmaker while Heater is a pure sniper

I know Heatley in general is worth more than Marleau and Marleau is one year away from UFA, but i figure this is a risk Ottawa has to take since Heatley doesnt have optimum value atm, since something needs to be done, and with Kovalev on board i would love to have Marleau has his center who is a good two way presence

Maybe the Sens can agree on an extension for Marleau or something.

Foligno - Spezza - Alfie
Fisher - Marleau - Kovalev

Zubov - Regin - Shannon
Ruutu - Kelly - Neil


ex. Jwin

I would be pretty happy with that
Doesn't work for the Sharks cap, and not good enough value to Ottawa.

Marleau, Lukowich, McGinn (7.867)
for
Heatley, Schubert (8.383)

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07-12-2009, 12:43 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
So, you guys can't really trade Boyle, Vlasic or Erhoff if i understand? No D-prospect almost ready to fill a big role? I didn't knew. I tought the Sharks could trade one of those D-men, according to some proposals i've seen from Sharks fans themselves. I'm so sorry, really and i mean it... Though, is it that big of a deal?
Sarcasm aside, no there isn't anyone ready to fill the void and when you're a team with the thought that you're trying to win the Stanley Cup, having a hole in your top four blue line is a substantial deal.

Quote:
If you forget one sec about Heatley's ****** character, you still don't see the difference between Heatley and Marleau? One is a lock on Team Canada (really really deep) and the other isn't. Look at their career stats :

Heatley : 260 goals, 283 assists for 543 pts in 507 games.
0,51 Goals/game. 1,07 Pts/game

Marleau : 276 goals, 334 assists for 610 pts in 871 games.
0,32 Goals/game. 0,7 Pts/game

Comon... Heatley has 67 less points (only 16 goals less) than Marleau in 364 less games played... that's 4.5 seasons. Do you realize that?

And please don't use the better two-way player argument. There is absolutely no problem with Heatley's defensive game. So, with that logic, what you're saying is that Daymond Langkow or John Madden have more value than Joe Thornton?

Also, do you really think Sens fans or Sens management would trade Dany Heatley if he never asked for a trade? 50 goals scorers don't grow on trees and yes we would like him to make his mea culpa and come back to **** other teams goalies.
I didn't mention Heatley's character at all in my responses. I could care less if he asked for a trade or has problems with coaches. All players do and all it is that their problems are made less public. I'm also not saying that there's anything wrong with Heatley's defensive game. All I'm saying is that Marleau's better at it than him and by a very substantial margin. There's a reason why he's a top penalty killer on the Sharks. There's a reason why he's put out there with multiple players and double shifted and put in the big situations defensively for the Sharks. You're all about the numbers, man, and value-wise the numbers don't tell the whole story of a hockey player's worth and that is a concept you fail to understand. As for your heralded 50 goal scorer argument, so was Jonathan Cheechoo but things change so don't expect some monumental return for him and don't expect a team to cripple themselves in the name of Dany Heatley. He's a damn good hockey player but he's not worth breaking the bank over, in my estimation.

Quote:
I'm ignoring anything, if you tell me something (like for the D-men situation), i'll take it in consideration... Of course i'm not a Sharks insider and i dunno about the exact situation of your team. How could anyone have an exact idea of what's happening in 30 NHL teams? But don't worry, i don't only follow the Sens, that's why i pay 360$ a year for NHL Center Ice...

So, seriously if you think it doesn't make sense i just can't help it. You guys think that 1 year of Marleau at 6.3 has the same value than Dany ****ing Heatley for 5 years at 7.5... How come i could convince you?
Heatley may have more trade value on the face of it but he's not a better player than Marleau and if a team convinced Marleau to waive his NTC to go there, I sincerely doubt that he wouldn't re-sign so to me his long-term deal is a moot point because Marleau's not a big-money free agent kind of guy.

Quote:
Ok, i get it. You guys wouldn't give up anything good to get Dany Heatley. I hope it is just because of his reputation because if it is just about hockey, you guys are insane or just in total ignorance.
I'm not saying I wouldn't give up anything good to get Dany Heatley. The issue is that the Sharks aren't in a position to give up anything good for Heatley because they're so tight against the cap and they don't even have a full lineup. They're in no position to devote the same or more cap space into fewer players at this stage. If I had replacements ready for Ehrhoff, I would gladly serve him up on a plate for the Sens to get Heatley...even with Michalek. However, the team has to think about the cap and next year's lineup and it just doesn't and won't work.


Last edited by Pinkfloyd: 07-12-2009 at 12:53 PM.
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07-12-2009, 12:47 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
And please don't use the better two-way player argument. There is absolutely no problem with Heatley's defensive game. So, with that logic, what you're saying is that Daymond Langkow or John Madden have more value than Joe Thornton?
You make some very fair points and I agree that anyone who thinks Marleau's all-time offensive production is on a par with Heatley's is barking up a peculiar tree...

HOWEVER, while Heatley is a good player, Marleau is a much, much better two way player so I don't understand how you can devalue that aspect of his game.

Marleau was second only to Mike Richards in the NHL in SHG this year and was the mainstay on our top PK unit. He's a two-way player for sure but Heatley, whether he's defensively sound or not, can't be put in the same category.

The reason Marleau doesn't then get put into a silly comparison with Langkow or Madden is because he put up considerably higher numbers than either of them offensively - enough to be joint 3rd in the NHL in GWGs.

You could easily justify saying Marleau was one of the top 3 or 4 2-way forwards in the NHL last year. In short, that's why your comment about his defensive game not being substantially better is way off base, IMO.

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07-12-2009, 12:54 PM
  #72
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Just get this done so we can start b****ing and moaning why trades on both ends suck ...

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07-12-2009, 01:04 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by SharkyMcWoo View Post
You make some very fair points and I agree that anyone who thinks Marleau's all-time offensive production is on a par with Heatley's is barking up a peculiar tree...

HOWEVER, while Heatley is a good player, Marleau is a much, much better two way player so I don't understand how you can devalue that aspect of his game.

Marleau was second only to Mike Richards in the NHL in SHG this year and was the mainstay on our top PK unit. He's a two-way player for sure but Heatley, whether he's defensively sound or not, can't be put in the same category.

The reason Marleau doesn't then get put into a silly comparison with Langkow or Madden is because he put up considerably higher numbers than either of them offensively - enough to be joint 3rd in the NHL in GWGs.

You could easily justify saying Marleau was one of the top 3 or 4 2-way forwards in the NHL last year. In short, that's why your comment about his defensive game not being substantially better is way off base, IMO.
On the Langkow note... Marleau has 6 more points than Langkow does over the past 3 years, total, in 3 less games.

Elaborate...

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07-12-2009, 01:21 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkyMcWoo View Post
You make some very fair points and I agree that anyone who thinks Marleau's all-time offensive production is on a par with Heatley's is barking up a peculiar tree...

HOWEVER, while Heatley is a good player, Marleau is a much, much better two way player so I don't understand how you can devalue that aspect of his game.

Marleau was second only to Mike Richards in the NHL in SHG this year and was the mainstay on our top PK unit. He's a two-way player for sure but Heatley, whether he's defensively sound or not, can't be put in the same category.

The reason Marleau doesn't then get put into a silly comparison with Langkow or Madden is because he put up considerably higher numbers than either of them offensively - enough to be joint 3rd in the NHL in GWGs.

You could easily justify saying Marleau was one of the top 3 or 4 2-way forwards in the NHL last year. In short, that's why your comment about his defensive game not being substantially better is way off base, IMO.
Ok, you're right Marleau's two-way play is more valuable than Heatley's 2-way play, but really not enough to justify the difference in production. If you don't agree , you would gladly take John Madden over Patrick Marleau then, and i'll explain :

John Madden : 140 goals, 157 assists for 297 pts in 712 games.
0,20 Goals/game. 0,42 Pts/game

vs

Patrick Marleau : 276 goals, 334 assists for 610 pts in 871 games.
0,32 Goals/game. 0,7 Pts/game

vs

Daymond Langkow : 245 goals, 359 assists for 604 pts in 941 games.
0,26 Goals/game. 0,64 Pts/game

Marleau has +0,12 Goals/game and + 0,28 Pts/game more than Madden.
Marleau has +0,06 Goals/game and + 0,06 Pts/game more than Langkow.

Heatley has +0,19 Goals/game and + 0,37 Pts/game more than Marleau.

So, you're telling me the Devils (if he was still with them) wouldn't trade John Madden (if he had one year left on his contract at 1,2 M$ less/year than Marleau) for Patrick Marleau (if he had 5 years left on his contract) ????????????????

Are you guys starting to understand the logic there?

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Old
07-12-2009, 01:29 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Sarcasm aside, no there isn't anyone ready to fill the void and when you're a team with the thought that you're trying to win the Stanley Cup, having a hole in your top four blue line is a substantial deal.
Maybe try to get another Top-4 in another deal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I didn't mention Heatley's character at all in my responses. I could care less if he asked for a trade or has problems with coaches. All players do and all it is that their problems are made less public. I'm also not saying that there's anything wrong with Heatley's defensive game. All I'm saying is that Marleau's better at it than him and by a very substantial margin. There's a reason why he's a top penalty killer on the Sharks. There's a reason why he's put out there with multiple players and double shifted and put in the big situations defensively for the Sharks. You're all about the numbers, man, and value-wise the numbers don't tell the whole story of a hockey player's worth and that is a concept you fail to understand. As for your heralded 50 goal scorer argument, so was Jonathan Cheechoo but things change so don't expect some monumental return for him and don't expect a team to cripple themselves in the name of Dany Heatley. He's a damn good hockey player but he's not worth breaking the bank over, in my estimation..
See my preceding post


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
Heatley may have more trade value on the face of it but he's not a better player than Marleau and if a team convinced Marleau to waive his NTC to go there, I sincerely doubt that he wouldn't re-sign so to me his long-term deal is a moot point because Marleau's not a big-money free agent kind of guy.
That's why he signed for "only" 6,3M$/year with the Sharks i guess?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I'm not saying I wouldn't give up anything good to get Dany Heatley. The issue is that the Sharks aren't in a position to give up anything good for Heatley because they're so tight against the cap and they don't even have a full lineup. They're in no position to devote the same or more cap space into fewer players at this stage. If I had replacements ready for Ehrhoff, I would gladly serve him up on a plate for the Sens to get Heatley...even with Michalek. However, the team has to think about the cap and next year's lineup and it just doesn't and won't work.
That's why in my proposal, i gave you 3 players for 2 and with a saving of 400 000$. Not a lot, but a 1M$ saving (400K + 1 roster player) would be a start...

Anyway, if you guys telling me the Sharks are going to extend Marleau long-term at a big price, then yes i understand that you can't afford Heatley, other wise you could. Just get a cheaper D-man to replace Erhoff (we could give you Picard maybe, i know he's not Erhoff but he's got upside), get rid of Cheechoo somehow and play Heatley with Thornton.

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