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Only two goaltenders have posted thirty win seasons in each of the last three years

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Old
03-30-2004, 01:05 PM
  #26
Knucklez
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orv
Another milestone for Cloutier. Only tender to let in a shot from centre by Nick Lindstrom to more or less lose the series for the 'Nucks. Way to go Dan!!!
Esche let in a shot from center the other night. It's happened quite a few times this year. New Jersey scored on Philly with a wrist shot from their own blueline earlier in the year, I don't remember who was in net. Jarome Iginla scored on Checkmanek, from his knees, from the blueline about a month ago. Bad goals happen all the time.

With this milestone, you can either admit Clouts is a good goalie, or admit the Canucks are a good team, there's no way around it

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03-30-2004, 01:07 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by battle axe
My fellow Canuck fans, why do you continue to bother arguing with posters on this board about the merits of Canuck players? Haven't you noticed a trend? We say Naslund's good, others say he's soft. We say the Sedins have improved, they point to their bulbous craniums. We say Cloutier has been one of our best players this season, others drag out statistics to point otherwise. No matter what they do, there is always going to be a reason other than their own capabilities to explain why they did well, i.e. other teams poor goaltending, strong defense in front of Cloutier etc...

I haven't been around these boards since the beginning, so maybe I am missing something, but what did you do (or say) to make yourselves so loathed? (Attn: other posters, this isn't an invite to point out everything that you dislike about Canuck fans)

The way I look at it, let the team do the talking. If Cloutier does something in the playoffs, come back here and rub it in everyone's faces. If Naslund snipes a trick in game 7, come back and post pictures with a caption that says "Everyone else can bite me". Thus far, sadly, the Canucks haven't done a heck of alot in the postseason, so they are going to be criticized until they do.

I think the best thing to do right now is to embrace this team's underdog mentality. You know, be very humble when discussing the team, and then if (when, hopefully) the Nucks do some damage in the playoffs, start walking and talking with a bit of a swagger. I can't wait for the playoffs to start.
Evidently people love a good argument or something. It's entertaining right?
And for some reason, it makes some people hate Canucks fans more. I'm still trying to understand this reason(whatever it is).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
Maybe Dan Cloutier ran over your dog (that would actually explain a lot), I don't know.

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Old
03-30-2004, 01:16 PM
  #28
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Its quite simple...Cloutier is good, maybe even a great goalie but the naysayers will still rear there ugly head until he sips from the holy grail...tough spot to be in but hes not the first and wont be the last.

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Old
03-30-2004, 01:26 PM
  #29
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It's Cloutier's team that is responsible for the wins, yet Brodeur is considered one of the best ever? Give me a break. No goalie can be that consistent without a great team in front of him. Brodeur is an amazing goalie, but he's overrated.

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Old
03-30-2004, 01:30 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ryan
It just makes me laugh.

If you make a thread similar to this involving Brodeur, people talk about how great of a milestone it is. What a record! So many wins! But with Cloutier it's "What the **** is your point? Wins mean nothing!"

Hahaha, good times.
Incorrect. With Brodeur, it would be, "Brodeur is overrated! Goalies aren't important to team success! Stats mean nothing! DEV1L5 5ucKK!!!!"

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Old
03-30-2004, 02:07 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklez
Esche let in a shot from center the other night. It's happened quite a few times this year. New Jersey scored on Philly with a wrist shot from their own blueline earlier in the year, I don't remember who was in net. Jarome Iginla scored on Checkmanek, from his knees, from the blueline about a month ago. Bad goals happen all the time.

With this milestone, you can either admit Clouts is a good goalie, or admit the Canucks are a good team, there's no way around it
Hey I'll admit that bad goals happen all the time and that Cloutier is a good goalie in the regular season BUT there is no way around admitting that the a bad goal like that shouldn't happen at that time of the year. If it does Cloutier has to be able to rebound but instead he self destructed. I remember when Osgood let one in from centre in th playoffs (it might of been in OT even) and the next game what did he do? Came out and shut down the other team. That's why he and Detroit won the cup that year.

So I'll admit that he's a good REGULAR SEASON goalie but you might as well quite resting your playoff hopes on Clouts because he's junk at the most important time of the year.

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Old
03-30-2004, 02:14 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Wins does not reflect a goalies talent..
That is the most pathetic statement I've ever read.

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Old
03-30-2004, 02:36 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
That is the most pathetic statement I've ever read.
Well, when you take it out of context like that, yeah.

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Old
03-30-2004, 03:22 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
That is the most pathetic statement I've ever read.
Sure thing sweetcheeks.. Tell me, you have a pathetic goalie, let's call him.. I dunno.. make something up.. Trevor Kidd.. in net, and the team in front of him consists out of All Stars at every position. The team averages 7 goals per game, while only giving up 12 shots a night, but of those 12 shots, Kidd only stops 6, sometimes 7. The team continues to rack up wins like this, with 7-6 scores, but what you're saying is that, Kidd is an All-Star too, because he racks up wins? Kidd is good because he went something like 50-7-12, but with a .500 Save% and 6.00 GAA? Since when did "winning" become a personal achievement? It takes more then a goalie to win, winning should be creditted to the team and not just one player. Its a team game, isn't it?

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03-30-2004, 03:23 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Cujo is the only goaly to post 30 plus wins with three different teams.
Belfour did it with Chicago, Dallas and Toronto.

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Old
03-30-2004, 03:25 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Sure thing sweetcheeks.. Tell me, you have a pathetic goalie, let's call him.. I dunno.. make something up.. Trevor Kidd.. in net, and the team in front of him consists out of All Stars at every position. The team averages 7 goals per game, while only giving up 12 shots a night, but of those 12 shots, Kidd only stops 6, sometimes 7. The team continues to rack up wins like this, with 7-6 scores, but what you're saying is that, Kidd is an All-Star too, because he racks up wins? Kidd is good because he went something like 50-7-12, but with a .500 Save% and 6.00 GAA? Since when did "winning" become a personal achievement? It takes more then a goalie to win, winning should be creditted to the team and not just one player. Its a team game, isn't it?
11/10 for one beautifully posted statement. Bonus marks added for bashing Kidd :p.

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Old
03-30-2004, 03:29 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersPhantoms33
That is the most pathetic statement I've ever read.
Two words...

Roman

Chechmanek

remember him?

lots of wins...not so good on the "not choking" thing.

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Old
03-31-2004, 03:19 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave_conolly
Game 6 of the 1st round against St. Louis we should have been out of it. I think it was a 2 on 1 and Cloutier made a magnificent kick save which he aimed towards the boards, it bounced hard off the boards right to a Canuck, sending him off....leading to a Canuck goal and the turn around of the series.
Wetcoaster your only going to tsn and checking on Cloutiers stats and thinking you have incredible hockey knowledge because you can copy stats off of a website. Maybe if you watched the Canucks games you would notice that Cloutier is good.
And Modano = God you definatly don't watch the Canucks if you say its all because of our defensive play. The Canucks probably let up the most 2 on 1's in the league and Cloutier time after time comes up with the huge save.
I do watch the Canucks games living out here on the Wetcoast and I also catch the PPV ay my local watering hole. It is crystal clear that Cloutier folds under pressure - the stats simply reflect this. Check out Greg Holden's article I cited earlier and you can clearly see that based on his career numbers and tendency to go south later in the season and in the play-offs Cloutier is not the guy to take the Canucks all the way.

One Canucks fanatic claims it is because Cloutier is not in good condition and that leads to injuries late in the year. I had put it down to a lack of concentration but I am coming to believe he simply does not have the conditioning or stamina to put in the minutes of a top No. 1. Given that he would not be capable of going every other night for two months to grind it out for a Cup. IMHO that is why he folded last year against the Wild.

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Old
03-31-2004, 05:03 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGod
Two words...

Roman

Chechmanek

remember him?

lots of wins...not so good on the "not choking" thing.


Yeah... or turn it around..
Luongo is just *horrible*

:lol

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Old
03-31-2004, 05:23 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
I do watch the Canucks games living out here on the Wetcoast and I also catch the PPV ay my local watering hole. It is crystal clear that Cloutier folds under pressure - the stats simply reflect this. Check out Greg Holden's article I cited earlier and you can clearly see that based on his career numbers and tendency to go south later in the season and in the play-offs Cloutier is not the guy to take the Canucks all the way.

One Canucks fanatic claims it is because Cloutier is not in good condition and that leads to injuries late in the year. I had put it down to a lack of concentration but I am coming to believe he simply does not have the conditioning or stamina to put in the minutes of a top No. 1. Given that he would not be capable of going every other night for two months to grind it out for a Cup. IMHO that is why he folded last year against the Wild.
while I've read everythnig you've posted, I must say...the Vancouver Canucks as a WHOLE played that series, especially games 5-7 simply marvolously....umm...except no.

The team as a whole choked. Cloutier STILL made some key saves, yet, he continually had to put up with rebounds that should've been cleared.

OR

Maybe it was because the Canucks were out-coached in that series, and Marc Crawforad WASN'T able to adjust his line-up to accomidate for the Wild's attack?

Wow...imagine that, possibilities, OTHER THAN CLOUTIER, for the Canucks losing to the Wild last year? Go figure that it's a TEAM game.......my gawd.

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Old
03-31-2004, 05:37 AM
  #41
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Wetcoaster, you overstate your view by relying on stats so heavily. Also that 'study' isnt complete because it doesnt correct for GAA being down in the playoffs anyways.

All that matters if your team wins. No one cares what save % or GAA you have if you have a Cup on your resume, so the stats get pulled out when you lose. Cloutier doesnt have a Cup, but neither do all goalies in the league except 3. Vancouver would have lost the the Blues last year without him, and probably would have lost to the Wild with a different goalie anyways. The team was outplayed in pretty much every game yet got a 3-1 game lead somehow.

Congrats to Cloutier for improving every year of his career. ******** on him doesnt change that no matter how hard you try, and he knows his career rests on his performance in the playoffs this year. So do many of the Canucks' players.


Last edited by rye&ginger: 03-31-2004 at 05:42 AM.
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Old
03-31-2004, 06:24 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
Sure thing sweetcheeks.. Tell me, you have a pathetic goalie, let's call him.. I dunno.. make something up.. Trevor Kidd.. in net, and the team in front of him consists out of All Stars at every position. The team averages 7 goals per game, while only giving up 12 shots a night, but of those 12 shots, Kidd only stops 6, sometimes 7. The team continues to rack up wins like this, with 7-6 scores, but what you're saying is that, Kidd is an All-Star too, because he racks up wins? Kidd is good because he went something like 50-7-12, but with a .500 Save% and 6.00 GAA? Since when did "winning" become a personal achievement? It takes more then a goalie to win, winning should be creditted to the team and not just one player. Its a team game, isn't it?
I'd trade save percentage and GAA for 50 wins any day of the week.

Wins are like the +/- of the goalie ranks. It's constantly debated over as an indicator of individual vs. team performance, and rightly so. I think, just like +/-, every individual case needs to be carefully measured.

Martin Brodeur and the Devils are pretty much the standard reference point for all of these arguments. The Devils have been perennial contenders from the moment Brodeur stepped in, and debates have raged for as long as I've been on the boards about 'good goalie vs. good system,' etc. I ultimately think that the importance of wins has to be assessed in reference to the team. Marty has played behind some offensive juggernauts (2001) and truly lackluster offenses ('96, 2001-present), but has maintained remarkably consistent numbers throughout his career, with wins being the most consistent. In a way, Marty is kind of like your fictional 'Trevor Kidd' - stopping enough to keep his team in the game. But the Devils don't put up 7 goals a game, it's usually around 2...and a truly special goalie will win with either type of team, and that's why I think wins are a legit measure of a goalie's aptitude.

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Old
03-31-2004, 06:33 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICX
I'd trade save percentage and GAA for 50 wins any day of the week.

Wins are like the +/- of the goalie ranks. It's constantly debated over as an indicator of individual vs. team performance, and rightly so. I think, just like +/-, every individual case needs to be carefully measured.

Martin Brodeur and the Devils are pretty much the standard reference point for all of these arguments. The Devils have been perennial contenders from the moment Brodeur stepped in, and debates have raged for as long as I've been on the boards about 'good goalie vs. good system,' etc. I ultimately think that the importance of wins has to be assessed in reference to the team. Marty has played behind some offensive juggernauts (2001) and truly lackluster offenses ('96, 2001-present), but has maintained remarkably consistent numbers throughout his career, with wins being the most consistent. In a way, Marty is kind of like your fictional 'Trevor Kidd' - stopping enough to keep his team in the game. But the Devils don't put up 7 goals a game, it's usually around 2...and a truly special goalie will win with either type of team, and that's why I think wins are a legit measure of a goalie's aptitude.
So Brodeur was a consistant MVP of the New Jersey Devils, it doesn't mean he won each and every game by himself. Who knows how Kidd would have done in such a system.. Put Martin Brodeur in net for the Pittsburgh Penquins, he'd record 20 wins, tops, and wouldn't even be a top 20 netminder according to you. Hockey is a team game, wining is a team result, it's pathetic to credit one player for it.

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Old
03-31-2004, 07:21 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICX
I'd trade save percentage and GAA for 50 wins any day of the week.

Wins are like the +/- of the goalie ranks. It's constantly debated over as an indicator of individual vs. team performance, and rightly so. I think, just like +/-, every individual case needs to be carefully measured.

Martin Brodeur and the Devils are pretty much the standard reference point for all of these arguments. The Devils have been perennial contenders from the moment Brodeur stepped in, and debates have raged for as long as I've been on the boards about 'good goalie vs. good system,' etc. I ultimately think that the importance of wins has to be assessed in reference to the team. Marty has played behind some offensive juggernauts (2001) and truly lackluster offenses ('96, 2001-present), but has maintained remarkably consistent numbers throughout his career, with wins being the most consistent. In a way, Marty is kind of like your fictional 'Trevor Kidd' - stopping enough to keep his team in the game. But the Devils don't put up 7 goals a game, it's usually around 2...and a truly special goalie will win with either type of team, and that's why I think wins are a legit measure of a goalie's aptitude.

While Brodeur has played behind some offensively challenged teams, he has always played behind a spectacular defense. Not saying would have played worse if he didn't but it makes the argument much more cloudy.

Here is a question that some of you might be able to answer: Where has NJ ranked in 'shots against' each of the last ten years? I don't know, but it seems they are always in the bottom 5 or so.

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Old
03-31-2004, 10:27 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCJr
Its quite simple...Cloutier is good, maybe even a great goalie but the naysayers will still rear there ugly head until he sips from the holy grail...tough spot to be in but hes not the first and wont be the last.
How about we keep things simple.... just getting a sub 3.00 GAA, over .900 save % in the playoffs would be fine. And honestly now, if the stats don't lie answer this, how many of you would take Cloutier heading into the playoffs over any other goalie except Brodeur?

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03-31-2004, 12:21 PM
  #46
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Ed Belfour has had 30 win seasons in 6 of the past 7 seasons while averaging about 60 games played.

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Old
03-31-2004, 02:26 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hello!!!goodbye
True, sometimes goalies have bad uncharacteristic seasons, just see Ed Belfour.

That being said, Cloutier is a great goalie and hopefully doesn't let another Lidstrom in (j/k, just had to say it).

GO WINGS GO
he almost did let in another Lidstrom this year to who else but Lidstrom haha. a shot from before center this time, fooled him and nearly beat him five hole. Cloutier had to reach back and make sure it didnt cross the line.

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Old
03-31-2004, 02:28 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cap'n Flavour
How about we keep things simple.... just getting a sub 3.00 GAA, over .900 save % in the playoffs would be fine. And honestly now, if the stats don't lie answer this, how many of you would take Cloutier heading into the playoffs over any other goalie except Brodeur?
i would take him over lots of goalies. martin brochu, the guy backing up dunham, brathwaite, the guy backing up brodeur, see lots of goalies:

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03-31-2004, 02:32 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardn
Cujo is the only goaly to post 30 plus wins with three different teams.
Belfour? Chicago, Dallas, Toronto

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03-31-2004, 02:39 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICX
I'd trade save percentage and GAA for 50 wins any day of the week.

Wins are like the +/- of the goalie ranks. It's constantly debated over as an indicator of individual vs. team performance, and rightly so. I think, just like +/-, every individual case needs to be carefully measured.

Martin Brodeur and the Devils are pretty much the standard reference point for all of these arguments. The Devils have been perennial contenders from the moment Brodeur stepped in, and debates have raged for as long as I've been on the boards about 'good goalie vs. good system,' etc. I ultimately think that the importance of wins has to be assessed in reference to the team. Marty has played behind some offensive juggernauts (2001) and truly lackluster offenses ('96, 2001-present), but has maintained remarkably consistent numbers throughout his career, with wins being the most consistent. In a way, Marty is kind of like your fictional 'Trevor Kidd' - stopping enough to keep his team in the game. But the Devils don't put up 7 goals a game, it's usually around 2...and a truly special goalie will win with either type of team, and that's why I think wins are a legit measure of a goalie's aptitude.
This may be true, but you've got to at least wonder how much the team contributes to Brodeur's winning when you look at the following two facts:

1) Brodeur's backups (Schwab and Clemmenson) have been able to post sub-1.00 GAAs playing for New Jersey
2) Brodeur's stats have sunk back to earth since Stevens was been injured

Just a thought (by no means conclusive)...

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