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What is a truly ELITE forward worth to the NY Rangers

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Old
07-15-2009, 04:15 PM
  #1
I Am Chariot
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What is a truly ELITE forward worth to the NY Rangers

Ive been kind of puzzled by the posters negging on any Heatley deal to NY. I understand there may be personality issues but putting that aside, Dany Heatley is a pretty rare commodity to hit the trade, UFA market.

Other than Ovechkin and Kovulchuk, Heatley is the best goal scorer in the NHL over the last few seasons, and the biggest obstacle in many of our boards postings is having to give up Brandon Dubinsky and or Bobby Sangs/Del Zotto.

Maybe I'm to impatient, but I look at the competition and I see elite players making the difference and I want a legit shot at beating these teams. Not 5 years from now. I want to win NOW. Henrik alone won't cut it. Not with Rennys system and certainly not with Torts system imo. This team needs some thoroughbreds to go up against the competition plain and simple.

I like Dubi. I like him a lot. But will Dubi ever be an elite player in the NHL? I suppose its possible but to be realistic the potential is probably more like a great #2 center.

So I guess my question is if not a Dany Heatley what sort of return would you realistically want for a Dubi + Z/top prospect + pick.

It aint Crosby...nor Malkin....Ovechkin ..not happening

Kovulchuk....maybe as a UFA, but there are no guarantees he'll ever hit the market. Look what happened with Nash this summer. Re-upped in beautiful Columbus.

How many elite player ever even get to the open market?

And yes everyone of them is damaged in some way Too soft,,,whinny *****,,,all about me,,,parties too much,,,chokes in the playoffs,,etc.

You gotta give to get in this league and you have to have A LOT of talent to compete in our division let alone the rest of the league...

So what is an Elite player worth?

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07-15-2009, 04:27 PM
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an Elite player is worth $7.5 mil for 5 years.

we just signed him 7/1

hint is name rhymes with schmaborik

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07-15-2009, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
So what is an Elite player worth?
$37.5M over 5 years.

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07-15-2009, 04:30 PM
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7.5 Million for five years...

No but seriously, I would take Heatley in a second! People are complaining about his attitude, and while some of his actions are questionable he is still one of the best players in the league. Dubinsky will be a good forward, not great (hopefully i'm wrong and he's a superstar). The point is I would have done the deal for Heatley with Zherdev and a prospect in the mix any day. HOWEVER, it is just so much better that we were able to get rid of gomez, keep dubinsky, use the money for Gaborik, and not only keep our prospects but add one more to the pool.

Gaborik is injury prone, but he is an elite talent no matter what anyone says, he has the potential to be a top point and goal scorer. 13 goals in 17 games is joke. The signing may not pay off, Heatley may produce more, but for the moment I like sather's decision and his aggressiveness on the open market.

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07-15-2009, 04:30 PM
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If there wasn't a salary cap, I'd have no reservations. But in the salary cap world, he just doesn't fit. Yeah, we might work it to get him in under the cap, but our defense will suck and his contract will hamstring us going forward. You can't have 5 players making over 35 million dollars and expect to ice a cup contending team.

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07-15-2009, 04:36 PM
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It has nothing to do with the fact, for me, that I dont think Heatley is worth Dubinsky. Its the fact that he has so little value around the league that he doesnt have to be included.

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07-15-2009, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
It has nothing to do with the fact, for me, that I dont think Heatley is worth Dubinsky. Its the fact that he has so little value around the league that he doesnt have to be included.
Thats the bluff...some other GM could offer their vesion of Dubi and the Rangers lose....

I like Gabby...have high hopes and am keeping positive. But a forward attack that included both would be very competitive.

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07-15-2009, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Thats the bluff...some other GM could offer their vesion of Dubi and the Rangers lose....

I like Gabby...have high hopes and am keeping positive. But a forward attack that included both would be very competitive.
Salary Cap. I dont know how many times people in this thread need to say it.

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07-15-2009, 05:30 PM
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Now, if we are talking a truly elite CENTER, I might have a different answer.....I like Heatly ALOT but now we need a center...And I'm willing to trade a Dubi, a Cally, the rights to Zherdev, or whoever for him, if that player (center) exists...

Having a hard time keeping track, but right now our centers would be Dubinsky, Drury, ANismiov and Arnason, right? Am I missing somebody....If so, forget the rest!.....pretty pathetic in reality, at best a mdiocre 2nd line center, a good 3r line C, and two 3rd-4th line C's...We need a top one bad....we need a distributor..JMO

With wingers Lisin, Gaborik, Higgins and Kotalik brought in, for better or for worse, I'm sure Zherdev will be traded for one or allowed to walk with the money for his contract used on one..Hopefully....Would love an ELITE center, but don't think the cap will let us..

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07-15-2009, 05:36 PM
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Actually, it has a little less to do with the cap then everyone thinks. Maybe you're all overlooking that if we could somehow release Wade Worthless for $6.5, it'd be a lot easier trade off to bring Heatley here and then our forward corp would be amazing.

That is, of course, assuming we give up no center depth in the deal.

Then again, it's not easy to get rid of Redden, and probably won't happen unless that buyout thing next year or so becomes true.

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07-15-2009, 05:44 PM
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Do whatever you can to land Heatley. Get under the cap this season. Dump Redden the next...move forward accordingly.

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07-15-2009, 05:47 PM
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Yea... The cap is workable and you find ways...good gms do find ways.

So let's say its a center. Are you willing to pay for Jumbo?
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07-15-2009, 05:54 PM
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You can only have so many big-ticket players on the roster. Even if Redden and Drury (and Rozy arguably) were worth their contracts it would still be poor cap management to put so much money into so few players.

My other line of thinking is that Heatley is pretty one-dimensional as far as great players go. If I had my choice for another 7.5 million dollar player it would be that elite center like Lecavalier, Thornton (not richards or marleau).

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07-15-2009, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Yea... The cap is workable and you find ways...good gms do find ways.

So let's say its a center. Are you willing to pay for Jumbo?
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I might, for a center...But I gotta get rid of one of those other contracts somehow in addition to trading Zherdev or letting him walk....No problem dealing Drury if somebody would take him.....Redden is an ablatross, nobody will take him..And I don;t see us storing him in Hartford next year....Roszival, though not as expensive, might also be more easily moved..and some good young player would have to go to.....hard choices to make without knowing who might be available..

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07-15-2009, 06:16 PM
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If sather can move Gomez he can get out of the other contracts...there's always a way. Have to stay positive.

Build us a contender
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07-15-2009, 06:18 PM
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If Heatley is the difference between a make/break season, then I'd maybe consider it.

But he's not. The characters Sather has brought in via trade or free-agency, combined with Torts's high-tempo offensive scheme, will result in more goals.

This isn't 2007-2008. It's a revamped roster that will have numerous guys that can put the puck in the net.

We need to change this mind-set, and understand we're going to be watching a very different team in October, which may not need more one-dimensional goal-scorers.

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07-15-2009, 06:21 PM
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I really think Heatley's being a bit overrated by a lot of people here. He's probably already set his career highs, and I don't see him netting more than 70 points next year. Sure, that's still awesome, but it's not ELITE numbers.

I don't think he's worth the distraction either. This guy has played in Atlanta and Ottawa and managed to become an off the ice problem...do you guys really want to see what he'd be like in New York?

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07-15-2009, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
If sather can move Gomez he can get out of the other contracts...there's always a way. Have to stay positive.

Build us a contender
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Gomez>>>>>Redden

Rozy could PROBABLY be moved, but it's a bad idea right now unless you're getting a top 4 defenseman back.

Lundqvist is obviously here to stay.

Drury isn't going anywhere either (full NMC)

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07-15-2009, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Other than Ovechkin and Kovulchuk, Heatley is the best goal scorer in the NHL over the last few seasons
Malkin..Crosby...Datsyuk...Parise...Iginla...J. Carter...Semin...Elias....Eric Staal....Spezza...Zetteberg....Lecavalier....Koval ev....oh and Gaborik outscored him in 07 08 as well. The list goes on too...

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07-15-2009, 06:30 PM
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Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boom Boom Geoffrion View Post
If Heatley is the difference between a make/break season, then I'd maybe consider it.

But he's not. The characters Sather has brought in via trade or free-agency, combined with Torts's high-tempo offensive scheme, will result in more goals.

This isn't 2007-2008. It's a revamped roster that will have numerous guys that can put the puck in the net.

We need to change this mind-set, and understand we're going to be watching a very different team in October, which may not need more one-dimensional goal-scorers.
We are very weak at center and, after Gaborik have some pretty flawed options for the top 2 line wingers...When you are counting on the likes of Kotalik, Higgins and maybe Linsin, thing may go very, very wrong....I'll admit that there is also a chance of these players performing better/improving (Higgins in a contract year. Lisin wih more ice time) but no way would i count on it...A primo center (I don't know, Richards, Spezza, etc..) to help the wingers would be beneficial, as would a higher quality winger...But it all comes down to cost and we just might be boxed in an we'll have to make due with our mediocrity..

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07-15-2009, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
We are very weak at center and, after Gaborik have some pretty flawed options for the top 2 line wingers...When you are counting on the likes of Kotalik, Higgins and maybe Linsin, thing may go very, very wrong....I'll admit that there is also a chance of these players performing better/improving (Higgins in a contract year. Lisin wih more ice time) but no way would i count on it...A primo center (I don't know, Richards, Spezza, etc..) to help the wingers would be beneficial, as would a higher quality winger...But it all comes down to cost and we just might be boxed in an we'll have to make due with our mediocrity..
I would be much happier getting Spezza at this point than getting Heater.

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07-15-2009, 06:39 PM
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It isn't that Heatley is worth more or less than Sangs and Dubinsky or any particular package. The issue is that his price is very, very low. I don't think I would be far off or out of line to say that the New York Rangers are one of if not the only team that fits every sort of criteria that is absolutely necessary to make this deal happen. If that is the case, I'll refer to precedent and say that right now Heatley is worth Anson Carter with Ottawa picking up half of Heatley's salary.

Never mind the CBA rules about salaries, I'm just making a point about real values when a player is 1) high cost, 2) perceived to be a cancer, 3) and being shopped publically with no one beating down your door to take him off your hands.

Heatley is probably 'worth' Dubinsky and Staal and probably more, like a 1st or another high level prospect. His price right now is probably around Zherdev (A. Carter if you will) and Roszival (half of Heatley's salary in the analogy).

Another way to look at is that the ceiling has been set with Penner, Cogliano and Smid since that is what Edmonton has proven to be Ottawa's definition of an acceptable deal... there's no reason to pay a penny more than that. Penner is a salary dump, never mind the media spin Murray is putting on him for the Sen fans to buy into. Cogliano is practically our Callahan, decent player whose value is in how he plays the game and not his skill set. Smid is our Girardi, maybe better but he's a close comparable. But here's the rub, Heatley is being such a ball buster that we don't have to compete with that deal... he won't allow that transaction to go down. We aren't in competition with Edmonton, we are bidding against the teams on his list and we now know that he is sticking to that list come hell or high water.

So already I know that a deal of Callahan, Roszival and Girardi is overpayment for Heatley's price. It's just a matter of what the other teams on his list are bidding. SJ is too tight against the cap, LA isn't interested in his character plus they have a budget. Every team is going to have cap issues or budget constraints, so money is going back to Ottawa whether they like it or not. So if we are competiting against at most 7 other teams, all of whom have money constraints in some form, our price will continue to drop. There's like 2 teams on his list that have any interest. I'll be damned if I kill myself while trying to make this deal happen. I'm not doing him a favor by giving anything of value for his problem. He'll take our salary dumps, he'll take skilled guys that don't fit into our big picture or he can go into this season with a cannabilistic crowd and an ugly lockerroom.

That's not even getting into how a deal with Dubinsky and Sanguinetti just can't work because of the cap issues. It's just an impossibility to include cheap talent. It's stupid to include it because we can't replace it in a time frame that justifies Gaborik's and Heatley's tenure in NY.

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07-15-2009, 07:23 PM
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One thing about the Cap is that it is for the most part forcing Sather to rein things in.I think we have more of a chance to loand Heatley with a cap than with out. If there wasn't a cap we wouldn't have the assetts to trade, most likely because Sather would have given them away by now for a bandaid.

I think we are set with top 6 Forwards, but adding Heatley to the mix would be somthing special. Can't give up Dubi, we gave our extra center away when we traded Gomez, & we need to unload Rozival or Redden.

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07-15-2009, 07:56 PM
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I would love Heatley on this team. But, I think we need a #1 center more than anything right now. All great teams have a 1-2 punch down the middle in the center position. Dubi is not a first line center, at best right now, hes a second line.

We need someone like Joe Thornton. Now, what does it take to get him?

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07-15-2009, 08:33 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
It isn't that Heatley is worth more or less than Sangs and Dubinsky or any particular package. The issue is that his price is very, very low. I don't think I would be far off or out of line to say that the New York Rangers are one of if not the only team that fits every sort of criteria that is absolutely necessary to make this deal happen. If that is the case, I'll refer to precedent and say that right now Heatley is worth Anson Carter with Ottawa picking up half of Heatley's salary.

Never mind the CBA rules about salaries, I'm just making a point about real values when a player is 1) high cost, 2) perceived to be a cancer, 3) and being shopped publically with no one beating down your door to take him off your hands.

Heatley is probably 'worth' Dubinsky and Staal and probably more, like a 1st or another high level prospect. His price right now is probably around Zherdev (A. Carter if you will) and Roszival (half of Heatley's salary in the analogy).

Another way to look at is that the ceiling has been set with Penner, Cogliano and Smid since that is what Edmonton has proven to be Ottawa's definition of an acceptable deal... there's no reason to pay a penny more than that. Penner is a salary dump, never mind the media spin Murray is putting on him for the Sen fans to buy into. Cogliano is practically our Callahan, decent player whose value is in how he plays the game and not his skill set. Smid is our Girardi, maybe better but he's a close comparable. But here's the rub, Heatley is being such a ball buster that we don't have to compete with that deal... he won't allow that transaction to go down. We aren't in competition with Edmonton, we are bidding against the teams on his list and we now know that he is sticking to that list come hell or high water.

So already I know that a deal of Callahan, Roszival and Girardi is overpayment for Heatley's price. It's just a matter of what the other teams on his list are bidding. SJ is too tight against the cap, LA isn't interested in his character plus they have a budget. Every team is going to have cap issues or budget constraints, so money is going back to Ottawa whether they like it or not. So if we are competiting against at most 7 other teams, all of whom have money constraints in some form, our price will continue to drop. There's like 2 teams on his list that have any interest. I'll be damned if I kill myself while trying to make this deal happen. I'm not doing him a favor by giving anything of value for his problem. He'll take our salary dumps, he'll take skilled guys that don't fit into our big picture or he can go into this season with a cannabilistic crowd and an ugly lockerroom.

That's not even getting into how a deal with Dubinsky and Sanguinetti just can't work because of the cap issues. It's just an impossibility to include cheap talent. It's stupid to include it because we can't replace it in a time frame that justifies Gaborik's and Heatley's tenure in NY.
Great post...Murray has tried all along to create a market that's not there for Heatley. When I see the "give them MDZ. Dubi, Sanguinetti, McDonagh, Higgins, Zherdev, etc....AND a #1 pick for Heatley", I have to laugh. The Sens set Heatley's value...there is no demand. The only other option is keeping Heatley, and make him the scapegoat if things don't get better. I'm sure his value will just skyrocket then. Sather has all summer to put things in place and create the needed space and assets to get the deal he wants.

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