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What is a truly ELITE forward worth to the NY Rangers

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Old
07-15-2009, 07:57 PM
  #26
I Am Chariot
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Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk View Post
But it all comes down to cost and we just might be boxed in an we'll have to make due with our mediocrity..
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Old
07-15-2009, 08:11 PM
  #27
DarthSather99
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So when we traded for Alexi Kovalev from Pittsburgh, how did that work out?

One thing about the NHL and a salary cap. You can't pay your stars fair market value and expect to win. You'd never fit under the cap. You need to develop them when they are young and cheap and combine them with players that are older and willing to work cheap for a chance to win the Stanley cup.

There is a hugh difference in the amount of talent when comparing teams like Pittsburgh/Detroit that are paying the same in salaries as a team like Anaheim/Toronto.

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07-15-2009, 09:07 PM
  #28
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This is actually a hard because worth is directly related to cost. In this case, how much can the Rangers afford?

A guy like Heatley may very be worth a package that included Dubinsky. But can the Rangers afford it?

I don't know if people are down on getting Heatley, so much as they don't see a way it can get done.

A. Because of cost.

and

B. Because of the cap.

And there are going to be some people out there who would rather NOT give up the assets for Heatley and use the money to go for a guy like Kovalchuk.

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07-15-2009, 09:14 PM
  #29
darko
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Thats the bluff...some other GM could offer their vesion of Dubi and the Rangers lose....

I like Gabby...have high hopes and am keeping positive. But a forward attack that included both would be very competitive.

I'm all for Heatley but really doubt I would want us to part with Dubi. Under normal circumstances 'hell yes' but since we are very thin at C we can't afford to lose Dubi.

If say we get Heatley and give up Dubi here's what happens:

1. we use up all our cap (7.5 mill for Heats)
2. we play Drury on top line with Gabby and Heats, AA on 2nd line. Who plays 3rd line? Boyle? Arnason? I doubt we would have enough cap room to bring in even someone like Brendan Morrison...

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07-15-2009, 09:21 PM
  #30
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Id hate to lose Dubinsky, but for Heatley it is more than worth it.

Dubinsky has a ton of potential, but we already what Heatley has to offer and it is most likely more than Dubinsky ever will.

We would be stupid not to let Dubinsky go for Heatley assuming all works inside the salary cap.

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07-15-2009, 09:26 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
I'm all for Heatley but really doubt I would want us to part with Dubi. Under normal circumstances 'hell yes' but since we are very thin at C we can't afford to lose Dubi.

If say we get Heatley and give up Dubi here's what happens:

1. we use up all our cap (7.5 mill for Heats)
2. we play Drury on top line with Gabby and Heats, AA on 2nd line. Who plays 3rd line? Boyle? Arnason? I doubt we would have enough cap room to bring in even someone like Brendan Morrison...
Isn't he a Cap now?

The debate doesn't even have to center on Dubinsky. Plug in any young, cheap, effective player (be it Staal or Callahan) and the deal is next to impossible to pull off. We are up to the cap and then have to replace the traded players.

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Old
07-15-2009, 09:30 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Isn't he a Cap now?

The debate doesn't even have to center on Dubinsky. Plug in any young, cheap, effective player (be it Staal or Callahan) and the deal is next to impossible to pull off. We are up to the cap and then have to replace the traded players.
Brendan Morrison??? Last I heard was that NJ Devils were chasing him...


I would part with Cally in a Heatley trade no questions asked. Staal, hmm not sure I would really part with him, we would be dreadfull defensively...

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07-15-2009, 09:32 PM
  #33
Sidgeni Malkby
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I like Dubinsky...

So with Heatley you end up with 2 goal scorers (Heats & Gabbo) with nobody to set them up?

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Old
07-15-2009, 09:33 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko View Post
Brendan Morrison??? Last I heard was that NJ Devils were chasing him...


I would part with Cally in a Heatley trade no questions asked. Staal, hmm not sure I would really part with him, we would be dreadfull defensively...
They (the Caps) signed him to a one-year deal.

http://starsblog.dallasnews.com/arch...r-brendan.html


Last edited by Mint Berry Crunch: 07-15-2009 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Elaboration.
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Old
07-15-2009, 09:57 PM
  #35
NYR Viper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangers2009 View Post
Id hate to lose Dubinsky, but for Heatley it is more than worth it.

Dubinsky has a ton of potential, but we already what Heatley has to offer and it is most likely more than Dubinsky ever will.

We would be stupid not to let Dubinsky go for Heatley assuming all works inside the salary cap.
Has nothing to do with the fact that he isnt worth getting Dubinsky, it has everything to do with then missing a center who can play on the top-2 lines which will not be cheap to get or pay for. Dubinsky, now that Gomez is gone, is practically untouchable unless a better center is coming back.

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Old
07-15-2009, 10:52 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Has nothing to do with the fact that he isnt worth getting Dubinsky, it has everything to do with then missing a center who can play on the top-2 lines which will not be cheap to get or pay for. Dubinsky, now that Gomez is gone, is practically untouchable unless a better center is coming back.
Out:

Gomez
Betts

In:

Boyle
Anisimov*


I can't imagine Dubinsky being traded, unless Slats has 2 trades in mind; Trading for Heatley, then trading for another Center.

This scenario is very unlikely. If Heatley costs us Dubi/Rozy, then who gets moved for a Center? And who fills all of the holes we're creating by flopping things around while staying under the cap?

That's way too much to happen. Slats is like 80 years old. He can't manage all of this, on top of what he's already done since late june. The guys asleep by 8pm, and doesn't get up until noon, unless he's on a fishing expedition. True story.

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Old
07-15-2009, 10:55 PM
  #37
John Torturella
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This is about as likely as the Yankees getting Halladay. Not very. At all.

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07-16-2009, 05:19 AM
  #38
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If the reports that Sather already said no to including Dubinsky in the deal, I'm not sure why people would think that an future offer would include him. Ottawa already set the price, and they haven't gained any leverage in a deal. Heatley still hasn't agreed to go to Edmonton, and no other team has shown interest. In fact, Murray accepted the Rangers original offer to a deal without Dubinsky, only to ask for him at the last minute. Again, putting Dubinsky in the deal now is not even a consideration, given Murray's lack of leverage. Until SJ clears up cap space, and shows interest in trading for Heatley, or Heatley suddenly finds Edmonton appealing, Sather has the advantage; Heatley WANTS to be a Ranger, and believed he was on his way to NY, until Murray tried to change the deal at the last minute. Sather can wait until opening night, and then there's a good chance Heatley's value drops even more when he goes back to Ottawa and becomes the scapegoat for any failures Ottawa has this season.

I side with Inferno on this - the longer it takes to get this resolved on Ottawa's part, the better the chance Heatley becomes a Ranger.

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Old
07-16-2009, 06:05 AM
  #39
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I love this Heatley wants to be a Ranger so lets get him. The Rangers were not on Heatley's original list of teams. He added them after his agents realized some of the teams on his list were not viable.

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07-16-2009, 06:25 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
I love this Heatley wants to be a Ranger so lets get him. The Rangers were not on Heatley's original list of teams. He added them after his agents realized some of the teams on his list were not viable.
And your point is? We know this much is true...he doesn't want to be a Senator or an Oiler. If the reports are true that he thought he was headed to the Rangers, until Murray tried to change the deal, then that says to me he wanted to be a Ranger. It's not "Rangers or bust".

The other point is not "the Rangers have to get him". Rather, they already showed they have interest in trading for him, and, according to some reports, were on the verge of getting him...why wouldn't they maintain some level of interest in him if they could get him at their price?

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Old
07-16-2009, 06:56 AM
  #41
I Am Chariot
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Rangers were always on Danys shortlist

They can find a cheap C to get him the puck. I'm sure of it.I don't care if its Peca if it puts a legit 50 goal scoring threat in front of lundqvist it gives this team a shot
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Old
07-16-2009, 07:21 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Rangers were always on Danys shortlist

They can find a cheap C to get him the puck. I'm sure of it.I don't care if its Peca if it puts a legit 50 goal scoring threat in front of lundqvist it gives this team a shot
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everybody keeps telling you the cap is an issue but you just brush it aside. "they can figure it out"

well we'd have gabby at 7.5, hank at 6.875, dru at 7.05, redden at 6.5, heatley at 7.5. How do you suggest we field the rest of the team??

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07-16-2009, 08:55 AM
  #43
DarthSather99
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Originally Posted by Rangers2009 View Post
Id hate to lose Dubinsky, but for Heatley it is more than worth it.

Dubinsky has a ton of potential, but we already what Heatley has to offer and it is most likely more than Dubinsky ever will.

We would be stupid not to let Dubinsky go for Heatley assuming all works inside the salary cap.
This is not a video game where you can throw a bunch of goal scorers together and expect them to be able to play WITH each other.

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07-16-2009, 10:19 AM
  #44
I Am Chariot
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A bunch of goal scorers?

Look at the teams we have to get past in the East

Pens, Flyers, Washington, Bruins....

Those teams have one way or the other built around multiple elite or almost elite players. I just want a shot a winning. I'm not willing to except the Rangers mediocrity in July.

I know Gabby is force but he's one guy. Is he more a force than Jagr was? We were a one guy offense than too and never got past the 2nd round. And god help us if the guy does get injured.

I really like what Sather and Torts are trying to do. I really do. I see a plan taking form. But they still need another go to guy on this roster to have a shot imo

I know the cap is choking their options, but where there is a will there is a way.

Maybe its not Heatley....maybe it's Redden. Maybe he puts last year behind him and re discovers his A+ game. Maybe Callahan busts out and scores more goals than Parise. Maybe some darkhorse dominates training camp and ends up the story of the year...

a lot of maybes.....

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Old
07-16-2009, 10:26 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by allstar3970 View Post
everybody keeps telling you the cap is an issue but you just brush it aside. "they can figure it out"

well we'd have gabby at 7.5, hank at 6.875, dru at 7.05, redden at 6.5, heatley at 7.5. How do you suggest we field the rest of the team??
Pray like hell that the rumors of 2010 amnesty buyouts are true? Getting rid of Redden makes things much more manageable.

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Old
07-16-2009, 11:12 AM
  #46
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Whatever a team is willing to give up without creating too many holes in their lineup.
The deal for Heatley was done with Penner, Cogliano and Smid going back. They can afford to give up Penner, they have Hemsky. Cogliano is their third line center and Smid is expandable they have better defensemen. Rangers cannot afford to give up Dubinsky after trading away Gomez. Maybe if Rangers added Anisimov to the deal it would have been done.

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Old
07-16-2009, 01:46 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post


I know the cap is choking their options, but where there is a will there is a way.
and you repeat your formula in this thread for ignoring the cap:

"i know the cap is an issue, but {insert cliche}"

teams like pittsburgh and detroit have stars below market value by getting them from within through a mix of luck, scouting, development and other factors.

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Old
07-16-2009, 03:49 PM
  #48
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You can only have so many big-ticket players on the roster. Even if Redden and Drury (and Rozy arguably) were worth their contracts it would still be poor cap management to put so much money into so few players.

My other line of thinking is that Heatley is pretty one-dimensional as far as great players go. If I had my choice for another 7.5 million dollar player it would be that elite center like Lecavalier, Thornton (not richards or marleau).
Me too.

This team needs a franchise center in the worst way. They are more valuable than wingers IMO.

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Old
07-16-2009, 07:08 PM
  #49
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In respect to what Heatley is worth: it's not outlandish to simply say Heatley is worth a decent player with a bad contract, one good young player and a third player with an ambiguous future. Why? Quite simply, Heatley brings too much baggage both tangible (IE cap hit) and intangible (locker room issues, asking to leave two teams). I have a difficult time calling a player in Heatley's shoes worth an elite forward's bounty even given his production.

Therefore, to answer the general question, I think any three player package we can put together that does not involve Staal nor Lundqvist nor Gaborik is probably, at best, equal value for that secondary tier of top forwards (meaning, not Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk or Crosby).

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Old
07-16-2009, 07:14 PM
  #50
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I think my fellow Rangers' fans want too much, too often.

We just got an elite scorer in his prime. It'd be nice to have another, but at what expense?

If we trade Dubinsky, 2010 1st, 2011 1st, Del Zotto (which is the very least Ottawa would want), then we still have no #1 center, when Dubi did just fine with Jagr two years ago (40 points) and last year WITHOUT Jagr (41 points).

Calm down!

Callahan - Dubinsky - Gaborik
Higgins - Drury - Avery

We'll do fine with those two lines as our top two. If a guy like Anisimov or Grachev makes the team and is fit for a top 6 role, even better!

This squad is going to be very exciting to watch!

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