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Torts:"We need a QB on the PP"

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Old
07-17-2009, 12:14 PM
  #76
GAGLine
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
But the problem is that the Rangers would be a pretty mediocre team if they didn't spend some money on big contracts. If we were talking about them trading Gomez to open up some space and then turning around and spending $7+ mill for 5 years on Gionta, then I'd agree about this years situation. Since they spent the money on the type of player they desperately needed, I'm not so worried. Guys like Gaborik are the type that you *should* spend money on.

I have no problem complaining about signings like Redden and Drury, but Gaborik was the type of signing that the Rangers needed to do. You can't get 3 players with small contracts and have that equal one Gaborik.

And realistically, you just can't build a team by only signing players to one year contracts. Players won't go for it, and you'll have to eventually give your important players big and long contracts. Again though, I'm perfectly fine with *****ing about some of the contracts the Rangers have given out, but I'm pretty ok with the idea of moving Gomez's salary and using that space to sign someone like Gaborik
I'm not saying we should have all short contracts. I'm much happier with Gaborik at 7.5 for 5 than I was with Gomez at 7.357 for 5.

But we can't afford to add anymore lengthy contracts. We have money left to spend? Ok, then spend it on 1 year contracts so that next year we can either resign that player, sign someone else, or use that money to sign our RFAs.

That's what I'm talking about: options. That's why the Kotalik signing pisses me off. I don't care that we gave him 3 million and I'm fine with him taking Zherdev's place if that's what they want to do, but it was a mistake to give him 3 years. I would have rather given him 4 mil for 1 year so that he would be off the books next year because we are going to need that money for other players.

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07-17-2009, 12:18 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
I'm not saying we should have all short contracts. I'm much happier with Gaborik at 7.5 for 5 than I was with Gomez at 7.357 for 5.

But we can't afford to add anymore lengthy contracts. We have money left to spend? Ok, then spend it on 1 year contracts so that next year we can either resign that player, sign someone else, or use that money to sign our RFAs.

That's what I'm talking about: options. That's why the Kotalik signing pisses me off. I don't care that we gave him 3 million and I'm fine with him taking Zherdev's place if that's what they want to do, but it was a mistake to give him 3 years. I would have rather given him 4 mil for 1 year so that he would be off the books next year because we are going to need that money for other players.
I think Kotalik signed for 3 years because Drury has 3 years left on his contract.

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07-17-2009, 12:19 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Stugots View Post
Made good points? He stated what every single ranger fan has been saying FOR THE PAST YEAR! I don't need a Penguins fan coming in here telling us what our GM has done wrong. What has their GM done that is so spectacular? Picked Crosby and Malkin in the draft? Anybody with a half of brain would've picked them if they had the top picks in the draft!

Don't attack me for telling a penguins fan to screw off.
PS....there current GM didn't draft Crosby and Malkin.....

Swing and a miss....but nice try!
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07-17-2009, 12:24 PM
  #79
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[QUOTE=There's only one 66;20457613]Really?
Reading this very forum I should think that there are quite a lot of Rangers fans who do not feel that way at all, and I would bet body parts that very few non-Rangers fans feel that way. Of course the market isn't over, but I'd rather have your pre-deadline team of last year than what you have now (predicated on Zherdev not being retained as I think he can't/won't be).

I agree with you though, that the mistakes of yesterday... well, you gotta let it go and correct what can be corrected, and of course Drury and Redden aren't just going to magically disappear.

My point was that it doesn't seem like there's much of a guiding principle to what is being done. At least I don't see one.


Well, lets see.

The team lacked a true and legit sniper/game breaker they went and got one.

The team lacked any secondary scoring and Sather went out and acquired Higgins and Kotalik. I've never been a proponent of thinkig one year makes the player. Rather I hold to the "the body of work put in, defines the player" and in Higgins case, he's a 20+ goal scorer. Kotalik is also a 20 goal guy.

I believe that we are more talented up front even with the anticipated loss of Zherdev because while he was a talented player, his kind of talent didn't always translate into points.

While I do not believe we lacked toughness, I do believe we lacked that unknown factor that Brashear brings. I'd prefer Orr, but I understand the reason for the switch and while I have my preferences, I like this move.

Overall, up front we are a much deeper team and will be better equipped to score goals than where we were 3 months ago.

On defence, our top four remain intact, Staal, Girardi, Redden and Roszival. We became quicker with the addition of Gilroy and I believe that his ability to hit the headman with his breakout passes are going to allow this team to skate more than last year. The #6 spot will be filled by guys like Potter/Sauer/Sanguinetti Playing in that #6 role 12-15 minutes a night will allow them to grow as players and not hurt the team all that much should they make a mistake.

I would think that overall, Sather has done a very solid job in changing the look, feel and structure of this team.

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Old
07-17-2009, 12:31 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Redden's scored 198 of his 436 career points with the man advantage. That's 45%. 145 of those points are assists, so I think it's fair to say that he's capable of making quality passes and setting up teammates that are in a position to score. To me, it's not a question of can Wade do it. It's a question of, can Torts deploy a strategy that maximizes his talents.
Melrose, the problem with that is we have the present day wade redden. The guy that has been on a steady 3 year decline. We don't have pre lockout Redden. Asking present day Redden to play like past Redden is a bit unrealistic.

Here are the numbers in the article that almost made me fall on the floor.

"For despite getting a team-leading 293:20 of power-play ice, Redden recorded just eight points (2-6) with the man advantage, at one juncture going 39 straight games without a five-on-four point and 58 straight without a power-play goal."

That is insane.


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Originally Posted by Vito Andolini View Post
there are certain attribute's a power play quarterback needs to possess to be successful. I'm sorry, but from what I've seen of Redden, if he ever had them, he doesn't have them anymore. He's not quick with the puck at all. Doesn't move the puck with any sense of foresight or speed. Lacks hustle and takes few risks. He shows very little maneauverability from the point. I never see him rush the puck down low and either shoot himself or look for the open man. Hardly ever see him sneaking in from the point for a tap-in. Puts no mustard on his shots and seems to be content with floating wristers.
Well said.

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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post

Without wanting (too much) to fan the flames or be super redundant here, it is pretty damn hilarious for fans of other teams when your coach comes out in a 2-part interview and says that things are good, we're just short at Nr.1 center and PP QB.
.... and then you step back for a sec. and look at the presence of salaries like these:

C: Chris Drury - 7.05
D: Redden - 6.5, job description offensive D-man and puck mover.
D: Rozival - 5, job description offensive D-man and puck mover.

For more absurdity, although insignificant in terms of the cap, the trio will be paid 22.05 million in total salaries this season. Holy crap, batman!
I gotta admit, that is pretty hilarious. It is the equivalent of the captain of a plane telling the passengers..."Everything is fine, we are just missing a wing and the engine. We have plenty of peanuts though."



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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Being on the ice during the power play doesn't mean Wade Redden ran the power play. He hardly ever did. Spezza ran the PP, and Yashin before him. I cannot wait to see the comments from the Redden booster club around here in December or January when his play continues to decline and he offers absolutely nothing on the offensive side of the puck. Why people here continue to fail to see that lack of speed is the biggest problem with this guy is a mystery to me. 32-year-olds don't get faster. They get slower.
Sting, what I don't get is according to some on here wade Redden played really well/great for Torts. If that is the case why would Torts say this ""Wade has to be better; he knows it and I know it," Tortorella said.

If I was Redden I would have told Torts " hey coach what do you mean I have to play better, the guys at HFboards think I played great when you came in as coach".

I am obviously just having some fun here but I think it shows something. When someone plays so bad for a good portion of the season and then they start to play average, as fans we convince ourselves he is playing great when in reality he isn't. He is just playing much better than he did before. Which I will admit, Redden finished the season much better. However, it still wasn't great by any stretch of the imagination.

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If Torts can get Redden back to the Redden we saw post lockout & in this years playoffs than Torts truly is a miracle worker.
Time machine?

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Old
07-17-2009, 12:48 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
But we can't afford to add anymore lengthy contracts. We have money left to spend? Ok, then spend it on 1 year contracts so that next year we can either resign that player, sign someone else, or use that money to sign our RFAs.
I'd agree on that, more or less. no room for big signings at this point, though I'd like to see Dubinsky get at least a couple of years.

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07-17-2009, 12:55 PM
  #82
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Honestly, a deal center around Richards for Redden is pretty damn feasible. Sure Redden is overpaid, but so is Richards. Plus there have been reports of Dallas bidding for Wade's services along with NYR. Hull may have been more willing to deal with Sather than Nieuwendyk after the Avery fiasco, but it sure as hell seems like it could be done if Dallas is still looking for D.
Yes Dallas wanted Redden last year but the Dallas beat writer reported recently that they wanted him at $4 million, not the $6 million for which he is under contract. Richards is not as overpaid as Redden and his contract expires sooner. It is not an equal trade. Plus in regards to that last part Dallas currently has 8 defenseman signed to 1 way contracts, the only D that Dallas is willing to take is a #1 PMD and frankly neither Redden nor Rozival are it, otherwise there wouldn't be all these threads started about Rangers looking for a PPQB, and at this point Richards is Dallas' only PPQB so without getting one in return he isn't going anywhere.

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07-17-2009, 01:04 PM
  #83
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I really thing Gilroy will be that PP QB. Kotalik will be on the other side letting shots rip and the PP will be better. It may take time, but I think they actually have the tools this year as compared to last season. The skill level has gone up.

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Old
07-17-2009, 01:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
I really thing Gilroy will be that PP QB. Kotalik will be on the other side letting shots rip and the PP will be better. It may take time, but I think they actually have the tools this year as compared to last season. The skill level has gone up.
Maybe, but not initially.

I see Gilroy being overwhelmed by the speed of the NHL game to start with.

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07-17-2009, 01:13 PM
  #85
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Maybe, but not initially.

I see Gilroy being overwhelmed by the speed of the NHL game to start with.
But if he is kept on the NHL team the PP would be a perfect place for him to get comfortable. His offensive game is up to par. If he can be given a bit more time with the puck I really think his lateral movement and offensive instincts are good enough to help the PP.

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07-17-2009, 01:22 PM
  #86
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the Rangers need more than a PP QB. They need an overhaul of the entire system as well as a plan. While I recognize that a PP QB is needed, he alone doesn't make the PP better. You cannot get a shot through from the point unless you have a shooting lane. You cannot get a shooting lane unless youmove around and move the defenders around to create a shooting lane. This is not typically done alone by a PP QB. One of the reasons why this team had mildly successful PPs with Jagr was Nylander. Who was the Rangers' PP point guy then? Straka? Rozsival? I can't remember. Jagr and Nylander played with the puck and each could carry the puck. One minute Nylander's on the left side, the next he's on the right side. Ditto Jagr. The difference between that PP being elite and what it was likely was the absence of a real point guy, and perhaps Nylander's overhandling of the puck, but that PP was leagues better than last season and the season before. The season before saw Dubi replace Nylander, and Dubi was static. That's a problem.

Of course the other problem is entering the zone. There are no puck carriers, but to be honest, we've seen enough Ranger PP setups to know that they do get into the zone and get lost once in there.

How is this corrected? It will be tough. There still isn't that second player to dance with Gaborik. Without that, it will put more pressure on the puck carrier, who doesn't exist, and the point guy, who is mediocre. If the PP is successful next season, props to the coach for getting it done with less than desirable pieces to the puzzle (unless other pieces are brought in). This is what separates good coaches from mediocre coaches.
Of course fletch nailed it on the head

PP is all about the unit of 5 not just the "pp qb". Like he said the guys we had at the point the 1st year of the lockout who were they....Straka and rozival im pretty sure it was them and neither of them are "PP qb". The thing is i think we have the talent here to have a great poweplay and torts needs to get them in line and on the same page

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07-17-2009, 01:34 PM
  #87
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PP is all about the unit of 5 not just the "pp qb". Like he said the guys we had at the point the 1st year of the lockout who were they....Straka and rozival im pretty sure it was them and neither of them are "PP qb". The thing is i think we have the talent here to have a great poweplay and torts needs to get them in line and on the same page
Two words: Jaromir Jagr.

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07-17-2009, 01:45 PM
  #88
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Of course fletch nailed it on the head

PP is all about the unit of 5 not just the "pp qb". Like he said the guys we had at the point the 1st year of the lockout who were they....Straka and rozival im pretty sure it was them and neither of them are "PP qb". The thing is i think we have the talent here to have a great poweplay and torts needs to get them in line and on the same page
Of course a successful powerplay has to have a cohesive unit of 5. But at the same time, successful powerplays have (at least) one guy that you can count on to make a dynamic play. For instance, when Jagr had that puck on the half-boards, you knew something special was going to happen. We didn't have a single person that could make such a play last season....maybe Gaborik can be that focal point this year, but the fact remains we are still severely lacking on the back end.

The thing that worries me most about Redden is his problems don't seem to be something that can be taught at this point. He's just in slow motion out there.

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07-17-2009, 01:53 PM
  #89
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Two words: Jaromir Jagr.
one word: nylander

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07-17-2009, 02:14 PM
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I wonder how Jagr would do in Torts system.

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07-17-2009, 02:18 PM
  #91
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one word: nylander
Thats laughable. Why dont you go ahead and take a look at Nylander's numbers when he wasn't playing Robin to Jagr's Batman.

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07-17-2009, 02:19 PM
  #92
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I wonder how Jagr would do in Torts system.
It wouldnt go well

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07-17-2009, 02:26 PM
  #93
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I wonder how Jagr would do in Torts system.

Jagr would do well, he likes an attack style of play.

If Jagr could play & score 56 goals in Tom Renneys defense first style than he would explode under Torts.....than, not sure about now.

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07-17-2009, 02:35 PM
  #94
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Jagr would do well, he likes an attack style of play.

If Jagr could play & score 56 goals in Tom Renneys defense first style than he would explode under Torts.....than, not sure about now.
First of all, Tom Renney's system morphed into a more defensive system as time went on and Sather's personnel decisions became more and more strange. The Rangers played a much more wide open style when Jagr went off for 123 points.

Secondly, its a little more complicated than "Jagr would do well because Torts=offense and Renney=defense." A lot of Torts' system has to do with a ferocious forecheck. Think Jagr would be down with that? I dont.

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07-17-2009, 02:41 PM
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Melrose, the problem with that is we have the present day wade redden. The guy that has been on a steady 3 year decline. We don't have pre lockout Redden. Asking present day Redden to play like past Redden is a bit unrealistic.

Here are the numbers in the article that almost made me fall on the floor.

"For despite getting a team-leading 293:20 of power-play ice, Redden recorded just eight points (2-6) with the man advantage, at one juncture going 39 straight games without a five-on-four point and 58 straight without a power-play goal."

That is insane.
My expectations for Redden are very realistic. He doesn't have to be Mike Green for him to be part of a much improved PP.

I'd be more concerned about Redden's offensive production with the man advantage if even one other teammate of his had been able to put up a respectable level of offense. There's a lot more wrong with Power Play than the people that are on it.

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07-17-2009, 02:46 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
My expectations for Redden are very realistic. He doesn't have to be Mike Green for him to be part of a much improved PP.

I'd be more concerned about Redden's offensive production with the man advantage if even one other teammate of his had been able to put up a respectable level of offense. There's a lot more wrong with Power Play than the people that are on it.
I'm not feeling Wade Redden this year. I think this guy has just been on a steady decline for a few years and it will only get worse. He would have to go against historical precedence and truly go against the norm to suddenly turn his career around. Most guys don't play subpar hockey for 4 years and then suddenly turn it around. I think his decline is more physical than mental. I hope I'm wrong.

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07-17-2009, 03:20 PM
  #97
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Redden isn't a PP QB. Never has been, never will be.

He is, however, a good piece to have on the blueline with the man advantage. He has a good shot and can make solid passes. You could bring in some of the best offensive blue liners in the league and the PP still won't get better until the strategy changes. Passing around the perimeter with stationary players is never going to work.

If we could get 40 points out of Redden while being solid defensively, I'd be thrilled.

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07-17-2009, 03:35 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Chris 84 View Post
God, I loathe the Pens but the guy was hardly being very annoying, just saying what he thinks on our forum. Don't see why everyone jumped down his throat.

The ones who lash out like little girls fail to understand that if they lived in Pitt they would hate the Rangers and root for the Penguins. You can't discuss things with some people because they only see things through narrow slits.

The guy posted nothing wrong in the least and his criticism of Sather was totally valid. There is no coherent plan. Every year brings a new "strategy".

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07-17-2009, 03:37 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
First of all, Tom Renney's system morphed into a more defensive system as time went on and Sather's personnel decisions became more and more strange. The Rangers played a much more wide open style when Jagr went off for 123 points.
That was also right after the lockout, where most teams were adjusting to the rules and hadn't adopted the now popular strategy of shot blocking everything and collapsing in front of the goalie (I like to think Renney made that popular by playing it that first year out of the lockout. I started seeing a lot more teams start doing that after the Rangers did it)

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07-17-2009, 03:38 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Redden isn't a PP QB. Never has been, never will be.

He is, however, a good piece to have on the blueline with the man advantage. He has a good shot and can make solid passes. You could bring in some of the best offensive blue liners in the league and the PP still won't get better until the strategy changes. Passing around the perimeter with stationary players is never going to work.

If we could get 40 points out of Redden while being solid defensively, I'd be thrilled.
I agree.

I can only think of a couple of times where he has used his shot. All he usually does is take these soft wristers from the blueline and they get blocked. He and Rozsival do not have a lot of poise but make good 1st passes.

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