HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Bob Mackenzie on the Hart Trophy

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-31-2004, 01:03 AM
  #1
loveshack2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Old School
Country: Tokelau
Posts: 3,299
vCash: 500
Bob Mackenzie on the Hart Trophy

"Everyone has pet peeves, and I'm no different. Mine is what the Hart Trophy is becoming. Somehow, somewhere, the most prestigious individual regular season honour that was always bestowed upon the best player in the NHL has morphed into some bizarre debate about who means more to his team."

http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp?id=78264

Couldn't agree more. Forget about which player means more to his individual team, the Hart Trophy is supposed to go to the best overall player in the NHL. For the record here are his picks for who should win, I dont believe they're in the online article but he gave them on TSN this evening.

1. Martin St. Louis
2. Ilya Kovalchuk
3. Roberto Luongo
4. Peter Forsberg
5. Miika Kiprusoff

loveshack2 is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 01:28 AM
  #2
Iggy-4-50
Registered User
 
Iggy-4-50's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 5,699
vCash: 500
Forsberg??
May as well give it to Allison and call it the shoulda coulda Hart Trophy

Why is it people forget about the first 60 games,i would give Nasland his spot for sure!

Iggy-4-50 is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 01:47 AM
  #3
PEli*
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: abroad
Posts: 8,901
vCash: 500
Agreed with the first three. Whether it was based on what the award SHOULD be based on (MVP) or performance, the top three given were perfect. Forsberg being in the top five is just ludicrous. Still, it's opinion. Not a big deal.

Kiprusoff seemed like a Canadian team pick. Didn't like that at all.

PEli* is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 02:03 AM
  #4
Heater15
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 224
vCash: 500
My picks:

Luongo
Kovalchuk
St.Louis

How can Forsberg be an MVP when he's hurt for half of the season? He's really helping his team when he's in the sky box.

Outside shots:
Kiprussoff
Sakic
Naslund

Heater15 is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 05:48 AM
  #5
rye&ginger
Registered User
 
rye&ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,156
vCash: 500
The NHL needs to revamp its awards anyways. There should be separate MVP awards for goalies and skaters.

rye&ginger is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 06:20 AM
  #6
sbutler66
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heater15
My picks:

Luongo
Kovalchuk
St.Louis

How can Forsberg be an MVP when he's hurt for half of the season? He's really helping his team when he's in the sky box.

Outside shots:
Kiprussoff
Sakic
Naslund

Wasn't that the point of his article, not awarding the trophy for most valuable to his team but the best player in the league. So, when Forsberg has actually managed to play, he has been one of the best if no the best player in the league. But i'd have to go with St Louis as my vote.

sbutler66 is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 06:23 AM
  #7
Evilo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: France
Country: France
Posts: 27,573
vCash: 500
The thing is, McKenzie seems to have picked players that mean the most to their team!
I mean, Kiprusoff, Luongo, Forsberg aren't Hart Trophy candidates to me, except if you think of the Hart as Most Valuable to the Team.

Evilo is online now  
Old
03-31-2004, 09:41 AM
  #8
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,579
vCash: 500
Bob needs a history lesson. From the NHL Guide & Record Book: Hart Memorial Trophy - An annual award "to the player adjudged to be the most valuable to his team". The award was given to the team mvp much more in the past than it is now. Almost half of the scoring leaders to win the Hart have won it in the last 25 years or so. The defensemen to win the Hart or be runner-up is is much higher before WWII than after. 45-03 - 4 winners, 6 runner-ups 24-44 - 7 winners, 8 runner-ups

BM67 is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 09:53 AM
  #9
loveshack2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Old School
Country: Tokelau
Posts: 3,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
Bob needs a history lesson. From the NHL Guide & Record Book: Hart Memorial Trophy - An annual award "to the player adjudged to be the most valuable to his team". The award was given to the team mvp much more in the past than it is now. Almost half of the scoring leaders to win the Hart have won it in the last 25 years or so. The defensemen to win the Hart or be runner-up is is much higher before WWII than after. 45-03 - 4 winners, 6 runner-ups 24-44 - 7 winners, 8 runner-ups
I'm sure Bob is familiar with the Guide Book. His main concern seemed to be that if you take the strictest definition of "most valuable to his team" then it becomes almost exclusively a goaltending award since on almost every team the goaltender is the most valuable player. That's just the nature of the game.

Oh and for the record he did say that there's no way Peter Forsberg will or should win the award but he felt compelled to mention him just because when he has played this season he's been so much better than everyone else around him on either team.

loveshack2 is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 09:54 AM
  #10
Pantokrator
Who's the clown?
 
Pantokrator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Semmes, Alabama
Country: Guatemala
Posts: 4,385
vCash: 500
Why isn't Brodeur in the list? I was under the impression that his team would be 0-82 if he weren't on it. Since his backups are so bad, he must play every game, and look at their record! They are in the playoffs! In fact, his backups are so bad that Burns only plays them when the other team plays its ECHL affiliate. That explains the backups' incredible numbers, cause, I mean, really, they stink! His team scores an average of 1 goal a night, so Brodeur must get a shut out each time he plays or they have no chance of winning. Actually, I think he has scored most of his team's goals. Come on, this guy deserves it! At least that's what the Devil's fans have been saying!


Before anyone lambasts me, please allow me to have a little fun at the Devil's fans expense! I mean, they have 3 cups in the last 10 years, I got none. They can take it!

Pantokrator is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 11:19 AM
  #11
David Puddy
Registered User
 
David Puddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: New Jersey, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,824
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evilo
The thing is, McKenzie seems to have picked players that mean the most to their team!
I mean, Kiprusoff, Luongo, Forsberg aren't Hart Trophy candidates to me, except if you think of the Hart as Most Valuable to the Team.
Which is what the description of the trophy is. Here is what it says, courtesy of NHL.com's Harty Memorial Trophy section,

Quote:
The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given to the player judged to be the most valuable to his team. The winner is selected in a poll of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association in all NHL cities at the end of the regular season.
Only two players have won the award in the last 60 years when not leading his team to the playoffs. It also has only been won seven times ever by a goalie, and they all got their respective teams into playoffs. Those precedents work against Luongo.

Kiprusoff has only played 37 games this year. He can't even reach the "1/2 of all games” mark (41.) However, he has played more than Forsberg.

Ilya Kovalchuk? Wasn't he benched and scratched recently? He has been, and McKenzie has him as a finalist for the Hart Trophy. Maybe I would give Kovalchuk the award for best young, self-centered superstar, but not the MVP of the league. Intangibles should be factored into the decision.

I only wonder what Doug McKenzie thinks of the Hart Memorial Trophy this year.

David Puddy is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 12:30 PM
  #12
ZombieMatt
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,244
vCash: 500
Personally, I would give the award to Roberto Luongo. In my opinion, through the entire season, he has proven to be the best goaltender in the NHL this year. Of course, you could make the argument that this is only because he's had the opportunity to make so many saves, etc, but in fairness, that argument could be made for any player.

Of course, I don't think Luongo will get the award. He may be nominated, but in the end it will likely go to St. Louis.

ZombieMatt is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 12:52 PM
  #13
AGraveOne
Registered User
 
AGraveOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,138
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to AGraveOne
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantokrator
Why isn't Brodeur in the list? I was under the impression that his team would be 0-82 if he weren't on it. Since his backups are so bad, he must play every game, and look at their record! They are in the playoffs! In fact, his backups are so bad that Burns only plays them when the other team plays its ECHL affiliate. That explains the backups' incredible numbers, cause, I mean, really, they stink! His team scores an average of 1 goal a night, so Brodeur must get a shut out each time he plays or they have no chance of winning. Actually, I think he has scored most of his team's goals. Come on, this guy deserves it! At least that's what the Devil's fans have been saying!


Before anyone lambasts me, please allow me to have a little fun at the Devil's fans expense! I mean, they have 3 cups in the last 10 years, I got none. They can take it!
i was surprised by Brodeur omission as well, only because he has been so HIGHLY TOUTED this year.

Just as you say...the Devils would be 6 - 76 - 0 (6 wins against the Rangers...) if Brodeur wasn't there.

Most Valuable to Team - Luongo or Sakic or Elias
Best Player in League - Forsberg (not played enough really) or St Louis or Naslund or Luongo


Last edited by AGraveOne: 03-31-2004 at 12:59 PM.
AGraveOne is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 01:12 PM
  #14
Orv
Registered User
 
Orv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Calgary, Ab/Eston,SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 347
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rye&ginger
The NHL needs to revamp its awards anyways. There should be separate MVP awards for goalies and skaters.
Isn't that the Vezina?

Orv is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 01:19 PM
  #15
canucks666
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,294
vCash: 500
this is my take on the hart:

1) this award IS the MVP so it SHOULD go to the most 'valuable' player not the "best" player. Know why? Cuz the "best" player usually wins the art ross. and that's fine and dandy

2) if a player can't get his team to the playoffs then he doesn't deserve the hart. Who cares how good he is or how valuable he is - in the end it doesn't matter if a team is 9th or 15th in the conference. In fact 15th would be BETTER - higher pick.


3) If the player has a strong supporting cast then he's not that valuable. Last year forsberg is the MVP. WTF? When joe sakic is right behind you you're not that valuable.

4) gotta play at least 2/3 of the season if you're a skater and 1/2 of the season if you're ag oalie


so............kiprusoff is out. not enough games. same reason for forsberg. luongo is out. no playoffs. st. louis is out. FIVE other 20 goal scorers on that team (richards, modin, lecavalier, andreychuk, stillman) And fedotenko with 17. When you've got so many 20 goal scorers (and in today's nhl 20 goals is a LOT), you can't be that valuable.

Kovalchuk..........has a shot but again - no playoffs.

Like i said - unless you absolutely stand out above the competition - like iginla did 3 years ago, unless you make the playoffs you shouldn't get the award.


Who's left?

Brodeur, Turco, Naslund.

Markus Naslund - has ONE 20 goal scorer on the team. And where he goes the team goes. If he's in a slump so is the team. FOr the last 3 years he was the ONLY guy to be in the top-10 at the end of the year in goals, assists, and points. This year he's slumped but he's still awesome.

anyway even if he's not worthy - neither are all those other guys.


But if you ask me to lift the restriction that you have to get your team to the playoffs then this is Luongo's award. As is the vezina.

canucks666 is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 01:19 PM
  #16
Bobby Lou
Moustache Power
 
Bobby Lou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Crease
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,379
vCash: 894
Why not give it to St.Louis...he meets both sets of criteria:

1. You can argue he is exceptionally valuable to Tampa Bay
2. He is arguably the best player in the league this year (who has remained healthy...enough of this foolish Forsberg talk)

Luongo has a loosing record and his team record sucks. Kipper doesn't have enough games. Kovalchuk is just outclassed by St.Louis as are the majority of other forwards.

In my opinion it comes down to...Sakic and St.Louis. Both have been HUGE in getting their teams to where they are in the standings and both are pretty much #1 and #2 in league scoring with respectable +/- and have low PIMS. So they are scoring more then anyone, not taking penalties and not having goals scored while they are on the ice. Add on to that anyone from either organization can't argue the importance of these two players and I think the Hart will come down to those two.

Bobby Lou is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 01:22 PM
  #17
Ajacied
Remember #9
 
Ajacied's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Netherlands
Country: Netherlands
Posts: 23,164
vCash: 500
St.Louis is one of many scorers on a high flying Bolts offense.. I'm sorry but I think that the Bolts would still be a playoff lock without him.

Ajacied is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 01:28 PM
  #18
Chaos
3, 2, 1
 
Chaos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Country: United States
Posts: 7,789
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Chaos
I may be wrong on this, but I believe I read somewhere that TB has 7 players with 17 or more goals, including 5 with 25 or more. Now, take St-Louis away from that team, and they still have plenty of firepower to at least be in the playoffs, if not leading their division.

Chaos is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 01:56 PM
  #19
discostu
Registered User
 
discostu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Nomadville
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsfan09
I may be wrong on this, but I believe I read somewhere that TB has 7 players with 17 or more goals, including 5 with 25 or more. Now, take St-Louis away from that team, and they still have plenty of firepower to at least be in the playoffs, if not leading their division.
Maybe a lot of those goals are being generated from his league-leading 56 assists?

Yes, the Lightning have a high-powered offence, but it's not like they have a cast of superstars. At the beginning of this season, no one would have labelled Tampa as one of the best offences in the league or anything. I think you have to give credit where credit is due. Tampa has had a great season offensively, and Martin St. Louis has been the largest driving force behind that (14 more points then the next closest team-mate).

discostu is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 02:10 PM
  #20
Blatny Spears
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toxostoma rufum
Posts: 911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Ilya Kovalchuk? Wasn't he benched and scratched recently? He has been, and McKenzie has him as a finalist for the Hart Trophy. Maybe I would give Kovalchuk the award for best young, self-centered superstar, but not the MVP of the league. Intangibles should be factored into the decision.
Benched, yes. Scratched, no. If intangibles should be factored in, then Kovalchuk should be considered. He raises the level of play of his linemates, has made huge strides in his defensive game, and carries the team on his back most nights. He definitely deserves consideration for the trophy.

I'd personally name Martin St. Louis, Roberto Luongo, and Ilya Kovalchuk my finalists, giving St. Louis the award.

Blatny Spears is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 02:14 PM
  #21
Holly Gunning
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: out and about
Posts: 3,486
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blatny Spears
Benched, yes. Scratched, no.
You're forgeting the New Jersey incident, when he was scratched for being late for practice.

Holly Gunning is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 02:53 PM
  #22
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 112,449
vCash: 50
My personal picks:

1. Miikka Kiprusoff - without a doubt the main reason why the Flames will finally be back in the playoffs

2. Martin St. Louis - Right now, IS the most exciting player in the NHL

3. Roberto Luongo - consistently has to make 45+ saves a night

GKJ is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 02:56 PM
  #23
Blatny Spears
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toxostoma rufum
Posts: 911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HollyG
You're forgeting the New Jersey incident, when he was scratched for being late for practice.
That's right. He took the scratching in stride and came back with his hair on fire the following game. I still maintain he deserves to be a finalist.

Blatny Spears is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 02:58 PM
  #24
Bobby Lou
Moustache Power
 
Bobby Lou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: The Crease
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,379
vCash: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano = God
St.Louis is one of many scorers on a high flying Bolts offense.. I'm sorry but I think that the Bolts would still be a playoff lock without him.
Who has the most assists in the league?

The next closest Bolt is what...14 points off?

I think he's contributing more then you're giving him credit for.

Bobby Lou is offline  
Old
03-31-2004, 03:01 PM
  #25
Teezax
Registered User
 
Teezax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,414
vCash: 500
Who cares who wins, the only trophy I care about is the Stanley Cup. Team sports shouldn't focus on individuals anyway. A trophy is simply a bargaining tool for a bigger contract next season.

Teezax is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:34 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.