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ATD Summary 2017

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Old
03-15-2017, 09:54 AM
  #1
tony d
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ATD Summary 2017

We usually do these every year and it spurs some good debate:

Biggest Steal(s) of the draft:
Biggest Reach(es) of the draft:
Smartest/best strategic pick in the draft:
Biggest blunder selection of the draft:
A Player finally getting respect in the draft:
A player always taken too high, finally getting picked where he should in the draft:
A player you've discovered in this draft:
Most underrated player taken:
Most overrated player taken:
Favorite scoring line of the draft:
Favorite checking line of the draft:
Best assembled line of the draft:
Worst assembled line of the draft:
Favorite pairing of defensemen:
Most puzzling pairing of defensemen:
Team in the other conference it'd be interesting to meet in the finals:
Team in the other conference you wouldn't want to meet in the finals:
A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft:

---

Best selection: You cannot vote for players you own
1st round:
2nd round:
3rd round:
4th round:
5th round:
6th round:
7th round:
8th round:
9th round:
10th round:
11th round:
12nd round:
13th round:
14th round:
15th round:
16th round:
17th round:
18th round:
19th round:
20th round:
21st round:
22nd round:
23th round:
24th round:
25th round:

'Worst' Selection
1st round:
2nd round:
3rd round:
4th round:
5th round:
6th round:
7th round:
8th round:
9th round:
10th round:
11th round:
12nd round:
13th round:
14th round:
15th round:
16th round:
17th round:
18th round:
19th round:
20th round:
21st round:
22nd round:
23th round:
24th round:
25th round:


Also, feel free to add any other comments or reflections about your experience/team this year.

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Old
03-15-2017, 06:21 PM
  #2
ck26
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I'll get this thread started, but I don't have enough active brain cells tonight to do everything.

Best / Worst selection:
1st round: Hasek / Rocket ... the goalies have all fallen dramatically since I last did one of these, and I was stunned to see the GOAT go 21st, after a bunch of wingers. Rocket is related to that ... I don't like the idea of taking a one-dimensional winger in the first round. Rocket ahead of Mikita / Morenz / Robinson / Fetisov? Other than Gordie, wingers should all go lower.

2nd round: Trottier at 39 or Lalonde at 46 is best, Coffey at 28 is worst. Despite all his talent, I think Coffey is the first player taken in this year's draft who you have to actively strategize to cover his weaknesses. I don't like a couple of the defensemen taken in round 2, I wouldn't want them on my team, but I'd still rather start my team with them than with Coffey.

3rd round: Brodeur at 69 / Chara at 51. Same thing, top 5 maybe top 3 goalie going behind Geoffrion and Bathgate. Confused by Chara, he was picked there as a Bruin, right? He's not as good as Pronger or Stevens, who went right behind him.

4th round: Fedorov / Iginla
5th round: Brimsek or Tretiak / Murphy
6th round: Cowley at 139 is great, Recchi at 141 is ehh

At this point it gets harder to see outliers ...

7th round: Parent at 173 is amazing, he's better than Belfour, Gardiner, Benedict
9th round: Markus Naslund at 212 isn't as good as the other wingers near him
10th round: Larionov at 241 is a guy you have to build carefully around but what a talent, he's a nice pick

9th / 11th round: Kopitar is just better than Toews, nice to get him two rounds later
13th round: Esa Tikkanen. Meh. Just a guy.
14th round: Joe Mullen is a great pick, he's got the defensive game of guys taken a couple rounds earlier and had some great skill too

16th round: Lundqvist in rd 16 and Price in rd 23 doesn't make sense ... they shouldn't be this far apart.


A player you've discovered in this draft: a handful of guys. Si Griffis and Taffy Abel and Hap Day on my team. Joe Mullen who I just missed out on. I learned that Larmer was a good two-way player, I always remembered him just as a super skill guy. I read a bunch about Gilbert Perreault and lifted him up a couple notches on the "icon" scale ... Quebec really loved that guy.

Best assembled line of the draft: I can't rank this, but I did the best job I've ever done trying to build balanced lines. Mostly playmakers at center, a winger tough-guy grinder and a skilled winger. Really like my mix, especially the Luc Robitaille - Joe Primeau - Steve Larmer line.

A funny/dramatic story (related to the ATD) you've learned about since the start of the draft: I like quotes more than stories, and the old referee who called Sprague and Odie Cleghorn "a disgrace to hockey" is a good one.

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Old
03-15-2017, 06:45 PM
  #3
VanIslander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
13th round: Esa Tikkanen. Meh. Just a guy.
Did you read the linked info?



This guy was a 4-time Selke finalist who in the postseason was one of the best over an 8-year stretch (almost all of those years post-Getzky) scoring 100 playoff points, scoring 52 goals, one less than Neely and three less than playoff leaders over that 8-year stretch Lemieux and Messier (!!). He also scored four playoff OT goals over that stretch!

You don't have to be old enough to remember how awesome The Grate One was in the clutch to appreciate his greatness.

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Old
03-15-2017, 06:56 PM
  #4
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Richard being a reach at 11 seems pretty bizarre to me.

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Old
03-15-2017, 09:25 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarek View Post
Richard being a reach at 11 seems pretty bizarre to me.
Huh? .. Oh, I see,... here's the craziness:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ck26
Rocket ahead of Mikita / Morenz / Robinson / Fetisov?
I'd love to hear why the puzzlement.

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Old
03-15-2017, 09:37 PM
  #6
jarek
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
I'd love to hear why the puzzlement.
ck26 obviously doesn't seem to like one dimensional wingers.

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Old
03-15-2017, 09:48 PM
  #7
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by jarek View Post
ck26 obviously doesn't seem to like one dimensional wingers.
Maurice has said his brother Henri is better at everything except putting the puck in the net.

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Old
03-15-2017, 09:58 PM
  #8
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VI, your PM is full

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Old
03-16-2017, 12:16 AM
  #9
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by Namba 17 View Post
VI, your PM is full
You had a lot to do with that.

...

Fixed now.

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Old
03-16-2017, 09:18 AM
  #10
ResilientBeast
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Iginla worst in the 4th round how?!?

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Old
03-17-2017, 02:45 AM
  #11
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ck26 View Post
6th round: Cowley at 139 is great, Recchi at 141 is ehh.
Let's play a game..... it's called guess the identity of the mystery man!

10 Season vs. X
Mystery Man - 84.3
Bernie Geoffrion - 83.4

7 Season vs. X
Mystery Man- 88.4
Bernie Geoffrion - 89.9

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Old
03-17-2017, 04:19 AM
  #12
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Hey, at least he was brave enough to start this out. Let's get everyone else's lists out there.

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Old
03-17-2017, 08:00 AM
  #13
ResilientBeast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Let's play a game..... it's called guess the identity of the mystery man!

10 Season vs. X
Mystery Man - 84.3
Bernie Geoffrion - 83.4

7 Season vs. X
Mystery Man- 88.4
Bernie Geoffrion - 89.9
Goals Scoring Finishes
Mystery Man - 9
Bernie Geoffrion - 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 9

Points Finishes
Mystery Man - 3, 4, 5, 10
Bernie Geoffrion - 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7

Assist Finishes
Mystery Man - 1, 4, 7, 9
Bernie Geoffrion - 6, 6, 6, 7, 10

AST Voting
Mystery Man - 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, 11
Bernie Geoffrion - 1, 2, 2

I think just using VsX is a little misleading one of these players is very clearly better

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Old
03-17-2017, 11:09 AM
  #14
ResilientBeast
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Best selection: You cannot vote for players you own
1st round: Guy Lafleur
2nd round: Patrick Roy or Bryan Trottier
3rd round: N/A
4th round: Joe Malone
5th round: Nels Stewart
6th round: Evgeni Malkin
7th round: Erik Karlsson
8th round: Alexander Yakushev
9th round: Rick Middleton
10th round: Frank Fredrickson
11th round: Duke Keats
12nd round: Toe Blake
13th round: Lester Patrick
14th round: Anatoli Tarasov
15th round: Tommy Smith
16th round: Ken Mosdell/Pit Lepine
17th round:
18th round:
19th round:
20th round:
21st round:
22nd round:
23th round:
24th round:
25th round:

'Worst' Selection
1st round:
2nd round:
3rd round:
4th round:
5th round:
6th round:
7th round:
8th round:
9th round:
10th round:
11th round:
12nd round:
13th round:
14th round:
15th round:
16th round:
17th round:
18th round:
19th round:
20th round:
21st round:
22nd round:
23th round:
24th round:
25th round:

I'll fill out the rest, coaches are plentiful in my best pick list just because of the strategic value of grabbing a high tier coach right before serious runs happened

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Old
03-17-2017, 02:30 PM
  #15
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResilientBeast View Post
Goals Scoring Finishes
Mystery Man - 9
Bernie Geoffrion - 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 9

Points Finishes
Mystery Man - 3, 4, 5, 10
Bernie Geoffrion - 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7

Assist Finishes
Mystery Man - 1, 4, 7, 9
Bernie Geoffrion - 6, 6, 6, 7, 10
For starters, the vs. x system was created because placements on scoring leaderboards are not equal across the entire history of the NHL.

Most importantly here, Geoffrion was not often the driver of his team's offense. Geoffrion only twice lead his team in scoring. He was second twice more. Mark Recchi, on the other hand, led his team in scoring 8 times.

Yes, Geoffrion played with much better player, so he shouldn't be expected to lead his team in scoring as many times. The other side of that coin, though, is that his offensive achievements get inflated by being surrounded by such talent.

Even if you want to ignore the above, I suppose it's a peak vs. longevity thing with these guys. Geoffrion had a better peak, that's definitely true. His top few seasons are better than Recchi's. After that, Recchi's quickly closes the gap and passes him.... then piles on.

Quote:
AST Voting
Mystery Man - 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 7, 7, 11
Bernie Geoffrion - 1, 2, 2
One certainly had a higher peak, according to the award voters.

Quote:
I think just using VsX is a little misleading one of these players is very clearly better
I didn't claim one was better than the other. I just posted the numbers for people to see.

Having said that, however, I'm not sure how you can say one if "very clearly better" after looking at those vs. x scores. Those scores are essentially equal. So, for one guy to be better, he'd have to bring other things to the table. The only real gap in their intangibles appears to be Recchi's advantage as a defensive player.

I do think Geoffrion is a better all-time player. I do value peak more than longevity, and Geoffrion certainly peaked higher. However, I don't see a big difference between them - certainly not a difference of 80 spots in the draft.

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Old
03-17-2017, 02:41 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
For starters, the vs. x system was created because placements on scoring leaderboards are not equal across the entire history of the NHL.

Most importantly here, Geoffrion was not often the driver of his team's offense. Geoffrion only twice lead his team in scoring. He was second twice more. Mark Recchi, on the other hand, led his team in scoring 8 times.

Yes, Geoffrion played with much better player, so he shouldn't be expected to lead his team in scoring as many times. The other side of that coin, though, is that his offensive achievements get inflated by being surrounded by such talent.

Even if you want to ignore the above, I suppose it's a peak vs. longevity thing with these guys. Geoffrion had a better peak, that's definitely true. His top few seasons are better than Recchi's. After that, Recchi's quickly closes the gap and passes him.... then piles on.



One certainly had a higher peak, according to the award voters.



I didn't claim one was better than the other. I just posted the numbers for people to see.

Having said that, however, I'm not sure how you can say one if "very clearly better" after looking at those vs. x scores. Those scores are essentially equal. So, for one guy to be better, he'd have to bring other things to the table. The only real gap in their intangibles appears to be Recchi's advantage as a defensive player.

I do think Geoffrion is a better all-time player. I do value peak more than longevity, and Geoffrion certainly peaked higher. However, I don't see a big difference between them - certainly not a difference of 80 spots in the draft.
Eye test and third party opinion clearly means nothing to you then. Geoffrion was viewed as a superstar in North America, Recchi as we know not many people even considered him a star let alone a superstar.

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Old
03-17-2017, 02:54 PM
  #17
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Dreakmur, surely you don't think goals and assists have the same value?

Sure, sometimes an assist is worth more, when a player dekes out the entire opposing team and passes it off for a tap in. But on average, a 40-40 player is a much better player than 20-60 player.

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Old
03-17-2017, 02:59 PM
  #18
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
For starters, the vs. x system was created because placements on scoring leaderboards are not equal across the entire history of the NHL.

Most importantly here, Geoffrion was not often the driver of his team's offense. Geoffrion only twice lead his team in scoring. He was second twice more. Mark Recchi, on the other hand, led his team in scoring 8 times.

Yes, Geoffrion played with much better player, so he shouldn't be expected to lead his team in scoring as many times. The other side of that coin, though, is that his offensive achievements get inflated by being surrounded by such talent.

Even if you want to ignore the above, I suppose it's a peak vs. longevity thing with these guys. Geoffrion had a better peak, that's definitely true. His top few seasons are better than Recchi's. After that, Recchi's quickly closes the gap and passes him.... then piles on.



One certainly had a higher peak, according to the award voters.



I didn't claim one was better than the other. I just posted the numbers for people to see.

Having said that, however, I'm not sure how you can say one if "very clearly better" after looking at those vs. x scores. Those scores are essentially equal. So, for one guy to be better, he'd have to bring other things to the table. The only real gap in their intangibles appears to be Recchi's advantage as a defensive player.

I do think Geoffrion is a better all-time player. I do value peak more than longevity, and Geoffrion certainly peaked higher. However, I don't see a big difference between them - certainly not a difference of 80 spots in the draft.
Let's take a look at their PPG (point per game) finishes:

Geoffrion

Goals-Per-Game: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8
Assists-Per-Game: 2, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9
Points-Per-Game: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10

Recchi

Goals-Per-Game:
Assists-Per-Game: 4, 6, 10
Points-Per-Game: 4, 6, 10

A system like VsX affects players like Geoffrion more negatively than average because he's one of those players who was often injured in the regular season but not for that many games.From this, his PPG numbers have value and are not extracted from very short seasons.This is even truer considering his outstanding playoff performances.Recchi, OTOH, was rarely injured and so his VsX score is a glorification of his actual per-game impact.

Geoffrion was just as dominant on a per-game basis as Bathgate.As we can see from the stats I posted, Recchi isn't even in the same universe.

Take note that for all Recchi's reputation as a good playmaker for a winger, Geoffrion was better even though he had a goalscoring bias.Geoffrion was known for making great plays, especially on the PP point.To think of him as a mere brainless triggerman is incorrect.

Geoffrion was also the most consistant and best scorer of the mega-dynasty of the late-50s.On top of this, he had a short temper and was riskier to "mess with" than Recchi.

I do think this comparison was gratuitous.I have very clearly shown the PPG numbers in my Geoffrion biography and they should have rang a bell.

Special Skills

Geoffrion: PP point, stick fight
Recchi: Medecine


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-17-2017 at 03:27 PM.
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Old
03-17-2017, 03:10 PM
  #19
BenchBrawl
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Geoffrion vs Lindsay

Point-per-game numbers

Geoffrion

Points-Per-Game: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10

Lindsay

Points-Per-Game: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10

Both players were identically dominant offensively in the regular season on a per-game basis.

Lindsay was healthier, and obviously was a superior all-around player.Geoffrion was a better playoff performer, and not by a small margin.

The only reason to take Lindsay ahead of Geoffrion is to "calculate" his all-around game edge + his superior regular season health, then substract Geoffrion's edge in the playoffs to this, and conclude that this value is positive.It probably is, but the difference isn't that big.

About health, here's how many games they missed in their best 9 seasons (did this quickly and in good faith):

Geoffrion:

29
28
16
11
11
11
8
8
6

Lindsay

21
20
10
3
3
1
0
0
0

Missing around 10 games many times hurts Geoffrion's VsX score.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 03-17-2017 at 03:23 PM.
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Old
03-17-2017, 03:31 PM
  #20
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ck26... who would you have picked instead of Nazzy?

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Old
03-17-2017, 03:35 PM
  #21
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Let's take a look at their PPG (point per game) finishes:

Geoffrion

Goals-Per-Game: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 6, 6, 8
Assists-Per-Game: 2, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9
Points-Per-Game: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10

Recchi

Goals-Per-Game:
Assists-Per-Game: 4, 6, 10
Points-Per-Game: 4, 6, 10

A system like VsX affects players like Geoffrion more negatively than average because he's one of those players who was often injured in the regular season but not for that many games.From this, his PPG numbers have value and are not extracted from very short seasons.This is even truer considering his outstanding playoff performances.Recchi, OTOH, was rarely injured and so his VsX score is a glorification of his actual per-game impact.
Yes, Geoffrion was often injured. That hurt his production. Why are we pretending injuries will not happen over an ATD season?

Quote:
Geoffrion was just as dominant on a per-game basis as Bathgate.As we can see from the stats I posted, Recchi isn't even in the same universe.
Not as Bathgate, no.

Quote:
Take note that for all Recchi's reputation as a good playmaker for a winger, Geoffrion was better even though he had a goalscorer bias.Geoffrion was known for making great plays, especially on the PP point.To think of him as a mere brainless triggerman is incorrect.
As said before, Geoffrion was not a driving force for his team's offense.

Quote:
Geoffrion was also the most consistant and best scorer of the mega-dynasty of the late-50s.
Yes, he was excellent in the play-offs.

Quote:
Special Skills

Geoffrion: PP point, stick fight
Recchi: Medecine
Too bad they weren't team mates. Recchi might help Geoffrion stay healthy.

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03-17-2017, 03:40 PM
  #22
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
Geoffrion vs Lindsay

Point-per-game numbers

Geoffrion

Points-Per-Game: 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 10

Lindsay

Points-Per-Game: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10

Both players were identically dominant offensively in the regular season on a per-game basis.
If Ted Lindasy was a one-dimensional offensive player he'd fall in the draft.

Quote:
Lindsay was healthier, and obviously was a superior all-around player.Geoffrion was a better playoff performer, and not by a small margin.

The only reason to take Lindsay ahead of Geoffrion is to "calculate" his all-around game edge + his superior regular season health, then substract Geoffrion's edge in the playoffs to this, and conclude that this value is positive.It probably is, but the difference isn't that big.

About health, here's how many games they missed in their best 9 seasons (did this quickly and in good faith):

Geoffrion:

29
28
16
11
11
11
8
8
6

Lindsay

21
20
10
3
3
1
0
0
0

Missing around 10 games many times hurts Geoffrion's VsX score.
Again, I think being injured a lot is a bad thing. A guy who was always injured during his career is going to be injured during the ATD season. So yeah, he'll score at a better rate than a guy like Mark Recchi, but at the end of the season, their totals will be about the same.

If we want to do just a per-game thing, you should have taken Lindros instead of Messier.

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03-17-2017, 03:41 PM
  #23
BenchBrawl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Yes, Geoffrion was often injured. That hurt his production. Why are we pretending injuries will not happen over an ATD season?
I'm not pretending they won't happen.It's you who pretend a player who scores 80 points in 80 games is roughly the same as a player who scores 80 points in 55 games.

Quote:
Not as Bathgate, no.
Geoffrion > Bathgate

Quote:
As said before, Geoffrion was not a driving force for his team's offense.
Geoffrion was a driving force for his team's offense, even if he wasn't the only one.

No one wins two Art Ross without being an offensive driving force.

Quote:
Yes, he was excellent in the play-offs.
Which counts for a lot more than not missing 10 games in the regular season.

Quote:
Too bad they weren't team mates. Recchi might help Geoffrion stay healthy.

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03-17-2017, 03:44 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
If Ted Lindasy was a one-dimensional offensive player he'd fall in the draft.



Again, I think being injured a lot is a bad thing. A guy who was always injured during his career is going to be injured during the ATD season. So yeah, he'll score at a better rate than a guy like Mark Recchi, but at the end of the season, their totals will be about the same.

If we want to do just a per-game thing, you should have taken Lindros instead of Messier.
Geoffrion was not injured in the playoffs.

Point-per-game is a good stat to consider, even if it shouldn't be taken as the only stat.I think a VsX score number should be given with a Per-Game VsX score number.That way we can find the guys like Recchi who's VsX score overglorify their talent because they were healthy.They are in-season compilers, as their poor Top 10 finishes and PPG numbers reveal.Health has value, but it doesn't have all the value or as much value as you think it has.

Hey, if you enjoy making silly comparisons like "A has a similar VsX score than B, therefore A is close to B", without any consideration for a player's per-game impact, then have fun.

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03-17-2017, 03:48 PM
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Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I'm not pretending they won't happen.It's you who pretend a player who scores 80 points in 80 games is roughly the same as a player who scores 80 points in 55 games.
They aren't the same, but at the end of the day, how different were their impacts on the whole season?

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Geoffrion was a driving force for his team's offense, even if he wasn't the only one.

No one wins two Art Ross without being an offensive driving force.
Whoa now.... Geoffrion's 1st Art Ross was won because Maurice Richard was suspended. I thought PPG was more important.

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Which counts for a lot more than not missing 10 games in the regular season.
Assuming your team is stacked enough to win without you, yeah, you're probably right.

If your team needs you to make the play-offs, it's probably not.

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I thought you'd like that...

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