HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Explain Torts' System

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-26-2009, 05:47 PM
  #26
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
 
n8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: san francisco
Country: United States
Posts: 7,407
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
He plays an up tempo, aggressive forechecking game whos purpose is to put pressure on the other teams defense deep in the zone with more scoring chances coming from creating the turnovers at the other teams blueline as well as the red line.
This description makes me think back to that game vs the Sharks where we forechecked the crap out of them and dominated them for like 2 periods. Those two periods were a thing of beauty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Nah the key for Tortorella in NY will be to be able to design a alternate transition mechanisim to back up his high-defensive-plays-on-your-own-defensive-blueline-which-open-up-ice-in-the-neutral-zone approch because that approch will never work against the AO's and co in this league. We need to be able to get the puck across the ice when we win it deep in our own end, and then keep it there in the attackingzone.
It sounds like the trap is a neutral zone transition mechanism. The aggressive forecheck is a transition mechanism closer to the oppositions end of the ice. we need a defensive zone transition mechanism when we just get the puck in our zone and move the puck up. i.e. how do we transition from a turnover/takeaway into either an attack or getting ourselves into a position to attack? do teams ever get the puck out of our zone and immediately send the puck back in using the impending off sides to make that transition to BOTH move up the ice and get fresh players on?

n8 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2009, 05:52 PM
  #27
HockeyBasedNYC
Registered User
 
HockeyBasedNYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Here
Country: United States
Posts: 12,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by n8 View Post
This description makes me think back to that game vs the Sharks where we forechecked the crap out of them and dominated them for like 2 periods. Those two periods were a thing of beauty.
Thats the key though, 2 periods. The conditioning needs to be there to sustain it through Overtime if necessary - and thats why he's been focusing on conditioning so much this offseason and in the upcoming training camp.

HockeyBasedNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2009, 06:45 PM
  #28
HoosierDaddy
Registered User
 
HoosierDaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 1,052
vCash: 500
Our best puck carriers from last year (Gomer, Zherdev) will not be on the team this year (Dubi's not signed), so getting the puck into the offensive zone will be a challenge. And expecting our D to handle the transition game with potentially 2 rookies and several young and developing players is asking for trouble. Throw in a freak injury to Lundqvist, or Gabby and we're up the creek without a paddle.

Say all you want about Totrutella's "system", but he's going to find that not having Vinnie and MSL will not be easy. Sorta reminds me of how our Illustroius GM for Life "Coached" the Gretzky Oilers to their Cups.

HoosierDaddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2009, 07:03 PM
  #29
AXN
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,451
vCash: 500
You know what really happened to Colorado and Tampa Bay after the lockout, their third lines began to disappear. The had to dump players to get under the salary cap. Their third lines could not score into a barn. The same thing happened to Carolina. Those teams where very deep from 1 to 3 lines. They just could not hold on to any of their third liners while the first liners where resigned. If the Rangers get a third line that can play offense than they will be just fine.

The best way to break the trap is to dump in when you have nowhere to go instead of trying to go through them. You make less mistakes.

AXN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-26-2009, 08:38 PM
  #30
pwoz
Registered User
 
pwoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 2,540
vCash: 500
Some great posts, so I won't bother repeating "conditioning" or "safe is death".. but let's put it in simple terms.

If you don't give 110%, you're benched.

pwoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 02:52 AM
  #31
BKBlackRanger
My Glove******Instagram
 
BKBlackRanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Richland, Wa
Country: Barbados
Posts: 569
vCash: 500
do you think he'll play some variation on the left wing lock to make up for d-men standing up at their blueline?

BKBlackRanger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 03:03 AM
  #32
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,891
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoosierDaddy View Post
Our best puck carriers from last year (Gomer, Zherdev) will not be on the team this year (Dubi's not signed), so getting the puck into the offensive zone will be a challenge. And expecting our D to handle the transition game with potentially 2 rookies and several young and developing players is asking for trouble. Throw in a freak injury to Lundqvist, or Gabby and we're up the creek without a paddle.

Say all you want about Totrutella's "system", but he's going to find that not having Vinnie and MSL will not be easy. Sorta reminds me of how our Illustroius GM for Life "Coached" the Gretzky Oilers to their Cups.
Yeah, to me the key for the future is to look at a team like Detroit -- but also Boston Bruins and copy what they do well.

And I think thats tricky. Why? Well when Boston or Detroit makes a successful play its often by making a really fast long pass up ice and they hit the other team with their speed. Thats not so hard to copy, right? Well the problem that I see is that all teams trys to make thoose plays, what Boston and Detroit does diffrently is in the situations where they can't make thoose fast and long plays. Then they often turns back and goes back into their own zone -- they use the entire ice. They don't "gamble" with a 50/50 pass. And I remember Girardi, or was it Mara, say how Torts wanted his team to always go forward forward forward... Like thats great 80% of the time or something like that, but what a team like Boston does is to not go forward 20% of the time and thoose 20% of the time is what makes the diffrence.

The positive thing is that despite what Torts seems to have preached to his players, he was quoted after the Washington series several times complaining on the team because we had not been able to keep the puck within the team. So hopefully he will be on it.

And that seems to be something of a signum for Torts. Like you listen to what he says in the press and stuff like that and its very easy to draw a conclusion about what players will fit on his team and what players definitly won't fit in to his plans. For example, a D like Dan Boyle would definitly be a complete and utter misfit under Torts... Or that is what one must think atleast, he wants his D's to move the puck up ice ASAP all the time and he wants his D's to be able to step up and make high defensive plays, Boyle always hangs on to the puck and is to weak to step up and make defensive plays. But instead Boyle was a great fit under Torts, so my conclusion is that as long as someone gets the job done Torts is willing to overlook his "philosopy". He isn't J. Lemiere II and thats a great thing.

Ola is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 03:36 AM
  #33
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 29,171
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoosierDaddy View Post
Our best puck carriers from last year (Gomer, Zherdev) will not be on the team this year (Dubi's not signed), so getting the puck into the offensive zone will be a challenge. And expecting our D to handle the transition game with potentially 2 rookies and several young and developing players is asking for trouble. Throw in a freak injury to Lundqvist, or Gabby and we're up the creek without a paddle.

Say all you want about Totrutella's "system", but he's going to find that not having Vinnie and MSL will not be easy. Sorta reminds me of how our Illustroius GM for Life "Coached" the Gretzky Oilers to their Cups.
The funny thing is that pretty much whoever makes the team on defense as a rookie will be better puck movers than Mara who never had any touch on his passes. I am not expecting miracles, I am expecting progress.

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 09:17 AM
  #34
HockeyBasedNYC
Registered User
 
HockeyBasedNYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Here
Country: United States
Posts: 12,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
The funny thing is that pretty much whoever makes the team on defense as a rookie will be better puck movers than Mara who never had any touch on his passes. I am not expecting miracles, I am expecting progress.
And Mara had a really bad habit of never getting to the redline when dumping it down, causing the Rangers a lot of unnecessary icings. He did a little better with it last year, but I've noticed its always been a bad habit of his.

HockeyBasedNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:26 AM
  #35
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,891
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
The funny thing is that pretty much whoever makes the team on defense as a rookie will be better puck movers than Mara who never had any touch on his passes. I am not expecting miracles, I am expecting progress.
I agree.

And you know what, like any D who was 15-18 years or younger in the mid 90's (like born in 1978 or younger) was told to never skate with the puck comming out of his own end. They never got a chance to develop thoose abilitys in the trap era. Like look at the D's who were older then that; the Leetch's, Coffey's, Housley's, Zubov's and co, there were always like a handful of awsome puckmoving D's in this league, and compare that number to the puckmoving D's who were born like from 1978 or sooner. Like Boyle and Campbell aren't on the same planet as Leetch and co. Leetch was as skilled as the most skilled forward basically, how much of a diffrence in skill is there between Campbell and Ilya Kovalchuk? Its ridiculos.

So everything about rushing the puck was lost to that whole generation.

The new generation of D's comming up today though is told by their coaches from when they are young to rush the puck, to be creative with it comming up ice. I definitly belive that these young D's in the future will be a helluva lot better in thoose aspect compared to the Mara's and co.

I would definitly not be a stranger to starting with a blueline like this;
Staal-Girardi//Could PK and handle the megastars we have close by in our division/conferenc
MDZ-Rozsival//Rozi isn't a defensiveminded D, but he actually works well with a offensiveminded D next to him. He didn't got much credit, but for 20+ games he played on a 1st pair in the Atlantic with Thomas Pck next to him one season for example.
Redden-Gilroy//Redden played pretty much with Mezaros in OTT.

Ola is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:28 AM
  #36
Staggarelli
@erikthedirector
 
Staggarelli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Cincinnati
Country: United States
Posts: 1,158
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Staggarelli
Lots of great posts on this thread esp by Ola and HBNYC. Great Read. Thanks guys!

Staggarelli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 11:42 AM
  #37
Vitto79
Registered User
 
Vitto79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sarnia
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,765
vCash: 500
I am for moving Rozsival of they can save some cash and get new blood in BUT I am thinking Torts system could help him out plus he will come into the year healthy

he had a solid offensive year 2 years ago so why can't he do it again?

Go Rozy!

Vitto79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 12:04 PM
  #38
HockeyBasedNYC
Registered User
 
HockeyBasedNYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Here
Country: United States
Posts: 12,971
vCash: 500
I am not so down on Rozy... as some others are here.

Hes a mobile defensmen that can do a lot of things in this system and he has proven to me that he is willing to show up when its on the line.

The problem is his cap#... but i can't get to wrapped up in that considering all the rookies coming up on D. I think he has to be here this year.

As far as how hell relate to the system and Torts - hes gonna have to shoot the puck. And hes got the conditioning and ability to do what Torts needs him to do, so i think with some work he could be a worthy soldier for Tortorella. I think hell want to see a little more push from him in the D zone and around the net though.

HockeyBasedNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 01:21 PM
  #39
BigCanada77
NYR in the Midwest
 
BigCanada77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,817
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to BigCanada77
Welcome to the University of Hockey, with Professors Ola and HBNYC. Great job guys. Really long posts are usually a pain to read, but these are great.

BigCanada77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 01:28 PM
  #40
BwayBshirt
Registered User
 
BwayBshirt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: My NY State of Mind
Country: United States
Posts: 3,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AXN View Post
You know what really happened to Colorado and Tampa Bay after the lockout, their third lines began to disappear. The had to dump players to get under the salary cap. Their third lines could not score into a barn. The same thing happened to Carolina. Those teams where very deep from 1 to 3 lines. They just could not hold on to any of their third liners while the first liners where resigned. If the Rangers get a third line that can play offense than they will be just fine.

The best way to break the trap is to dump in when you have nowhere to go instead of trying to go through them. You make less mistakes.
Good point AXN. I was thinking this reading some of this thread as well.

After the lockout Tortorella had no depth to work with anywhere, had no goaltending, and the same defense which was solidly built for the Cup run was also out of place after the lockout.

He still should have tweaked his system so John Grahame/Sean Burke weren't exposed to all hell breaking loose. But at the same time that's what makes his tenure with the Rangers more appealing b/c he has that elite goalie to lean on more.

BwayBshirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 01:51 PM
  #41
HockeyBasedNYC
Registered User
 
HockeyBasedNYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Here
Country: United States
Posts: 12,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWayBShirt View Post
Good point AXN. I was thinking this reading some of this thread as well.

After the lockout Tortorella had no depth to work with anywhere, had no goaltending, and the same defense which was solidly built for the Cup run was also out of place after the lockout.

He still should have tweaked his system so John Grahame/Sean Burke weren't exposed to all hell breaking loose. But at the same time that's what makes his tenure with the Rangers more appealing b/c he has that elite goalie to lean on more.
All i could think of was this when the Rangers hired Tortorella.

I can't count how many times i remember seeing highlights of Torts heated expression on his face after a bad goal let up by one of those guys, or a round table discussion about Tortorella and his goaltending situation trying to get someone in there to stop the puck.

He really has a long line with all the slack Henrik gives him to really push the envelope here. But it comes with some drawbacks if the current roster isnt capable of supporting such a philosophy at full bore. It also puts a ton of stress on Henrik and I'm interested in what JT's plans are as far as his workload goes this season, and if he will rely on Vally for more games than we've seen in the past.

HockeyBasedNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 03:14 PM
  #42
94now
Registered User
 
94now's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Snow Belt, USA
Country: United Nations
Posts: 6,445
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwoz View Post
If you don't give 110%, you're benched.
With this anyone could coach NHL team successfully. Yet such a simple formula doesn't necessarily work. It is even irrelevant once you read this thread.

94now is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 04:01 PM
  #43
mm11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,139
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
All i could think of was this when the Rangers hired Tortorella.

I can't count how many times i remember seeing highlights of Torts heated expression on his face after a bad goal let up by one of those guys, or a round table discussion about Tortorella and his goaltending situation trying to get someone in there to stop the puck.

He really has a long line with all the slack Henrik gives him to really push the envelope here. But it comes with some drawbacks if the current roster isnt capable of supporting such a philosophy at full bore. It also puts a ton of stress on Henrik and I'm interested in what JT's plans are as far as his workload goes this season, and if he will rely on Vally for more games than we've seen in the past.
Correct me if I am wrong, will this be Hank's 5th NHL season now? All 4 NHL seasons so far were behind a defensive minded , should I say "stiffling clog up the neutral zone" coaching philosophy. Is that fair to say yes/no? OK ,4 and a half seasons maybe as Torts came in towards the end of last season. As great as Hank is, has he ever been exposed to this, leave your goalie open for odd man rushes, type of team in front of him? Hank Played average for Torts in the playoffs vrs the Caps. Had (2) great games and the rest average at best. Have to assume the Kings numbers will drop becuase of this but the rangers may win alot more games. Hank to me seems like a guy that prides himself on great numbers, his ego is fairly large and that's one of the reasons what makes him great, he wants to be the best. He is a competitor, so is Torts. Do you all see some fireworks between the two if Hank gets shelled a few times or will Hank be the pro's pro and take them for the team? Just alittle interesting side show behind the big show this year I feel. Should be a fun season atleast.

mm11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 04:29 PM
  #44
HockeyBasedNYC
Registered User
 
HockeyBasedNYC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Here
Country: United States
Posts: 12,971
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mm11 View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, will this be Hank's 5th NHL season now? All 4 NHL seasons so far were behind a defensive minded , should I say "stiffling clog up the neutral zone" coaching philosophy. Is that fair to say yes/no? OK ,4 and a half seasons maybe as Torts came in towards the end of last season. As great as Hank is, has he ever been exposed to this, leave your goalie open for odd man rushes, type of team in front of him? Hank Played average for Torts in the playoffs vrs the Caps. Had (2) great games and the rest average at best. Have to assume the Kings numbers will drop becuase of this but the rangers may win alot more games. Hank to me seems like a guy that prides himself on great numbers, his ego is fairly large and that's one of the reasons what makes him great, he wants to be the best. He is a competitor, so is Torts. Do you all see some fireworks between the two if Hank gets shelled a few times or will Hank be the pro's pro and take them for the team? Just alittle interesting side show behind the big show this year I feel. Should be a fun season atleast.
This is actually a legit question and a good one going into this year.

Yes this will be his 5th season.

Even though he has been behind a defensive system - he has been left out to dry on numerous stretches of each season. There was a studied compiled by someone about difficulty in shots faced, and Lundqvist came out on top - so while most might think his brilliant backstopping is under a blanket of defense - its not really the case as he is extremely well versed in facing difficult, high percentage chances.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=651558

http://www.fromtherink.com/2009/4/27...ave-percentage

It will be a different game for sure, with the big chances coming from the odd-man rush variety more often. But we all know how he fairs in the shootout. How this will play out over a full season remains to be seen. But like i said - if this philosophy of his is too much for this roster to handle, its also up to Tortorella to adapt if necessary, which includes giving Henrik more support.

This is another reason why Torts loves the aggressive/possession game, because it limits the chances from the other team. He knows that he also runs the chance of having high quality chances against each game, its limiting those thats important.

Henriks ego is big, but i dont see him as being a bigger than the team type of guy. But yes he is a fierce competitor, and we've seen some questionable actions on his part when it comes to taking himself out of games. I think with Renney it was a moot issue. But with Torts? Could be a different story, which is why i think this is a great question.

I think both are honest enough guys to rectify the problem if there is one, but it could get hairy at times because even though Tortorella will praise Hank as being the backbone of the team and one of the best in the NHL, he will expect him to live up to that on a nightly basis. We have seen Henrik give up some softies at times (it happens to everyone) and it will be interesting how and when Tortorella decides to put the accountability on Henriks shoulders (as it should be, at the right times).

Could they clash? Sure. It will be interesting to see how Henrik will deal with this, because it will almost be a certainty next year.


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 07-27-2009 at 04:35 PM.
HockeyBasedNYC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 05:22 PM
  #45
bassassin
Registered User
 
bassassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: England
Country: England
Posts: 5,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
He believes that if you have a thoroughbred you have to run him. Guys like Gaborik are in their own class, and in Torts' words- you have to "let him go" or do his own thing. Creative players like that are few and far between, and in a system based on offense youll want your horses on the ice the most. Especially for a guy who has the ability to smash the 50 goal mark in a wide open system like this. He used VL in the same way, and it was tough at first for him to realize that you have to really let players like that "go"

You can't play this system tentatively, or worried about injury. Its 100% or sit the bench. Tortorella knows what he needs out of his team, and hell know when to give his top 3 lines a rest. But the reason he can run 3 lines more often is for a couple of reasons. #1 is that he stresses conditioning levels be at the maximum. Hes already stated that the practice habits of this team "stunk" last year.

This allows the team to compete at a higher level for the duration of the game. It wont prevent against injury, but it will guard against fatigue, and thats when injuries are more likely to occur.

He also believes that when you are an aggressive team and are forcing the issue, its an easier game to play then if you are on defense - and hes right. When your chasing and running around guarding players its a much tougher stop and go game then if you are dictating the play and have possession more often.

If it turns out the personnel is wrong for this type of system, then he has to be a smart enough coach to be able to adapt... and i think he is. Hes honest with the players and more importantly hes honest with himself. It seemed like he did a bit of growing when he was out of the game and realized that if things dont work out, you cant always press the issue even if you think its the right way to play. You have to back up and take another look at what you have and what you will need to do to succeed.

We'll see if Slats has brought in the right type of players to support such a system at full throttle.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said in this thread, btw he has a solution to the fitness thing --- Camp Torturella --- it is always fun, and i'm sure the Rangers will love being introduced to that whole new world of pain.

But the thing about Torts is he doesnt adapt, he cant. His system works it really does, but the players need to believe in it. And you need the right players.

I mean he brought Sullivan with him, he is moaning about fitness that is the same old Torts. You wont see any other changes, that is why he left Tampa we didnt have the defense/goalies to handle that system, the dmen have to be very good at pinching and the goalie has to be very good.

However 1 thing Torts now has is an amazing goalie in Lundqvist that is a big part of it, since Bulin the system hasnt worked just simply due to the ****** goalies. Grahame/Burke and Denis/Holmqvist are all crap, I think shown by the fact that none of them are playing in the NHL anymore and they werent last season either.

I mean when we had a half decent forward group and d corp in 06-07 he managed to nearly get us past New Jersey despite the fact we had tweedle dum and tweedle ****wit in net. But he has his faults as in that series New Jersey was just keeping a man out by the blueline and getting lots of odd man rushes because of it. And he didnt adjust, and with a good goalie it wouldnt have shown up his system as much but he still didnt adapt to our crap goalies.

So what i'm saying is it could work, and hell either way it will be fun to watch, but if Lundqvist gets injured you are screwed as Torts will not change.

bassassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 06:08 PM
  #46
GarretJoseph*
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 7,604
vCash: 500
Didn't Olga write a whole thread about this a while ago?

GarretJoseph* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-27-2009, 06:23 PM
  #47
Riche16
McCready guitar god
 
Riche16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: FL
Country: United States
Posts: 3,740
vCash: 500
I think Hank will be fine with the extra "work" he may be getting. As long as one goal against doesn't = loss.

It looked to me like towards the end of the Renney era you could just tell that once he let one in he KNEW the game was over.

Riche16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:04 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.